- This topic is empty.
- Posts
You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth.
Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
Hi CatholicApologist:
You say:
Quote But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice Has God spoken to us in some other way other than through His Word?
This what the scriptures state:
Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son…
God has spoken to me through dreams, and visions, and also in an audible voice, but all must line up with His Word or else it isn't God speaking. If not, how do you know that it is God speaking to you?
And so, who has given you the authority to make the following statement?
Quote But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice Anyone is free to believe and practice what ever they choose, but if we are striving to obey God, then what other authoritative rule is there?
Love in Christ,
MartyHi and welcome CA,
Why do you place belief in vain and ignorant men over scripture?
Are you not going to follow Jesus?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth. Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
So you look to the Pope for guidance, right?Quote God has spoken to me through dreams, and visions, and also in an audible voice, but all must line up with His Word or else it isn't God speaking. If not, how do you know that it is God speaking to you? I'm glad you asked. First, you mention “His Word”. Who told you that this is exclusive to the Sacred Scriptures? Let me ask you something in return. Who did the first Christians hear the Word of God from? The apostles…right? Jesus didn't say “Go write a book”. He said “Go ye into all the world and PREACH the gospel” (emphasis mine) So no honest person can deny the existent of inspired “Oral Tradition” (different from the traditions of men) as well as divinely inspired “Written Tradition.” Please consider the following verse:
“Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.” – 2 Thess. 2:15
Ahh…so the apostle Paul commanded us to hold to TRADITION??? What??
And it seems here that he says that it comes in two forms: oral (by word) and written (by our epistle).
Quote And so, who has given you the authority to make the following statement? Quote
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practiceAnyone is free to believe and practice what ever they choose, but if we are striving to obey God, then what other authoritative rule is there?
I'm glad you asked this too. Please understand that the burden of proof is upon the Protestant community to defend their position. While I could quote many sources. I think at the moment it would be a distraction from the obvious statement I made previously. Nowhere does the Bible CLAIM to be the ONLY RULE FOR FAITH AND PRACTICE. Please search the Scriptures and get back to me.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2009,12:27) Hi and welcome CA,
Why do you place belief in vain and ignorant men over scripture?
Are you not going to follow Jesus?
Thanks. Great to be here.“Why do you place belief in vain and ignorant men over scripture?”
Over Scripture? Whose interpretation of Scripture? Yours? Scripture doesn't interpret itself. You yourself are proof of that.
Don't you think it is a bit “vain and ignorant” to presume that your “private interpretation” (see 2 Pet. 1:20) of Scripture is sufficient to save you?
“Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.” – 2 Peter 1:20
“Are you not going to follow Jesus?”
Of course I am. And I'm going to believe Him when he told the apostles “He that heareth you, heareth me” (Luke 10:16)
Sounds like Jesus delegated some authority there. Huh?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,12:46) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth. Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
So you look to the Pope for guidance, right?
In a pastoral sense, yes. But the Pope himself is bound to the deposit of faith expressed in the councils, the fathers, etc.We follow the Sacred Written Tradition (the Scriptures), Sacred Oral Tradition (the fathers, councils, doctors, ancient liturgical prayers), and the governing Magisterium of the CC represented by the bishops throughout the world in communion with the pope.
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15)
So according the the Scriptures, WHAT is the pillar and ground of the truth?
Hi CA,
Have you met the apostles?
Did they preach themselves or Jesus as Lord?Will your leaders be the ones you meet when you die or Jesus and will his words matter more then?
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,13:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,12:46) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth. Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
So you look to the Pope for guidance, right?
In a pastoral sense, yes. But the Pope himself is bound to the deposit of faith expressed in the councils, the fathers, etc.We follow the Sacred Written Tradition (the Scriptures), Sacred Oral Tradition (the fathers, councils, doctors, ancient liturgical prayers), and the governing Magisterium of the CC represented by the bishops throughout the world in communion with the pope.
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15)
So according the the Scriptures, WHAT is the pillar and ground of the truth?
