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hey B…. you had said
“True, truth is truth no matter who states it.
My point is not that if a Greek teaches something, it is automatically error.”
Well if this is the case, and it certainly is, then what is your point? Why bring up Plato and the fact that some Christians may believe the same things regarding death as Palto does etc if it is quite beside the point whether or not Plato believed it, or not?
Suppose that some Christians do believe the same things? Given that you have already rightly admitted that just because a Greek philosopher taught something, it doesn't make it either automatically true or false…. so if a Christian happens to agree with the Greek philospopher on this issue, it also proves nothing as to whether or not not the Christian is right or wrong on this issue… why? because it has already been laid out before us that what the Greek philosophers believed is itself not determinitive of the falsehood or verity of a given idea.
Why not come right out and state your own beliefs regarding death etc, say that you believe this based on texts X, Y and X and ask if others agree or disagree… and if they disagree, on what texts do they base their beliefs? Bringing up Plato, when you have already admitted that it is irrelavent, seems… well… irrelavent….
blessings
The philosophy of the Greeks influenced the early church fathers. Thus, the pagan 'immortal soul' teaching was adopted by the Roman Church, and it became 'cemented' in Christian tradition. The Roman Church adopted precisely what the Greek's believed, and most protestant evangelicals are still believing precisely what is written in the Roman Catechism.
It is a known fact that the early Roman church fathers were highly influenced by the philosophy of the Greeks (Rome freely admits this fact), and read the Scriptures in light of it. Thus, much paganism has been mixed in with Christianity by the Roman Church. This paganism has become 'cemented' in Christian 'tradition', and has corrupted the Scriptures. The only way out of it is the method of Martin Luther, which I believe is the method taught by our Lord Jesus Christ — Scripture Alone (and in context). There is no such thing as 'infallible human tradition', as Luther discovered. I have come to understand that we cannot serve two masters. We cannot serve both Scripture and Human Tradition and expect to know the pure Biblical teaching of God.
There is NO IMMORTALITY apart from the Lord Jesus Christ. The Roman Church and the philosophers deny this.
By the way, WHERE is Scripture does it state what Socrates and the other Greek philopshers were discussing?
The teaching of the Greek philosphers that I posted is 'not' found anywhere in Scripture. But this EXACT SAME Greek teaching IS found in the Roman Catechsim. NOT in Scripture –BUT in the Roman Catechism. Why is this?
As William Tyndale stated:
William Tyndale:
“The true faith putteth [teaches] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [teach] that the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together … therefore he corrupteth the Scripture … And again, if the souls be in heaven … what cause is there of the resurrection?”Did the Prophets teach us we are 'immortal' creatures who are 'far greater' than mere dust and ashes?
Ask Job if he was 'immortal'. Ask Job if death was the 'end' or the 'beginning' of life. Ask Job to explain to you what death meant. Ask Job to explain to you what man is. I think Job knows better than Egyptians, Greek philosophers and Roman theologians.
The Egyptians — the Greeks — oriental religions — American Indians — Muslims — practically all of the pagan world religions believe that they are immortal and there is no such thing as death, making the cross of Christ to be 'foolishness'.
Here is the Gospel of the Apostle Paul:
“Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. For this, I was appointed as a preacher, an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.”
There is no immortality apart from the Lord Jesus Christ.
In Jesus,
Berean2005
Berean2005,
How do these verses fit your doctrine mentioned above?
Mark 3:29 – But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
John 5:29 – And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Revelation 20:5 – But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Quote (berean2005 @ June 25 2005,00:43) How do these verses contradict the Apostle Paul's doctrine?
berean2005,I was just wanting a clarification of what you men. That's all.
Can you explain the context of “The rich man and Lazarus” and how that fits?
Thank You!
Hi B,
The philosophers spoke of the immortality of the soul. Do you agree there is a soul? Does the soul die at the first death with the body in your view?
What is resurrected then? Is it just a dead body or does that body have life and personality? Is it the same person or personality or a new one?Surely it is the same and so surely the soul sleeps till the resurrection, as scripture says it does.If so it is immoratla in one view -the view of the first death.
But scripture does not say the soul cannot die in the second death. After all Jesus says God CAN destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire.There are many warnings though about eternal damnation too as FYI has shown.
According to Scripture, both MEN and ANIMALS **are** living souls. — Is this true ? —
According to Scripture, SOULS 'DIE'. — Is this true? Do souls 'die' according to Scripture? —
Hi B,
Well we do know there is eternal life “zoe” available in Christ too so life spoken of in scripture is not always the short “in body” existence.Hi Nick,
Not sure if I recall if you said the following is true or false.
I'll post it below:
———————————————————————
Socrates is speaking, “Do we believe that there is such a thing as death?”“Most certainly,” said Simmias, taking up the role of answering.
“Is it simply the release of the soul from the body? Is death nothing more or less than this, the separate condition of the body by itself when it is released from the soul, and the separate condition by itself of the soul when released from the body? Is death anything else than this?” (Socrates)
“No, just that.” (Simmias) Page 108
Again, Socrates is speaking, with Cebes answering. “So now in the case of the immortal, if it is conceded that this is also imperishable, soul will be imperishable as well as immortal. Otherwise we shall need another argument”
“There is no need on that account,” said Cebes. “If what is immortal and eternal cannot avoid destruction, it is hard to see how anything else can.”
“Then since what is immortal is also indestructible, if soul is really immortal, surely it must be imperishable too. (Socrates)
“Quite inevitably.” said Cebes.
“So it appears that when death comes to a man, the mortal part of him dies, but the immortal part retires at the approach of death and escapes unharmed and indestructable.”
“Evidently”
“Then it is as certain as anything can be, Cebes, that soul is immortal and imperishable, and that our souls will really exist in the next world.” pages 168-9
———————————————————————Is the above true or is the above false?
Hi,
The beginning of a lot of trouble.
Jn 12
” 20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.”
Should greek philosophy be held by christians?
I say no. But if the Greeks stumbled across a truth, then of course we don't throw it away because it is Greek philosophy, but because it is true.
In other words, we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Nevertheless, we should be wary of Greek or for that matter any philosophy.
1 Corinthians 1:22-23
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the Greeks foolishness;Hi,
Greek philosophy demands all things bow to logic.
Logic is of man and his dim view of life.
Faith demands a wider visionSo God gave us logic but we are to deny it? Sad that you feel so constrained by your faith to act as a mindless pawn in the celestial game of chess.
Where do you find Satan and Eve together? Only a snake, one of God's own creatures. You are forcing the text.
Hi KJ,
Rev12
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.Rev12
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.Rev20
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 28 2008,13:48) Hi KJ,
Rev12
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev12
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.Rev20
2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
What makes you think they are one in the same? After all, the serpent was quite obviously a snake, because he was “cursed” to crawl on the ground. Again, you are forcing the text.
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