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Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
I believe CA's opening statement to be accurate and if we escape from our inbred prejudices, very reasonable. Attacks against Catholic writings, liturgy and history are separate issues. Looking beyond scripture does not mean accepting everything else or an endorsement of Catholic theology, it means that there are ways to truth and wisdom outside of our particular version of the Bible. To say that all we should study is one particular compilation of religious writings is absurd. Out of all of history and all nations of the Earth, divine truth evidently only visited the Jews and a couple of early gentile converts. Yet I have to believe such because they're God's choosen people. It says so right here in the book they themselves wrote.Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2009,21:31) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Just because Catholics are given the Holy Spirit to live inside them doesn't abolish the need for teachers. I should hardly have to tell you that these two Scriptures I quoted are the tip of the iceberg on the subject.
God does not contradict himself so he meant what he stated in Jeremiah 31 as well as what he meant in Matthew 28. The question then is “how do you interpret those two scriptures so they do not contradict?” The answer comes in two parts. The first is that one must hear and believe the good news of the new covenant before you can receive the Holy Spirit and even then you must be led to God. The second is the Holy Spirit is your councilor and thus gives you an ear to hear and discern what comes from God and what is from the devil. In this way you can listen to a teacher and determine if his teacher is true or false because putting your faith in man if foolishness.
Well…your argument necessarily leads to begging the question, what is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit. Your Sola Scriptura premise hasn't even been proved yet. So you can't exactly appeal to that when you haven't even proved to me what books belong in the Bible and why?Back up a bit. I encourage you to take my challenge and show me ONE Scripture that says that Scripture is our only rule of faith.
Are you up to it?
Quote (Cato @ Sep. 24 2009,05:46) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
I believe CA's opening statement to be accurate and if we escape from our inbred prejudices, very reasonable. Attacks against Catholic writings, liturgy and history are separate issues. Looking beyond scripture does not mean accepting everything else or an endorsement of Catholic theology, it means that there are ways to truth and wisdom outside of our particular version of the Bible. To say that all we should study is one particular compilation of religious writings is absurd. Out of all of history and all nations of the Earth, divine truth evidently only visited the Jews and a couple of early gentile converts. Yet I have to believe such because they're God's choosen people. It says so right here in the book they themselves wrote.
Thanks for your honesty Cato. A lot of people have rejected Christianity because the version of it they were taught was a religion of the book. They couldn't logically put that one together…so they got caught up in relativism. (something we reject, but a more palatable solution to some than Protestant fundamentalism)Hi CA,
Religion is defined in James and bears little resemblance to your series of rituals and liturgies that require no faith to be performed.God is not how you see Him and your ways are highly offensive to Him.
Hi CA,
How palatable is the invitation of God to be saved offered in Jn3, Acts 2.37?
Those who refuse that offer remain under the wrath of God.[Jn3]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 24 2009,14:07) Hi CA,
Religion is defined in James and bears little resemblance to your series of rituals and liturgies that require no faith to be performed.God is not how you see Him and your ways are highly offensive to Him.
I suppose you would think that Mother Theresa of Calcutta bears little resemblance to religion as well?Hi CA,
Compare James.
Of course we must seek first the kingdom.
Good works are the fruit of the Spirit living and working through the body of Christ.Are you trying to hide behind her skirts now?
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote Your Sola Scriptura premise hasn't even been proved yet. So you can't exactly appeal to that when you haven't even proved to me what books belong in the Bible and why?
I am not sure what you would call an “appeal to Sola Scriptura” as I assure you that you had best believe what God states whether it is in scripture or anywhere else. That is what I strive to do.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote Well…your argument necessarily leads to begging the question, what is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit.
Jesus teaches:
John 6:43-45(NIV) reads:
Quote “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44″No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote I encourage you to take my challenge and show me ONE Scripture that says that Scripture is our only rule of faith.
God’s word is our only rule of faith. Scripture records God’s word.
Deuteronomy 4:2(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2009,18:18) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Your Sola Scriptura premise hasn't even been proved yet. So you can't exactly appeal to that when you haven't even proved to me what books belong in the Bible and why?
I am not sure what you would call an “appeal to Sola Scriptura” as I assure you that you had best believe what God states whether it is in scripture or anywhere else. That is what I strive to do.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote Well…your argument necessarily leads to begging the question, what is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit.
Jesus teaches:
John 6:43-45(NIV) reads:
Quote “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44″No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote I encourage you to take my challenge and show me ONE Scripture that says that Scripture is our only rule of faith.
God’s word is our only rule of faith. Scripture records God’s word.
Deuteronomy 4:2(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
Your last statement says that to keep the Commandments of the LORD. You do know that LORD is the Father, right? That however was the Old Covenant that God made with Israel.