I am not debating your pastoral guidance but I will ask you this if the one that guides you(and I do believe in Guidance) becomes corrupt and you know of the corruption should you not abandon the guidance?For instance, I am sure you are aware of the absorbtion of Paganism into the Catholic Church in such Holidays as Easter and Christmas and other practices that seem to go against the basic principles of the word of God such as Mariology or “Mary Worship”
Acceptance of Gay priests and such, do you accept this type of Guidance?
During the inquisition would you have accepted the guidance and dipped your neighbor in boiling oil?
Quote But such deceit is not without its own historical origins. In fact the Christian Bible New Testament speaks of the reigning Sadducee families of the Main Temple of Jerusalem as being wolves in sheep clothing, of hiding evil behind the garments of holiness- in other words being figures of extreme evil. That is why so many Catholic Popes are features prominently on the list of the top 25 most evil people of all time. Not because there is inherently evil in belonging to the Catholic faith. Far from it, individual Catholics around the world on any given day are responsible for the care and support of tens of millions of people, from education, to health to care to the dying and homeless.
The office of Pope is an entirely different matter. It is why Popes such as Pope Pius IX are included on the list, not only for organizing and funding the assassination conspiracy of President Abraham Lincoln, including hiding some of the plot members who returned to the Pope for safety. It is also in their supreme acts of blasphemy and defiance of their own religions such as Pope Pius IX who promptly claimed himself “infallible” and thus an untouchable god on earth, who could never be arrested and tried by the American authorities as the head of a criminal enterprise.
So the list has to do not only with how many people an individual may have ordered to be killed, but the level of historic deceit they represented by their supremely evil actions, while pretending to be honorable and/or the epitome of sanctity.
O’Collins Presents 25 Most Evil Men In History List
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/greg/?p=180Popes have been responsible for Mass murder and mayhem if you found this to be the case would you still accept their guidance?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2009,13:56) Hi CA,
Have you met the apostles?
Did they preach themselves or Jesus as Lord?Will your leaders be the ones you meet when you die or Jesus and will his words matter more then?
I've met the successors to the apostles, the presbyteros (priests).Quote Did they preach themselves or Jesus as Lord? Of course they preach Jesus as Lord.
Quote Will your leaders be the ones you meet when you die or Jesus and will his words matter more then? I will meet Jesus Christ. And I had better have obeyed those who had the rule over me.
“Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.” (KJV – as an olive branch)
Quote will his words matter more then? Forgive me. But you sound absolutely ignorant of the Catholic faith. As though we don't follow the words of Jesus…
Hi CA,
Did Jesus establish some sort of an earthly kingdom where those who appoint themselves to power can lead any hiding under their theological coattails unto salvation?
Get some salve for your eyes because those kings are wearing no clothes.Seek first the kingdom as your soul needs to be saved
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,14:03) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,13:03) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,12:46) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,11:40) You all have a very nice forum here. I am so glad to see so many seriously seeking to know God who is Truth. Most here that I have read seem to have one doctrine in common: Sola Scriptura. The idea that the Bible Alone is the only rule for faith and practice. I submit that this is a self-refuting proposition.
The Bible never claims to be the only rule for faith and practice. Scripture claims to be God-breathed or inspired. We taught the world to believe this. It claims to be inerrant. We also taught the world to believe this over a millennium before Martin Luther ever came along. It claims to be the Word of God. We also taught the world to believe this.
But the Sacred Scriptures are NOT the only authoritative rule for belief and practice
It is not sufficient. And I would submit that the wide variance of opinions held by sincere seekers is proof that it is insufficient.
Why? Because the Scriptures need to be interpreted. And herein lies the problem. Each of us is FALLABLE. And therefore so is our interpretation.
It is amazing to me to see so many who believe that the Holy Spirit was able to preserve the written text of Scripture and yet not believe that He preserved an infallible interpreter of those Scriptures.
I think this is probably a good start. Along with the obvious opposition this statement is sure to receive here. I am curious to know how many here have every really considered what I am proposing.
FYI, this is the ancient belief of every church of apostolic origin: Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopic, and Maronite.
I'm looking forward to this discussion.
CatholicApologist
So you look to the Pope for guidance, right?
