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I would like to quote from a book called “Plato-The Last days of Socrates”:
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Socrates is speaking, “Do we believe that there is such a thing as death?”“Most certainly,” said Simmias, taking up the role of answering.
“Is it simply the release of the soul from the body? Is death nothing more or less than this, the separate condition of the body by itself when it is released from the soul, and the separate condition by itself of the soul when released from the body? Is death anything else than this?” (Socrates)
“No, just that.” (Simmias) Page 108
Again, Socrates is speaking, with Cebes answering. “So now in the case of the immortal, if it is conceded that this is also imperishable, soul will be imperishable as well as immortal. Otherwise we shall need another argument”
“There is no need on that account,” said Cebes. “If what is immortal and eternal cannot avoid destruction, it is hard to see how anything else can.”
“Then since what is immortal is also indestructible, if soul is really immortal, surely it must be imperishable too. (Socrates)
“Quite inevitably.” said Cebes.
“So it appears that when death comes to a man, the mortal part of him dies, but the immortal part retires at the approach of death and escapes unharmed and indestructable.”
“Evidently”
“Then it is as certain as anything can be, Cebes, that soul is immortal and imperishable, and that our souls will really exist in the next world.” pages 168-9
———————————————————————How many fellow Christians here hold 100% to the above teaching of the Greek philosophers?
In Jesus,
Berean2005
Hi B,
Reason does neither prove nor disprove truth.The 3 wise men were the only ones to recognise the arrival of the Son of God on earth showing that those given the correct information in scripture did neither know nor understand it.
All men are expected to use reason too recognise God in creation so that they might search for and find him.
To try to sanitise scripture of all greek or other influence is also to risk removing the Spirit's voice too. Instead we need the Spirit ourselves to be able to understand scripture and see the kingdom.
“ask and you will receive”All I am asking is whether or not one believes the above teaching of the Greek philosophers is 100% true, partially true, or 100% false.
Just curious if you believe 100% what I posted from the Greek philosophers.
Hi Nick,
I can't find the Greek philospher's teaching anywhere in Scripture. I disagree with the doctrine the Greek philospher's taught 100%.
True, truth is truth no matter who states it.
My point is not that if a Greek teaches something, it is automatically error.
My point is whether or not what I posted that the Greek philosphers were teaching was 'truth' or if it was not truth.
The EXACT same doctrine held by the philosophers happens to be the EXACT same doctrine held by most Christians today. 100% identical.
I am not sure if you agree or disagree with the Greek doctrine I posted.
I know Luther and Tyndale both STRONGLY disagreed with the philosphers:
Martin Luther:
“Now, if one would say that Abraham's soul lives with God but his body is dead, this distinction is rubbish. I will attack it. One must say, “The whole Abraham, the whole man shall live. The other way you tear off a part of Abraham and say, “It lives.” This is the way the philosophers speak: “Afterward the soul departed from its domicile,” etc. That would be a silly soul if it were in heaven and desired its body!”William Tyndale:
“The true faith putteth [teaches] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [teach] that the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together … therefore he corrupteth the Scripture … And again, if the souls be in heaven … what cause is there of the resurrection?”In Jesus,
Berean2005
Hi B,
Who were Tyndale and Luther in the eyes of God? I would give no more credit to them than the greeks would you? Why not just check scripture against scripture?We do not follow men do we?
Hi I agree with what scripture says
1Thess 5.23
” Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit,soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”
Do you?I agree 100% what Paul said.
What does this verse have to do with what I posted regarding the Greeks?
I guess you won't tell me whether or not you agree 100% with what I posted from Socrates, Simmias, and Cebes. Is what they said true?
If you care not to answer I will drop the subject.
Hi B,
What else has Paul said about the soul?The greeks are deceived because they assume the soul is immortal. They only knew a little about the first death and nothing about the second death. They also knew nothing about the resurrection of the dead-first and second. We know from scripture that God CAN destroy both body and soul in Hell[gehenna], but it does not say he does or if he does how long that takes. Certainly the beast and the false prophet were still there after 1000yrs.
We cannot assume the first death, which we also vaguely understand , is exactly, or even slightly, like the second surely. The best thing to do is make sure we avoid the second.You believe the punishment — the penalty — the wages — for sin is a 'mystery' that cannot be understood?
Hi B,
As soon as you can show how scripture defines the second death we may be able to dialogue but you seem to be stuck on the first.What is the punishment for sin at the Judgement Day? What 'wages' will the wicked pay on the Day of Judgment?
Is it something very complex?
Hi B,
The wages of death have been paid by all creation since the fall. That is not the second death but the first. What does scripture say about the second death?Will an un-repentant sinner have to suffer a certain punishment for sin? If so, what is the punishment?
