Sharp&#39;s rule&#8230;.

Participant

Marty said:

Quote

Jesus did not exist as a sentient person in the beginning but God made all things with him in mind, and so this verse of scripture can either mean that God created all things with him in mind or it can mean in the sense that he is building the Holy Temple of God, and from the beginning God has forseen this. I tend to think that it refers to the latter because this is being spoken to him at the time he is being exalted to the head of the church.

Marty,
The scriptures no where state that God created everything with Jesus in His mind. This idea comes from your own head. The Father Himself attributed creation to the Son as I have demonstrated from Hebrews chapter one.

You say that Jehovah created and you are correct. But you ignore that Jesus shares the name Jehovah with the Father.

Quote

20 “Behold, I send an Messenger before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him. 22 But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak, then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries. 23 For My Angel will go before you and bring you in to the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites; and I will cut them off.

Note that the Messenger of Jehovah shares Jehovah's name and has the power to punish transgressions. Therefore, the Messenger of Jehovah is Himself Jehovah, that is, Jesus.

In isaiah 48 the Creator is distinguished from Jehovah for He is commissioned and sent by Jehovah.

Quote

God’s Ancient Plan to Redeem Israel
12 Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord Jehovah and His Spirit
Have sent Me.

This CLEARLY distinguishes the Creator from Jehovah.

Really, I cannot comprehend how you can call yourself a friend of the Father and deny His own testimony that the Son created all things by His own hand (Heb. 1:10). For you to call the Father a liar is a very serious matter don't you think?

thinker

December 29, 2009 at 5:14 pm#166959

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 29 2009,14:02)

Marty said:

Quote

You say that Jehovah created and you are correct. But you ignore that Jesus shares the name Jehovah with the Father.

Quote

Note that the Messenger of Jehovah shares Jehovah's name and has the power to punish transgressions. Therefore, the Messenger of Jehovah is Himself Jehovah, that is, Jesus.

In isaiah 48 the Creator is distinguished from Jehovah for He is commissioned and sent by Jehovah.

Quote

This CLEARLY distinguishes the Creator from Jehovah.

Really, I cannot comprehend how you can call yourself a friend of the fFther and deny His own testimony that the Son created all things by His own hand (Heb. 1:10). For you to call the Father a liar is a very serious matter don't you think?

thinker

i see that it says he is the first.

that also makes me think when we argue about “firstborn of creation” is not jesus as first created but that GOD is the first OF.

first of not literal firstborn.

jesus had come into being on earth from god's own spirit , thus maing him perfect. he was given his spirit (god's spirit)and was exactly as god is and can be or do.

god's spirit or holy spirit does everything god can and wants, it also gives and shows all his wisdom and powers and essence of himself. it is what he is. jesus is waht all that is also.

so they are all in perfect union with each other, they all came to be from god. thus we need to only worship jehovah GOD as he says. they all have the same qualities, same will, wether or not it was always there or transfered to or used to make into being.

god's awesome wisdom he has is what created all. when jesus cried out wanting the glory god had once shown is refering to his actions those were glorious and christ dieing as he did was not, it was the furthest thing from that glorous wisdom that is why he felt forsaken.

jesus was born of god's spirit, was given god's spirit and knew and did all that only his father could. he would also know his will thus having knowledge of what wisdom god has.

December 29, 2009 at 5:23 pm#166962

Participant

i think now that the illistration of a father and son is just to help mere imperfect humans try to have a easier grasp on certain things he is trying to show. that it doesn't have to mean a literal father & son both being totaly seperate and unique of each other.

that it just shows how one is to be held above another. that is why one is to only worship the father as GOD, yes you need to include both for you can't have or love one and not the other.

December 30, 2009 at 3:40 am#167098

Participant

Hi thethinker:

You say:

Quote

Yes, I do think that calling either the Father of Jesus a liar is a serious matter, and this applies to anyone who is teaching the Word of God. I am not calling the Father a liar, but I definitely do not understand the scriptures the way that you teach them.

God's name is in Jesus because as God's Christ he God's representative to humanity. It is God who has given him the authority.

The second verse that you are quoting does not refer to Jesus, but to Cyrus.