In a pastoral sense, yes. But the Pope himself is bound to the deposit of faith expressed in the councils, the fathers, etc.We follow the Sacred Written Tradition (the Scriptures), Sacred Oral Tradition (the fathers, councils, doctors, ancient liturgical prayers), and the governing Magisterium of the CC represented by the bishops throughout the world in communion with the pope.
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Tim. 3:15)
So according the the Scriptures, WHAT is the pillar and ground of the truth?
I am not debating your pastoral guidance but I will ask you this if the one that guides you(and I do believe in Guidance) becomes corrupt and you know of the corruption should you not abandon the guidance?For instance, I am sure you are aware of the absorbtion of Paganism into the Catholic Church in such Holidays as Easter and Christmas and other practices that seem to go against the basic principles of the word of God such as Mariology or “Mary Worship”
Acceptance of Gay priests and such, do you accept this type of Guidance?
During the inquisition would you have accepted the guidance and dipped your neighbor in boiling oil?
Quote But such deceit is not without its own historical origins. In fact the Christian Bible New Testament speaks of the reigning Sadducee families of the Main Temple of Jerusalem as being wolves in sheep clothing, of hiding evil behind the garments of holiness- in other words being figures of extreme evil. That is why so many Catholic Popes are features prominently on the list of the top 25 most evil people of all time. Not because there is inherently evil in belonging to the Catholic faith. Far from it, individual Catholics around the world on any given day are responsible for the care and support of tens of millions of people, from education, to health to care to the dying and homeless.
The office of Pope is an entirely different matter. It is why Popes such as Pope Pius IX are included on the list, not only for organizing and funding the assassination conspiracy of President Abraham Lincoln, including hiding some of the plot members who returned to the Pope for safety. It is also in their supreme acts of blasphemy and defiance of their own religions such as Pope Pius IX who promptly claimed himself “infallible” and thus an untouchable god on earth, who could never be arrested and tried by the American authorities as the head of a criminal enterprise.
So the list has to do not only with how many people an individual may have ordered to be killed, but the level of historic deceit they represented by their supremely evil actions, while pretending to be honorable and/or the epitome of sanctity.
O’Collins Presents 25 Most Evil Men In History List
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/greg/?p=180Popes have been responsible for Mass murder and mayhem if you found this to be the case would you still accept their guidance?
Quote I am not debating your pastoral guidance but I will ask you this if the one that guides you(and I do believe in Guidance) becomes corrupt and you know of the corruption should you not abandon the guidance? The church cannot be corrupt. Jesus promised to be with it to the end. Jesus promised that the gates of hell would not be able to prevail against it. Your assumptions about the church's errors are false.
Quote For instance, I am sure you are aware of the absorbtion of Paganism into the Catholic Church in such Holidays as Easter and Christmas I'm a bit shocked at how easily you must believe everything you read. I don't know who O'Collins is. But what makes him credible to author such a list?
But I want to transcend this. Let's assume that a pope is a scoundrel. Was the high priest who crucified God in the flesh any less a scoundrel? Yet Jesus said you must do everything they tell you, but do not do as they do. He did not release the Jews from obedience to those who sat in Moses seat.
Was Eli a holy priest? So should the Israelites not have gone up to offer sacrifices because of Hophni and Phinehas? God forbid.
I could go on and on. But my point is made.
So having refuted you, please can we move on to the topic of this thread? Please show me ONE Scripture that says that
the Bible is the ONLY rule for faith and practice.You can't. Admit it.
Actually the Church sanctified the unholy days and made them holy. Every calendar date is made by the Lord. You can argue about the lunar equinox or summer solstice, but let me ask you this: Who created these natural occurrences? So when the Church conquered paganism and the pagan world it was a holy and righteous thing to replace their pagan feast days with holy days so the faithful might have less temptation to fall back into sin and perish. And they were just to erect church buildings on top of pagan temples, etc.