Without Christ, what punishment must a man pay?
Have either of you read “The Apocalypse of Peter”?
Read this background first:
C. Detlef G. Müller writes (New Testament Apocrypha, vol. 2, p. 622):
Period of origin and circulation: we do not know the original text of the Apocalypse of Peter. The translation below makes it clear that the Greek and Ethiopic texts frequently diverge from one another. The Ethiopic version contains a series of linguistic obscurities which are evidently to be traced back to lacunae and defects in the transmission of the text. In this respect it deserves attention that Clement of Alexandria regards the Apocalypse of Peter as Holy Scriptures (cf. Euseb. HE VI 14.1), which is proof of an origin at least in the first half of the 2nd century. The terminus a quo can be more precisely determined through the time of origin of 4 Est. (about 100 A.D.), which was probably used in the Apocalypse of Peter (cf. 4 Est. with c. 3), and 2 Peter, the priority of which was demonstrated by F. Spitta. We thus come, with H. Weinel, to approximately the year 135 as the probable time of origin, if in interpreting the parable of the fig-tree in c. 2 we also relate the Jewish Antichrist who persecutes the Christians to Bar Cochba.
The Apocalypse presumably came into being in Egypt (cf. Clement of Alexandria); the reference to the Egyptian worship of animals also points in this direction, in so far as this passage belongs to the original content. In this connection however we must refer above al to the ancient Egyptian Peter tradition (cf. esp. Berger, 275). Starting from a first rendering into Coptic, the Ethiopic translation probably came into being – as usual – though the medium of Arabic versions. To this extent our Ethiopic text, linguistically not altogether unexceptionable, is only the last in a series, with all the imponderables that entails.Müller writes (New Testament Apocrphya, vol. 2, p. 625): “The significance of the Apocalypse of Peter as an important witness of the Petrine literature is not to be underestimated. Peter is the decisive witness of the resurrection event. Hence he is also deemed worthy of further revelations, which he hands on (in revelation documents) with authority. Revelatio and traditio, receiving and handing on, the chain of transmitters, are the central ideas of this understanding of revelation (Berger). Peter's disciple Clement (2 Clem. 5) plays the decisive role here, as witnessed by the Ethiopic version of the Apocalypse, which belongs in the framework of the Clement literature in which Peter hands on the secret revelation to Clement (on Peter as a recipient of revelation cf. Berger, 379ff.). As compared with the Canon, the eschatological functions of Peter are new (Berger, 325). In its description of heaven and hell the Apocalypse draws on the abundance of ideas from the East which has also left its deposit in the writings of late Jewish Apocalyptic and the mystery religions. The motif of the river of fire, which is one of the pregnant eschatological ideas among the Egyptian Christians, certainly goes back to ancient Egypt. In view of the abundance of traditions in Egypt and the prestige of the Petrine tradition there (veneration of Peter's disciple Mark), an origin in Egypt is probable. The Apocalypse of Peter brings together divergent traditions, for which it has not yet been possible to discover any uniform source.”
Descriptions of the Lake of Fire from the Apocalypse of Peter:
THE ETHIOPIC TEXT:
Then shall they all behold me coming upon an eternal cloud of brightness: and the angels of God that are with me shall sit (prob. And I shall sit) upon the throne of my glory at the right hand of my Heavenly Father; and he shall set a crown upon mine head. And when the nations behold it, they shall weep, every nation apart.
Then shall he command them to enter into the river of fire while the works of every one of them shall stand before them (something is wanting) to every man according to his deeds. As for the elect that have done good, they shall come unto me and not see death by the devouring fire. But the unrighteous the sinners, and the hypocrites shall stand in the depths of darkness that shall not pass away, and their chastisement is the fire, and angels bring forward their sins and prepare for them a place wherein they shall be punished for ever (every one according to his transgression).
Uriel (Urael) the angel of God shall bring forth the souls of those sinners (every one according to his transgression: perhaps this clause should end the preceding paragraph: so Grebaut takes it) who perished in the flood, and of all that dwelt in all idols, in every molten image, in every (object of) love, and in pictures, and of those that dwelt on all hills and in stones and by the wayside, whom men called gods: they shall burn them with them (the objects in which they dwelt, or their worshippers?) in everlasting fire; and after that all of them with their dwelling places are destroyed, they shall be punished eternally.
(Here begins the description of torments which we have, in another text, in the Akhmim fragment.)
Then shall men and women come unto the place prepared for them. By their tongues wherewith they have blasphemed the way of righteousness shall they be hanged up. There is spread under them unquenchable fire, that they escape it not.
