- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (942767 @ Jan. 04 2010,13:05) Hi thethinker: Who is speaking here?
Quote Isa 48:2 For they call themselves after the holy city, And lean on the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts [is] His name: Isa 48:3 “I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did [them], and they came to pass.
Isa 48:4 Because I knew that you [were] obstinate, And your neck [was] an iron sinew, And your brow bronze,
Isa 48:5 Even from the beginning I have declared [it] to you; Before it came to pass I proclaimed [it] to you, Lest you should say, 'My idol has done them, And my carved image and my molded image Have commanded them.'
And here?
Quote Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I [am] He, I [am] the First, I [am] also the Last. Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; [When] I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these [things]? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm [shall be against] the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, [even] I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
And here?
Quote Isa 48:17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I [am] the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
Isa 48:19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand, And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand; His name would not have been cut off Nor destroyed from before Me.”
Isa 48:20 Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans! With a voice of singing, Declare, proclaim this, Utter it to the end of the earth; Say, “The LORD has redeemed His servant Jacob!”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I have already answered you. The Person who is speaking in verse 2 cannot be Jehovah God for the speaker refers to Jehovah in the third person. Therefore, the speaker of verse 2 is to be distinguished from Jehovah. The same is true of verses 12-15. It is the speaker who called Israel and who created the heavens and the earth.
It is the speaker/creator who was sent by Jehovah and the Spirit of HIM (third person). It's clear! The speaker says, “I (first person) am sent by Jehovah and the Spirit of HIM (third person).
The speaker/creator/messenger was sent with a word from Jehovah who said, “I am Jehovah your Redeemer….” So it is not Jehovah Himself speaking in verse 17. It is the Messenger doing the speaking and He is relaying to the people what Jehovah said. That Messenger is the Creator of verse 12 and the One who was “sent” in verse 16 and the One who was speaking for Jehovah in verse 17.
The Creator employs the first person “I” but refers to Jehovah by the third person “Him.” It is unmistakeable!
Again you have ignored Hebrews 1:8-10 which says that the Father attributes the creation to the Son's own hands.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 05 2010,04:18) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 04 2010,13:05) Hi thethinker: Who is speaking here?
Quote Isa 48:2 For they call themselves after the holy city, And lean on the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts [is] His name: Isa 48:3 “I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did [them], and they came to pass.
Isa 48:4 Because I knew that you [were] obstinate, And your neck [was] an iron sinew, And your brow bronze,
Isa 48:5 Even from the beginning I have declared [it] to you; Before it came to pass I proclaimed [it] to you, Lest you should say, 'My idol has done them, And my carved image and my molded image Have commanded them.'
And here?
Quote Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I [am] He, I [am] the First, I [am] also the Last. Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; [When] I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these [things]? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm [shall be against] the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, [even] I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
And here?
Quote Isa 48:17 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I [am] the LORD your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
Isa 48:19 Your descendants also would have been like the sand, And the offspring of your body like the grains of sand; His name would not have been cut off Nor destroyed from before Me.”
Isa 48:20 Go forth from Babylon! Flee from the Chaldeans! With a voice of singing, Declare, proclaim this, Utter it to the end of the earth; Say, “The LORD has redeemed His servant Jacob!”
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,I have already answered you. The Person who is speaking in verse 2 cannot be Jehovah God for the speaker refers to Jehovah in the third person. Therefore, the speaker of verse 2 is to be distinguished from Jehovah. The same is true of verses 12-15. It is the speaker who called Israel and who created the heavens and the earth.
It is the speaker/creator who was sent by Jehovah and the Spirit of HIM (third person). It's clear! The speaker says, “I (first person) am sent by Jehovah and the Spirit of HIM (third person).
The speaker/creator/messenger was sent with a word from Jehovah who said, “I am Jehovah your Redeemer….” So it is not Jehovah Himself speaking in verse 17. It is the Messenger doing the speaking and He is relaying to the people what Jehovah said. That Messenger is the Creator of verse 12 and the One who was “sent” in verse 16 and the One who was speaking for Jehovah in verse 17.
The Creator employs the first person “I” but refers to Jehovah by the third person “Him.” It is unmistakeable!
Again you have ignored Hebrews 1:8-10 which says that the Father attributes the creation to the Son's own hands.
thinker
Hi thethinker:You say that it cannot be Jehovah, and so, who do you say is speaking.
I have not ignored Hebrews 1:10, but I cannot understand that Jesus literally laid the foundations of the earth because there are too many other scriptures which condradict this.