Quote and other practices that seem to go against the basic principles of the word of God such as Mariology or “Mary Worship” We don't worship Mary. We honor her with high honor since it was her “yes” that brought us salvation through Jesus Christ. I could say much more about Mary here that I'm willing to bet you've never heard before in your life. But we must start at the foundational error you have espoused: Sola Scriptura
Quote Acceptance of Gay priests and such, do you accept this type of Guidance? Um…are you completely ignorant of the fact that if any Catholic is a homosexual they are committing a grave mortal sin that can take them body and soul into the abyss of hell? Nothing has changed in the church's teaching.
Or apparently you don't believe that God allows those he places in authority to sin? Give me a break.
Quote Popes have been responsible for Mass murder and mayhem if you found this to be the case would you still accept their guidance? Quote To assist people in repenting, the Inquisitors used any torture method they could think of, with the theoretical restriction that they couldn't break the skin. The Inquisitors came up with numerous gadgets to work within this restriction. They included: The Judas Chair: This was a large pyramid-shaped “seat.” Accused heretics were placed on top of it, with the point inserted into their anuses or genitalia, then very, very slowly lowered onto the point with ropes. The effect was to gradually stretch out the opening of choice in an extremely painful manner.
The Head Vice: Pretty straightforward concept. They put your head into a specially fitted vice, and tighten it until your teeth are crushed, your bones crack and eventually your eyes pop out of their sockets.
The Pear: A large bulbous gadget is inserted in the orifice of choice, whether mouth, anus or vagina. A lever on the device then causes it to slowly expand whilst inserted. Eventually points emerge from the tips. (Apparently, internal bleeding doesn't count as “breaking the skin.”)
The Wheel: Heretics are strapped to a big ol' wheel, and their bones are clubbed into shards. Not very creative, but quite effectiveWould accepting guidance from people who behave like this be appropraite to you?
Hi AC,
Do you speak of the body of Christ or the catholic church and her daughters?
can the pope save you?How about accepting the guidance of an orginization that has done this?
Quote The Christian Connection The celebration in the Roman Catholic Church, which was later to merge with Samhain, was known as All Saints' Day. All Saints' Day originated in the 7th century when the Pantheon at Rome was wrested from the barbarians, made into a cathedral, and renamed the Church of the Blessed Virgin and All Martyrs. Thus, from honoring “all gods” (which is the meaning of the Greek word “pantheon”) the Pantheon became the center for glorifying all saints.
This day that honored all the “hallowed” saints was first observed on the evening of May 13, and was known as the All hallows festival. The day was officially authorized in 835 by Pope Gregory IV after it was moved to November 1 to coincide with Samhain. It began on the evening of October 31, which was called All Hallows Eve.
Thus, without forcing the pagans to drop their pagan practices and accept Christianity, the Roman Catholic church merely made room to accommodate the barbarians.
Just as it confiscated the pagan Pantheon for its own uses, this church incorporated the customs of Samhain to further its mission to convert the known world to Catholicism.
The two celebrations made strange bedfellows: one in respect of evil spirits, the other honoring “saints.”
Nevertheless, the joining of the two celebrations produced a hybrid of beliefs about what was supposed to happen in the spirit world. Souls in purgatory appeared as witches and toads to persons who had wronged them. Halloween fires took on a new meaning and now were used to comfort souls in purgatory as people prayed while holding burning straw in the air.
Even the idea of trick-or-treating by evil spirits took on an acceptable church flavor: costumed children went around on All Souls Day offering to fast for the departed souls in return for money or an offering.
As the Celts converted to the new religion, they did not forget their stories of the dead traveling to the afterworld on Halloween. Rather, exhibitions of this night became more evil and the observance adopted even more malicious overtones.
Please respond, If scripture is not your guide how do you seperate yourself from what is clearly evil?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,14:56) Quote To assist people in repenting, the Inquisitors used any torture method they could think of, with the theoretical restriction that they couldn't break the skin. The Inquisitors came up with numerous gadgets to work within this restriction. They included: The Judas Chair: This was a large pyramid-shaped “seat.” Accused heretics were placed on top of it, with the point inserted into their anuses or genitalia, then very, very slowly lowered onto the point with ropes. The effect was to gradually stretch out the opening of choice in an extremely painful manner.