Behold, another place: therein is a pit, great and full (of . . ) In it are they that have denied righteousness: and angels of punishment chastise them and there do they kindle upon them the fire of their torment.
And again behold [two: corrupt] women: they hang them up by their neck and by their hair; they shall cast them into the pit. These are they which plaited their hair, not for good (or, not to make them beautiful) but to turn them to fornication, that they might ensnare the souls of men unto perdition. And the men that lay with them in fornication shall be hung by their loins in that place of fire; and they shall say one to another: We knew not that we should come unto everlasting punishment.
And the murderers and them that have made common cause with them shall they cast into the fire, in a place full of venomous beasts, and they shall be tormented without rest, feeling their pains; and their worms shall be as many in number as a dark cloud. And the angel Ezrael shall bring forth the souls of them that have been slain, and they shall behold the torment of them that slew them, and say one to another: Righteousness and justice is the judgement of God. For we heard, but we believed not, that we should come into this place of eternal judgement.
And near by this flame shall be a pit, great and very deep, and into it floweth from above all manner of torment, foulness, and issue. And women are swallowed up therein up to their necks and tormented with great pain. These are they that have caused their children to be born untimely, and have corrupted the work of God that created them. Over against them shall be another place where sit their children [both] alive, and they cry unto God. And flashes (lightnings) go forth from those children and pierce the eyes of them that for fornication's sake have caused their destruction.
Other men and women shall stand above them, naked; and their children stand over against them in a place of delight, and sigh and cry unto God because of their parents, saying: These are they that have despised and cursed and transgressed thy commandments and delivered us unto death: they have cursed the angel that formed us, and have hanged us up, and withheld from us (or, begrudged us) the light which thou hast given unto all creatures. And the milk of their mothers flowing from their breasts shall congeal, and from it shall come beasts devouring flesh, which shall come forth and turn and torment them for ever with their husbands, because they forsook the commandments of God and slew their children. As for their children, they shall be delivered unto the angel Temlakos (i.e. a care-taking angel: see above, in the Fragments). And they that slew them shall be tormented eternally, for God willeth it so.
Ezrael the angel of wrath shall bring men and women, the half of their bodies burning, and cast them into a place of darkness, even the hell of men; and a spirit of wrath shall chastise them with all manner of torment, and a worm that sleepeth not shall devour their entrails: and these are the persecutors and betrayers of my righteous ones.
And beside them that are there, shall be other men and women, gnawing their tongues; and they shall torment them with red-hot iron and burn their eyes. These are they that slander and doubt of my righteousness. Other men and women whose works were done in deceitfulness shall have their lips cut off, and fire entereth into their mouth and their entrails. These are the false witnesses (al. these are they that caused the martyrs to die by their lying).
And beside them, in a place near at hand, upon the stone shall be a pillar of fire, and the pillar is sharper than swords. And there shall be men and women clad in rags and filthy garments, and they shall be cast thereon, to suffer the judgement of a torment that ceaseth not: these are they that trusted in their riches and despised the widows and the woman with fatherless children . . . before God.
And into another place hard by, full of filth, do they cast men and women up to the knees. These are they that lent money and took usury.
And other men and women cast themselves down from an high place and return again and run, and devils drive them. [These are the worshippers of idols] and they put them to the end of their witst (drive them up to the top of the height) and they cast themselves down. And thus do they continually, and are tormented for ever. These are they which have cut their flesh as [apostles] of a man: and the women that were with them . . . and these are the men that defiled themselves together as women. (This is very corrupt: but the sense is clear in the (Greek.)
And beside them (shall be a brazier ?) . . . and beneath them shall the angel Ezrael prepare a place of much fire: and all the idols of gold and silver, all idols, the work of men's hands, and the semblances of images of cats and lions, of creeping things and wild beasts, and the men and women that have prepared the images thereof, shall be in chains of fire and shall be chastised because of their error before the idols, and this is their judgement for ever. (In the Greek they beat each other with rods of fire: and this is better.)
And beside them shall be other men and women, burning in the fire of the judgement, and their torment is everlasting. These are they that have forsaken the commandment of God and followed the (persuasions ?) of devils.
(Parts of these two sections are in the Bodleian Fragment. At this point the Akhmim fragment ends. The Ethiopic continues
And there shall be another place, very high (corrupt sentences follow. Duensing omits them: Grebaut renders doubtfully: There shall be a furnace and a brazier wherein shall burn fire. The fire that shall burn shall come from one end of the brazier). The men and women whose feet slip, shall go rolling down into a place where is fear. And again while the
fire that is prepared floweth, they mount up and fall down again and continue to roll down. (This suggests a narrow bridge over a stream of fire which they keep trying to cross.) Thus shall they be tormented for ever. These are they that honoured not their father and mother and of their own accord withheld (withdrew) themselves from them. Therefore shall they be chastised eternally.Furthermore the angel Ezrael shall bring children and maidens to show them those that are tormented. They shall be chastised with pains, with hanging up (?) and with a multitude of wounds which flesh-devouring birds shall inflict upon them. These are they that boast themselves (trust) in their sins, and obey not their parents and follow not the instruction of their fathers, and honour not them that are more aged than they.