Love in Christ,
Marty

December 30, 2009 at 3:58 pm#167189

uoflfan

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 29 2009,10:02)

Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 29 2009,05:38)

thanks jack.
i don't think that those are enemies of christ but just are holding a view that they see to fit. i think thats ok too as long as only the father is worshiped as GOD and the son is put in what position GOD had chose for his relationship..

i don't think that its a issue that leads one astray or changes there view on both. just all the fighting and argueing seems now pointless and we should be united togther in the core value we both have. which is the father is worshiped as GOD and the son is held to his own positon and worship in faith as our way to god and his kingdom.

my eyes have been opened from different views from not just one religion, but really one faith.

thats my take on it, we all want and do the same thing.

i haven't seen or heard the triune view as that one worships all the same, there still is order and positions of each and how they are to be worshiped, just that it give a history and backing t othem all not just saying god is god and jesus is son

peace2all,

One cannot worship the Father without worshiping the Son. The Father committed all judgment to the Son in order that “all men should honor the Son EVEN AS they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who who sent Him” (John 5:22-23).

WJ and I have have warned many here over and over again but they will not listen.

Anyway, my heart rejoices regarding you though we see those differently who reject Christ.

thinker

Thinker
Do you think when the end comes we will be worshiping Jesus and the Father or just the Father?
I believe being we will worship with our brother Jesus.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

December 30, 2009 at 4:03 pm#167191

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi2nAHPpgvI&feature=player_embedded

Participant

good explanation!

December 30, 2009 at 11:24 pm#167287

Participant

Marty said:

Quote

The second verse that you are quoting does not refer to Jesus, but to Cyrus.

Marty,
So you will allow for Cyrus to pre-exist as Creator and not Jesus?

Quote

God’s Ancient Plan to Redeem Israel
12 Listen to Me, O Jacob,
And Israel, My called:
I am He, I am the First,
I am also the Last.
13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My right hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
14 “ All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear!
Who among them has declared these things?
The LORD loves him;
He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
15 I, even I, have spoken;
Yes, I have called him,
I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
16 “ Come near to Me, hear this:
I have not spoken in secret from the beginning;
From the time that it was, I was there.
And now the Lord Jehovah and His Spirit
Have sent Me.

You mean to say that Israel is Cyrus's called people and that the hand of Cyrus laid the foundation of the earth? It was the right hand of Cyrus that stretched out the heavens and it was Cyrus who was sent by Jehovah?

You just lost the argument.

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 2:10 am#167354

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 31 2009,10:24)

Marty said:

Quote

The second verse that you are quoting does not refer to Jesus, but to Cyrus.

Marty,
So you will allow for Cyrus to pre-exist as Creator and not Jesus?

Quote

You just lost the argument.

thinker

Hi thethinker:

What arguement? I am not here to argue, but to preach the truth.

To whom do the following verses refer?

Quote

Isa 48:14 “All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these [things]? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon, And His arm [shall be against] the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, [even] I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.

Love in Christ,
Marty

December 31, 2009 at 2:25 am#167358

Participant

Marty said;

Quote

What arguement. I am not here to argue, but to preach the truth.

The truth is that Isaiah 48:12-16 is not about Cyrus. The one speaking says that he called Israel as his people and that he created and that he was sent by Jehovah. You want us to believe that this is about Cyrus?

You anti-trinitarians will say anything to deny Jesus His rightful place. You even allow for Cyrus to pre-exist as Creator. But Jesus cannot be pre-existent? Believe it or not I am in part pleased when you guys make such absurd statements. I believe it helps those who watch and are undecided to see the inconsistency of your errors.

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 2:51 am#167365

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 31 2009,13:25)

Marty said;

Quote

What arguement. I am not here to argue, but to preach the truth.

thinker

Hi thethinker:

I did not say that Cyrus pre-existed. He did not and neither did Jesus. God has forseen every thing from the beginning to the end, and so, he had forseen that He would use Cyrus to defeat Babylonia.

Here is another series scriptures to support what I have stated:

Quote

Isa 45:1 “Thus says the LORD to His anointed, To Cyrus, whose right hand I have held– To subdue nations before him And loose the armor of kings, To open before him the double doors, So that the gates will not be shut:

Isa 45:2 'I will go before you And make the crooked places [fn] straight; I will break in pieces the gates of bronze And cut the bars of iron.

Isa 45:3 I will give you the treasures of darkness And hidden riches of secret places, That you may know that I, the LORD, Who call [you] by your name, [Am] the God of Israel.

