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Hi,
Some suggest that Sheol is a general word for death, a mythical common grave. They say it is not a place but a condition. Or they say it is a state of existence like to death such as Jonah in the whale.Sheol is very commonly found in the Old Testament.
Numbers 16.27f
“So they got back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan, and Abiram; and Dathan and Abiram came out and stood in the doorway of their tents, along with their wives and their sons and their little ones.
Moses said'
'By this you shall know that the Lord has sent me to do all these deeds for this is not my doing. If these men die the death of all men or if they suffer the fate of all men, then the Lord has not sent me. But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens up it's mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord'
As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; and the earth opened it's mouth and swalllowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly”So here it is plain that Sheol is in the earth
It is usual to be dead to enter it.
It is possible to enter it alive.
It does not mean the same as ordinary death but is separate.
AND
God is to be feared.God is not like man bound by individual moral responsiblity in terms of punishment. The little ones in man's eyes can hardly be seen as responsible for the sins of their fathers and yet they too were destroyed. We cannot apply man's moral Laws to God and judge God.
'Come ye out of her my people lest you suffer for her sins'.
Hi,
But did David die and go to Sheol and return to write in Ps 86.13
“For your lovingkindness to me is great and you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol”?
No. So Sheol can also be spoken of in allegorical terms too. But as with all allegories there has to be a reality that compares with it to make it make sense.Quote Some suggest that Sheol is a general word for death, a mythical common grave. They say it is not a place but a condition. Or they say it is a state of existence like to death such as Jonah in the whale. If you're referring to me, I haven't really said any of these things. I haven't said it's a word for death. I have said it's the “common grave of mankind.” I haven't said it's not a place but a condition. Rather, I said, for example, in the first paragraph when covering what sheol is:
“This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction.”
As for Jonah, go to the Jonah thread to see what I said.Quote So here it is plain that Sheol is in the earth
Right, a persons grave (where they are dead) usually is in the earth. And they are usually dead before they enter their grave. But Jonah, for example referred to the belly of the fish as “the belly of sheol.” In Jonah's case, his grave wouldn't be in the earth. His death was to take place in the belly of the fish.
So, it's neccessary to move the tent peg, as you say to accept the broader definition of sheol, that of “common grave of mankind.”As for entering sheol “alive,” the fact that it's highlighted so often that they were alive, along with your statement that “it's usual to be dead to enter it,” agree with what the rest of the Bible says.
USUALLY, someone DIES and is THEN buried. These people went to their grave (WHERE THEY WOULD DIE rather quickly I'd imagine), before they were dead. But of course it was sheol for them, or about to become sheol. Their death was certain. (Just like Jonah's death seemed certain.)
Quote It does not mean the same as ordinary death but is separate.
sheol is not the same word as death. I've never said that.BABYLON the great and it's influence:
“Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.
Yes, the Babylonians believed that life of some kind, in some form, continued after death. The teaching of the immortality of the soul goes back to ancient Babylon.“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.
“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.
“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.
“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246.
Nick, I urge YOU, Come out of her.
david
Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2005,15:50) Quote Some suggest that Sheol is a general word for death, a mythical common grave. They say it is not a place but a condition. Or they say it is a state of existence like to death such as Jonah in the whale. If you're referring to me, I haven't really said any of these things. I haven't said it's a word for death. I have said it's the “common grave of mankind.” I haven't said it's not a place but a condition. Rather, I said, for example, in the first paragraph when covering what sheol is:
“This would indicate that Sheol is the place (not a condition) that asks for or demands all without distinction.”
As for Jonah, go to the Jonah thread to see what I said.
Hi david,
Is your name mentioned? No. Many views are expressed here and we want to tease out more truth from scripture and not attack anyone.Quote (david @ Nov. 07 2005,16:07) Quote So here it is plain that Sheol is in the earth
Right, a persons grave (where they are dead) usually is in the earth. And they are usually dead before they enter their grave. But Jonah, for example referred to the belly of the fish as “the belly of sheol.” In Jonah's case, his grave wouldn't be in the earth. His death was to take place in the belly of the fish.
So, it's neccessary to move the tent peg, as you say to accept the broader definition of sheol, that of “common grave of mankind.”As for entering sheol “alive,” the fact that it's highlighted so often that they were alive, along with your statement that “it's usual to be dead to enter it,” agree with what the rest of the Bible says.
USUALLY, someone DIES and is THEN buried. These people went to their grave (WHERE THEY WOULD DIE rather quickly I'd imagine), before they were dead. But of course it was sheol for them, or about to become sheol. Their death was certain. (Just like Jonah's death seemed certain.)
Quote It does not mean the same as ordinary death but is separate.
sheol is not the same word as death. I've never said that.BABYLON the great and it's influence:
“Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought [in Babylon] ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, p. 556.
Yes, the Babylonians believed that life of some kind, in some form, continued after death. The teaching of the immortality of the soul goes back to ancient Babylon.“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.
“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.
“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.
“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246.
Nick, I urge YOU, Come out of her.
david
Hi david,
What is resurrection to you? Re-creation?Hi david,
When Lazarus was raised from sleep was he recreated? Or did his original life or soul reinvigourate his dead body? Searching for and casting out so-called greek influence from the bible is distorting what is written. There are many shivering babies lying around in the spilt water. Hades may be a greek word but the Spirit uses this word in the bible.It's not greek language, but greek beliefs (which are based on older babylonian beliefs) infiltrating Christianity which bothers me.
Hi,
Gen 37.35
“Surely I will go down to Sheol in mourning for my son”Who is the I that goes down to Sheol? Sheol is the abode of the dead but even here the dead are not truly dead. The soul does not die in the first death.
Ps 16.10 ” For you will not abandon my soul to Sheol”
Ps 30.3
“O Lord, you have brought up my soul from Sheol..”
Ps 49.15
” But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol..”
Ps 86.13
“..And you have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol”
Pr 23.14
“You shall strike him with the rod and rescue his soul from Sheol”According to scripture both the soul is real and Sheol is a real place.
Hi,
Ez32.18f
” Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and bring it down, her and her daughters of the powerful nations, to the nether world, with those who go down to the pit;
'Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and make your bed with the uncircumcised'
They shall fall in the midst of those who are slain by the sword. She is given over to the sword;they have drawn her and all her hordes away. the strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol. They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword…...'Though I instilled a terror of him in the land of the living, yet he will be made to lie down among the uncircumcised, along with those slain by the sword, even Pharaoh and all his hordes' declares the Lord God”
So there is a nether world as well as the land of the living. The nether world is called Sheol or the pit. In the nether world there are areas reserved for sinners, the uncircumcised. The souls of the dead lie down and sleep till the resurrection.
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