Hebrews 1:10 is a continuation of what is being stated in Hebrews 1:1 and the verses following which state:
Quote Hbr 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
Hbr 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;Verse 2 says that God made the worlds through him, and Genesis 1 states “in the beginning “God” created the heavens and the earth, and there are other scriptures which show that God created the heavens and the earth and laid the foundations.
And so, Hebrews 1:10 cannot mean that Jesus literally laid the foundations of the earth in the beginning. He did not exist then as a sentient person. And as I have already asked you, why would God have to tell him that he laid the foundations of the earth if this was literal? He would have already known this. And so, no, it cannot be literal. God made everything through him and for him, and so in this sense, he Jesus is responsible for everything that God created.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote I have not ignored Hebrews 1:10, but I cannot understand that Jesus literally laid the foundations of the earth because there are too many other scriptures which condradict this.
There are no scriptures which contradict that Christ laid the foundations of the world.Marty:
Quote Verse 2 says that God made the worlds through him,
Boom!! You have just confessed Christ's pre-existence. You have denied His pre-existence up until now. Shhhhhh…Do not let Gene know you have come to the pre-existence side. His blood pressure will sky rocket.Verses 1-2 say that the Father created the “ages” through the Son. This is not a reference to the creation of the physical universe but to the successive ages of Israel's history.
Note Young's Literal Translation
2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the AGES;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage….ion=YLT
Note the commentary below:
The Greek word rendered “worlds” is lit. “ages” (also in 11:3), highlighting the successive periods of history in the created order, Reformation Study Bible note on Hebrews 1:2, p. 1934)
I personally limit the “ages” to Israel's history.
Anyway, it says that the Father created the “ages” through the Son. The creation of the physical universe is solely attributed to the Son by the Father Himself (vs. 10). Do you think the Father's testimony is altogether reliable? I certainly do!
There is not one scripture throughout the entire New Testament which attributes the physical creation to the Father. The physical creation is ALWAYS attributed to the Son.
Anyway, I rejoice that you have come over to the pre-existence of Jesus.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 06 2010,04:20) Marty said: Quote I have not ignored Hebrews 1:10, but I cannot understand that Jesus literally laid the foundations of the earth because there are too many other scriptures which condradict this.
There are no scriptures which contradict that Christ laid the foundations of the world.Marty:
Quote Verse 2 says that God made the worlds through him,
Boom!! You have just confessed Christ's pre-existence. You have denied His pre-existence up until now. Shhhhhh…Do not let Gene know you have come to the pre-existence side. His blood pressure will sky rocket.Verses 1-2 say that the Father created the “ages” through the Son. This is not a reference to the creation of the physical universe but to the successive ages of Israel's history.
Note Young's Literal Translation
2in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the AGES;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage….ion=YLT
Note the commentary below:
The Greek word rendered “worlds” is lit. “ages” (also in 11:3), highlighting the successive periods of history in the created order, Reformation Study Bible note on Hebrews 1:2, p. 1934)
I personally limit the “ages” to Israel's history.
Anyway, it says that the Father created the “ages” through the Son. The creation of the physical universe is solely attributed to the Son by the Father Himself (vs. 10). Do you think the Father's testimony is altogether reliable? I certainly do!
There is not one scripture throughout the entire New Testament which attributes the physical creation to the Father. The physical creation is ALWAYS attributed to the Son.
Anyway, I rejoice that you have come over to the pre-existence of Jesus.
thinker
Hi thethinker:You are always good for a good laugh, but no, I do not agree that Jesus pre-existed.
Quote 1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote You are always good for a good laugh, but no, I do not agree that Jesus pre-existed. But yesterday Marty said;
Quote Verse 2 says that God made the worlds through him, 
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 06 2010,14:04) Marty said: Quote You are always good for a good laugh, but no, I do not agree that Jesus pre-existed. But yesterday Marty said;
Quote Verse 2 says that God made the worlds through him, thinker
Hi thethinker:The whole of the OT is prophetic, either by scripture or by symbolism, about him, and the NT is about the salvation of mankind through him.
Quote Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.” Quote Hbr 3:5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, Hbr 3:6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. [fn]
Hbr 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice,
Hbr 3:8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness,Quote Col 1:13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed [us] into the kingdom of the Son of His love, Col 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, [fn] the forgiveness of sins.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased [the Father that] in Him all the fullness should dwell,
Col 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
And so, do you now understand?
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty said:
Quote The whole of the OT is prophetic, either by scripture or by symbolism, about him, and the NT is about the salvation of mankind through him. Half truths Marty. Half truths are falsehoods.
The New Testament EXPLAINS the Old and it clearly says that Christ created all things by His own hands. We have the Father's word on it:
Quote “8 But to the Son He says: “ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[a]10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.If the Father is your God you would not take issue with Him.
thinker
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