The Head Vice: Pretty straightforward concept. They put your head into a specially fitted vice, and tighten it until your teeth are crushed, your bones crack and eventually your eyes pop out of their sockets.
The Pear: A large bulbous gadget is inserted in the orifice of choice, whether mouth, anus or vagina. A lever on the device then causes it to slowly expand whilst inserted. Eventually points emerge from the tips. (Apparently, internal bleeding doesn't count as “breaking the skin.”)
The Wheel: Heretics are strapped to a big ol' wheel, and their bones are clubbed into shards. Not very creative, but quite effectiveWould accepting guidance from people who behave like this be appropraite to you?
Please be honest with yourself here. Have you ever read a history of the Inquisition that wasn't rabidly anti-Catholic? This is hogwash.Besides, you prove you don't understand the Catholic faith. IF these actions were taken, they are not Catholic Dogma. They are not bound for belief on the faithful.
Don't you find it remarkable that you can't find one point of doctrine to dispute. You have to resort to the actions of sinful men.
I'll tell you one thing. If I'm going to be looking for the real church, there had better be lots of wheat and lots of tares. And they better grow up together.
But is it any less the church? Will Jesus have nothing to judge at His return?
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,15:05) How about accepting the guidance of an orginization that has done this? Quote The Christian Connection The celebration in the Roman Catholic Church, which was later to merge with Samhain, was known as All Saints' Day. All Saints' Day originated in the 7th century when the Pantheon at Rome was wrested from the barbarians, made into a cathedral, and renamed the Church of the Blessed Virgin and All Martyrs. Thus, from honoring “all gods” (which is the meaning of the Greek word “pantheon”) the Pantheon became the center for glorifying all saints.
This day that honored all the “hallowed” saints was first observed on the evening of May 13, and was known as the All hallows festival. The day was officially authorized in 835 by Pope Gregory IV after it was moved to November 1 to coincide with Samhain. It began on the evening of October 31, which was called All Hallows Eve.
Thus, without forcing the pagans to drop their pagan practices and accept Christianity, the Roman Catholic church merely made room to accommodate the barbarians.
Just as it confiscated the pagan Pantheon for its own uses, this church incorporated the customs of Samhain to further its mission to convert the known world to Catholicism.
The two celebrations made strange bedfellows: one in respect of evil spirits, the other honoring “saints.”
Nevertheless, the joining of the two celebrations produced a hybrid of beliefs about what was supposed to happen in the spirit world. Souls in purgatory appeared as witches and toads to persons who had wronged them. Halloween fires took on a new meaning and now were used to comfort souls in purgatory as people prayed while holding burning straw in the air.
Even the idea of trick-or-treating by evil spirits took on an acceptable church flavor: costumed children went around on All Souls Day offering to fast for the departed souls in return for money or an offering.
As the Celts converted to the new religion, they did not forget their stories of the dead traveling to the afterworld on Halloween. Rather, exhibitions of this night became more evil and the observance adopted even more malicious overtones.
Please respond, If scripture is not your guide how do you seperate yourself from what is clearly evil?
Excuse me. But Scripture IS a guide for the faithful. But you cannot refute the fact that the Bible commands us to follow oral tradition. (2 Thess. 2:15)You have still NOT shown me a scripture where the Bible claims to be the ONLY rule for faith and practice.
Think.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 23 2009,14:45) Hi CA,
Did Jesus establish some sort of an earthly kingdom where those who appoint themselves to power can lead any hiding under their theological coattails unto salvation?
Get some salve for your eyes because those kings are wearing no clothes.Seek first the kingdom as your soul needs to be saved
Jesus indeed established His kingdom in seed form. Or do you disbelieve Him when he said “the Kingdom of God (Heaven) is at hand”?I don't know what you mean by theological coattails. But if there is no church with unity of mind as you will find consistently in the Sacred Scriptures of the apostolic church, then what do you have?
Are you so used to disunity that you cannot see the unity that exists under your very nose?
Have you never considered that the things you see as “un-Biblical” have a very Biblical explanation?