Exodus 31:16 ” Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generation as a perpatual covenant.
verse 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; in six days the LORD made the Heavens an the Earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.
That is the Covenan that He made with Moses on Mount Saina.
We are under the New Covenant in
Luke 22:20 ….” This cup is the new covenant that in My Blood, which is shed for you.
That is the covenant that we are to keep today. There is one more to come, in Hebrew I think, and I have to look that up. I will come back to that later.
Peace and Love IreneIrene wrote:
Quote Your last statement says that to keep the Commandments of the LORD. You do know that LORD is the Father, right? That however was the Old Covenant that God made with Israel.
I do realize that the Lord in Deuteronomy 4:2 is the Father but I also realize that Jesus did not violate that Scripture.
I believe you are correct that the Law of Mosses was for the Hebrew People but Jesus also taught the Hebrew people. I have been taught that it was later that his apostles went to the Gentiles. I believe the Gentiles, like the Hebrew people, are required to keep the righteous requirements of the Law. I am confident that this was a requirement since at latest the time of Noah.
It would thus seem to me that all God's words must therefore be consistent with the Law of Mosses.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2009,21:50) Irene wrote: Quote Your last statement says that to keep the Commandments of the LORD. You do know that LORD is the Father, right? That however was the Old Covenant that God made with Israel.
I do realize that the Lord in Deuteronomy 4:2 is the Father but I also realize that Jesus did not violate that Scripture.
I believe you are correct that the Law of Mosses was for the Hebrew People but Jesus also taught the Hebrew people. I have been taught that it was later that his apostles went to the Gentiles. I believe the Gentiles, like the Hebrew people, are required to keep the righteous requirements of the Law. I am confident that this was a requirement since at latest the time of Noah.
It would thus seem to me that all God's words must therefore be consistent with the Law of Mosses.
Jesus kept the Law because He was a Jew. We are under grace.
Romans 6:14 And “We are under the Blood of Christ in
Luke 22:20
” This cup is the new covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.”
And Paul in Romans 14″5 tell as us that ” One esteems one day above another, another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
Here we see that the Sabbath to some might be that since we have God's Holy, we keep every day alike and keep it Holy. That is the way I se it.
I hope I am making sense to you.
Peace and Love IreneIrene wrote:
Quote Jesus kept the Law because He was a Jew. We are under grace.
I am not saying that we are under the Law of Mosses as that was never a requirement for the Gentiles. I am saying that the message of the New Covenant is consistent with the Law of Moses.
When Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was his answer was Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. He also taught the next was to love your neighbor as yourself. This is true both of the Law of Mosses and the New Covenant. It is my belief that Love is the righteous requirements of the Law of Mosses.
Irene wrote:
Quote Here we see that the Sabbath to some might be that since we have God's Holy, we keep every day alike and keep it Holy. That is the way I se it.
That is also my tradition since in order to keep the Sabbath holy we need to do good on it and it we should do good every day. In this way we honor God and his Son.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2009,23:33) Irene wrote: Quote Jesus kept the Law because He was a Jew. We are under grace.
I am not saying that we are under the Law of Mosses as that was never a requirement for the Gentiles. I am saying that the message of the New Covenant is consistent with the Law of Moses.
When Jesus was asked what the most important commandment was his answer was Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul. He also taught the next was to love your neighbor as yourself. This is true both of the Law of Mosses and the New Covenant. It is my belief that Love is the righteous requirements of the Law of Mosses.
Irene wrote:
Quote Here we see that the Sabbath to some might be that since we have God's Holy, we keep every day alike and keep it Holy. That is the way I se it.
That is also my tradition since in order to keep the Sabbath holy we need to do good on it and it we should do good every day. In this way we honor God and his Son.
But don't you think that doing good, or keeping the Sabbath are two different things? We don't keep the Sabvath anymore because we believe that that was A requirememt for the Jewish people only.
Jesus however on the Sermon on the Mount He magnified the Law. So that is were we are. But we also read in Romans
6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are
not unde the Law, but under grace. We are under the New Covenant:” Luke 22:20..” This cup is the new covenant in My Blood, which is shed for you.” But don't get me wrong we are still sinners, John said if we say that we are not, the truth is not in us. We now hae a Mediastor between our Heavenly Father and us, Jesus Christ, and we go through Him to go to the Throne of God and ask for the forgivenss of our sins.
No other Sacrifice needed.
Peace and Lov IreneQuote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2009,18:18) CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Your Sola Scriptura premise hasn't even been proved yet. So you can't exactly appeal to that when you haven't even proved to me what books belong in the Bible and why?
I am not sure what you would call an “appeal to Sola Scriptura” as I assure you that you had best believe what God states whether it is in scripture or anywhere else. That is what I strive to do.