Beside them shall be girls clad in darkness for a garment and they shall be sore chastised and their flesh shall be torn in pieces. These are they that kept not their virginity until they were given in marriage, and with these torments shall they be punished, and shall feel them.
And again, other men and women, gnawing their tongues without ceasing, and being tormented with everlasting fire. These are the servants (slaves) which were not obedient unto their masters; and this then is their judgement for ever.
And hard by this place of torment shall be men and women dumb and blind, whose raiment is white. They shall crowd one upon another, and fall upon coals of unquenchable fire. These are they that give alms and say: We are righteous before God: whereas they have not sought after righteousness.
Ezrael the angel of God shall bring them forth out of this fire and establish a judgement of decision. This then is their judgement. A river of fire shall flow and all judgement (they that are judged) shall be drawn down into the middle of the river. And Uriel shall set them there.
And there are wheels of fire and men and women hung thereon by the strength of the whirling thereof. And they that are in the pit shall burn: now these are the sorcerers and sorceresses. Those wheels shall be in a]l decision (judgement, punishment) by fire without number.
Thereafter shall the angels bring mine elect and righteous which are perfect in all uprightness, and bear them in their hands, and clothe them with the raiment of the life that is above. They shall see their desire on them that hated them, when he punisheth them, and the torment of every one shall be for ever according to his works.
And all they that are in torment shall say with one voice: have mercy upon us, for now know we the judgement of God, which he declared unto us aforetime, and we believed not. And the angel Tatirokos (Tartaruchus, keeper of hell: a word corresponding in formation to Temeluchus) shall come and chastise them with yet greater torment, and say unto them: Now do ye repent, when it is no longer the time for repentance, and nought of life remaineth. And they shall say: Righteous is the judgement of God, for we have heard and perceived that his judgement is good; for we are recompensed according to our deeds.
Then will I give unto mine elect and righteous the washing (baptism) and the salvation for which they have besought me, in the field of Akrosja (Acherousia, a lake in other writings, e.g. Apocalypse of Moses -where the soul of Adam is washed in it: see also Paul 22, 23) which is called Aneslasleja (Elysium). They shall adorn with flowers the portion of the righteous, and I shall go . . . I shall rejoice with them. I will cause the peoples to enter in to mine everlasting kingdom, and show them that eternal thing (life ?) whereon I have made them to set their hope, even I and my Father which is in heaven.
I have spoken this unto thee, Peter, and declared it unto thee. Go forth therefore and go unto the land (or city) of the west. (Duensing omits the next sentences as unintelligible; Grebaut and N. McLean render thus: and enter into the vineyard which I shall tell thee of, in order that by the sickness (sufferings) of the Son who is without sin the deeds of corruption may be sanctified. As for thee, thou art chosen according to the promise which I have given thee. Spread thou therefore my gospel throughout all the world in peace. Verily men shall rejoice: my words shall be the source of hope and of life, and suddenly shall the world be ravished.)
Fragments of the Apocalypse of Peter quoted in other Church Fathers writings:
FRAGMENTS OF THE APOCALYPSE OF PETER.
1. CLEMENS ALEXANDRINUS, Eclog. 48. For instance, Peter in the Apocalypse says that the children who are born out of due time shall be of the better part: and that these are delivered over to a care-taking angel that they may attain a share of knowledge and gain the better abode [after suffering what they would have suffered if they had been in the body: but the others shall merely obtain salvation as injured beings to whom mercy is shown, and remain without punishment, receiving this as a reward].*
2. CLEM. ALEX. Eclog. 49. But the milk of the women running down from their breasts and congealing shall engender small flesh eating beasts: and these run up upon them and devour them.
3. MACARIUS MAGNES, Apocritica iv., 6 cf. 16. The earth, it (sc. the Apoc. of Peter) says, “shall present all men before God at the day of judgment, being itself also to be judged, with the heaven also which encompasses it.”
4. CLEM. ALEX. Eclog. 41. The scripture says that infants that have been exposed are delivered to a care-taking angel, by whom they are educated and so grow up, and they will be, it says, as the faithful of a hundred years old are here.
5. METHODIUS, Conviv. ii., 6. Whence also we have received in divinely-inspired scriptures that untimely births are delivered to care-taking angels, even if they are the offspring of adultery.
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