Open your eyes
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Aug. 23 2009,15:20) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 23 2009,15:05) How about accepting the guidance of an orginization that has done this? Quote The Christian Connection The celebration in the Roman Catholic Church, which was later to merge with Samhain, was known as All Saints' Day. All Saints' Day originated in the 7th century when the Pantheon at Rome was wrested from the barbarians, made into a cathedral, and renamed the Church of the Blessed Virgin and All Martyrs. Thus, from honoring “all gods” (which is the meaning of the Greek word “pantheon”) the Pantheon became the center for glorifying all saints.
This day that honored all the “hallowed” saints was first observed on the evening of May 13, and was known as the All hallows festival. The day was officially authorized in 835 by Pope Gregory IV after it was moved to November 1 to coincide with Samhain. It began on the evening of October 31, which was called All Hallows Eve.
Thus, without forcing the pagans to drop their pagan practices and accept Christianity, the Roman Catholic church merely made room to accommodate the barbarians.
Just as it confiscated the pagan Pantheon for its own uses, this church incorporated the customs of Samhain to further its mission to convert the known world to Catholicism.
The two celebrations made strange bedfellows: one in respect of evil spirits, the other honoring “saints.”
Nevertheless, the joining of the two celebrations produced a hybrid of beliefs about what was supposed to happen in the spirit world. Souls in purgatory appeared as witches and toads to persons who had wronged them. Halloween fires took on a new meaning and now were used to comfort souls in purgatory as people prayed while holding burning straw in the air.
Even the idea of trick-or-treating by evil spirits took on an acceptable church flavor: costumed children went around on All Souls Day offering to fast for the departed souls in return for money or an offering.
As the Celts converted to the new religion, they did not forget their stories of the dead traveling to the afterworld on Halloween. Rather, exhibitions of this night became more evil and the observance adopted even more malicious overtones.
Please respond, If scripture is not your guide how do you seperate yourself from what is clearly evil?
Excuse me. But Scripture IS a guide for the faithful. But you cannot refute the fact that the Bible commands us to follow oral tradition. (2 Thess. 2:15)You have still NOT shown me a scripture where the Bible claims to be the ONLY rule for faith and practice.
Think.
A.D.324 Constantine established Christianity the official religion of His empire. It will become known as the “Roman Universal Church.First the Romans persecuted all Christians until Constantine the emperor of the Roman empire issued an edit, It was a brutal and bloody persecution. for three century.
Constantine put a stop to it. That was in
A,D, 313.The first Christian never kept the trinity Doctrine, it was in A,D. 193 that pagan upbringing man institute that doctrine/
But before I go into that, let me say, that Constantine, forbid to work on Sundays, and made the day of worship.
Even times were changed, God's Calendar is no more. No more Sabbath either. Not only that, all of God' Holy Days also; and pagan Holidays were instituted, like X-mas a d Easter, All Saints Day. I have always wondered why!!!It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who instituted the Doctrine of the Trinity.
The Catholic Church also did not let anybody have a Bible. if you were caught reading it, or possessing one, you were tortured and died. Millions died.Let me show you some scriptures that shows us that the Trinity is false.
Deut. 4:35″ Unto Thee it was shewed , that yOU MIGHHTEST
KNOW that the LORD He is God,there is none beside Him.”Deut. 6:4 ” Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, is one LORD.”
1 Cor. 6:4 ” That there is none other God but ONE.
Ephesians 4:6 …one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all, and in us all.”
And by Jesus own words He said this
John 14:28 …..for My Father is greater then I.The doctrine of the trinity is a man made Doctrine and the first Christians and the Apostles did not teach-it.
In Math. 15:9 ” But in vain do the worship Me. teaching the doctrine the commandment of men,”Rev. tells us to come out of Her my People. We have.
It is not easy to do what we did, but I am forever thankful to God for calling us out of the Catholic Church.
What was so ironic is, when we first started to learn all of this, we called our Parish Priest and asked Him. He said to my Husband God is calling you. He knew something.
I hope that you will study hard.
Peace and Love Irene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