Of course. But is everything “God states” in Scripture?Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote Well…your argument necessarily leads to begging the question, what is necessary to receive the Holy Spirit.
Jesus teaches:
John 6:43-45(NIV) reads:
Quote “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44″No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.
First you must prove that the book of John belongs in Scripture. Then you must prove your interpretation of this or any other verse is infallibly true.
Quote CatholicApologist wrote: Quote I encourage you to take my challenge and show me ONE Scripture that says that Scripture is our only rule of faith.
God’s word is our only rule of faith. Scripture records God’s word.
Deuteronomy 4:2(NIV) reads:
Quote Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.
This verse from Deuteronomy only says that we are not suppose to add or subtract from the commandments of the LORD. It does NOT list a place to find them all. And it does NOT claim that the commands being talked about consist of ALL THAT GOD HAS SPOKEN to man.
This certainly does NOT say that the Scriptures are the only source for finding the words of God. It does NOT say that the written Scriptures are the ONLY authoritative standard for what we believe and what we do.
Is this the best you have?
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 24 2009,21:50) I have been taught that it was later that his apostles went to the Gentiles.
I thought you didn't believe you NEEDED any teachers.Quote It would thus seem to me that all God's words must therefore be consistent with the Law of Mosses. How do you know the Law of Moses is the inspired Word of God? How do you know the copies of the Torah we have today are accurate?
On what authority do you believe these commandments apply to anyone other than the children of Israel? Can you show IN the Torah where the commands are binding on the Gentiles? (Other than the alien who wants to live among the Jews)
Where do we find IN THE ACTUAL WORDS OF THE TORAH a list of the five books that should belong to it? (i.e. something that says in effect “now the books of Moses are these: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) If you can't show this, then we must argue that the Jews didn't believe in Sola Scriptura either.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote I thought you didn't believe you NEEDED any teachers.
I believe God is my teacher. If God chooses to use a human or anything else as a tool to teach me then that is his choice. I have learned much from what my teacher has written down but I have also learned by what he has taught in other ways.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote How do you know the Law of Moses is the inspired Word of God? How do you know the copies of the Torah we have today are accurate?
Jesus promised that those who hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled and he did not lie. The Law of Moses is for useful for teaching me in righteousness just as Peter attested. That is all that I consider important. If it is inaccurate in other ways then it is not important.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote On what authority do you believe these commandments apply to anyone other than the children of Israel?
The Law of Mosses does not apply to Gentiles but God’s commands do. The evidence I have is that God sent Jonah to Nineveh, a city of the Gentiles. I do not believe Scripture itself tells us what obedience to God’s commands is demanded of the Gentiles but a Jewish religious theory is that Gentiles must adhere to the seven laws of Noah. The Law of Mosses also adheres to these laws. Jesus taught us must the same by summing up those laws as Love the Lord you God with all your heart, mind, and soul and Love your neighbor as yourself. Never the less, it is evil to add or subtract from the Word of God. Correctly applying it is not.
CatholicApologist wrote:
Quote If you can't show this, then we must argue that the Jews didn't believe in Sola Scriptura either.
That is a faulty conclusion since you are setting up a straw man argument in making a specific qualification for what is qualified as Sola Scritura. The bible accounts how the Hebrew people found the lost book of Deuteronomy and accepted it as part of Scripture because it did not contradict. We also know that the books of the prophets were added to Scripture later but only because they did not contradict and the prophets proved themselves to be true.
2 Kings 22:8-20(NIV) reads
Quote Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the LORD and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.”
Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king. When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Acbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king's attendant: “Go and inquire of the LORD for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the LORD's anger that burns against us because our fathers have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”
Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Acbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophetess Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the Second District. She said to them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 'This is what the LORD says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and provoked me to anger by all the idols their hands have made, my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.' Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the LORD, 'This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people, that they would become accursed and laid waste, and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I have heard you, declares the LORD. Therefore I will gather you to your fathers, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.' ” So they took her answer back to the king.
Quote The bible accounts how the Hebrew people found the lost book of Deuteronomy and accepted it as part of Scripture because it did not contradict. That verse you quoted did NOT say they accepted the book of Deuteronomy “because it did not contradict”. Sorry. Not there.
That is a litmus test that you made up. But please allow me to effectively challenge your test of “doesn't contradict” and refute it.
The book of Enoch….does not contradict the Bible. It is quoted in the NT. BUT IT IS NOT PART OF THE CANON YOU ACCEPT.
The epistles of Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, Clement of Rome (all men who knew at least one of the twelve apostles) do not contradict the rest of Scripture…yet their writings are NOT part of the Canon.
So we're going to need a little bit better criteria than “it doesn't contradict” to call it Scripture.
I don't know why these shaky foundations upon which you rest belief don't disturb you.
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