Isa 45:4 For Jacob My servant's sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] no other; [There is] no God besides Me. I will gird you, though you have not known Me,

Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun to its setting That [there is] none besides Me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] no other;

Love in Christ,
Marty

December 31, 2009 at 4:32 am#167400

Participant

Marty said:

Quote

I did not say that Cyrus pre-existed. He did not and neither did Jesus. God has forseen every thing from the beginning to the end, and so, he had forseen that He would use Cyrus to defeat Babylonia.

Marty,
Come on man! You are disappointing me by your scripture twisting here. I have a lot of respect for you. Please don't let me down. The One who is speaking says that he called Israel as His own people and that he created the heavens and the earth by his own hand. The One speaking cannot be Cyrus. In verse 16 he says that he was sent by Jehovah and his Spirit. So the Creator here is clearly distinguished from Jehovah.

Though Cyrus was the instrument in defeating Babylon it is not Cyrus speaking in the prophecy. The one who created refers to himself in the first person but to Cyrus and Jehovah in the third persons.

The Father Himself attributes the creation of the heavens and the earth to His Son.

Quote

But to the Son He says:

“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

The Father clearly said that the Son created with His own hands. Irene says that this is a “man made” doctrine. She is going against the Father's own testimony. How can you people say that the Father is your God and deny His testimony concerning His Son?

I am going to keep bringing you back to the Father's testimony until you deal with it. Jesus said, “My Father bears witness about Me.” But you guys don't accept the Father's testimony. Why?

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 12:25 pm#167463

Participant

i have noticed at looking deeper into the scriptures that jesus would not directly say he was not god or just the son to a certaintly. he would lead of to let the person find that answer. i think that if he was to directly say that he was god but had come down in the form of man that it would make him go against what he had spoke from hte begining.

the would say that he and the father are one,his will is his fathers,they are in complete union,his teaching are not his but his fathers,his words are his fathers.

now the bible uses illistration throughout the bible very often, and when jesus who was born in womb by god's own spirit his own essence and that god himself gave that vessel of himself the spirit of god he was in fact the fathers earthy son as we can know it bit was true esence of god becasue he did and knew all that god only can.

tha is why his titles and portrayal are all of what the almighty is said to be as do.

he did not want ot rule or be the god of salvation as a person from earth that is why he said he was from above, thats where his place of ruleship belongs. that is why he has that temperary ruleship over earth before handing it back. that means of god commnunicating to use is but a means of showing himself and restarting a new covenant.

god has always come to man habding his covenants or words/directions fro himself. why did he not use jesus beforehand.

it is because god had been doing it all along just as he did as the son of the living god or the god son. he was the living god in front of them but un th eform of flesh a son that man knoew him by because that man or son was born just as that as a son buut was from the seed and essence of his spirit being.

that is why he as saught after to be stoned becasue he would in a roud about way say he was god but didn;t directly becasue he alredy knew he the outcome was to be which was to be killed and he did what he knw was needed to last his time on earth until his message was complete.

these were not plans from god that manifested over a short peroid but infact im sure were laid in foundation in god's wisdom from the begining.

by having faith in jesus in his role ids because it it from god that it was tp be. that you need to have both and not one or the other to be accepted because its all the means of gods own communication and displys of himself.

December 31, 2009 at 2:10 pm#167471

Participant

Peace2all said:

Quote

he was the living god in front of them but un th eform of flesh a son that man knoew him by because that man or son was born just as that as a son buut was from the seed and essence of his spirit being.

p2a,

Amen! Jesus was the living God in front of them in the form of flesh. Jesus was God in human form. The apostolic teaching on this is irrefutable.

Well said!

thinker

December 31, 2009 at 5:21 pm#167491

Participant

TO ALL:

Sharp's rule applies in 2 Peter 2:20:

” For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning”

thinker

January 1, 2010 at 5:00 am#167609

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 31 2009,15:32)

Marty said:

Quote

I did not say that Cyrus pre-existed. He did not and neither did Jesus. God has forseen every thing from the beginning to the end, and so, he had forseen that He would use Cyrus to defeat Babylonia.

Though Cyrus was the instrument in defeating Babylon it is not Cyrus speaking in the prophecy. The one who created refers to himself in the first person but to Cyrus and Jehovah in the third persons.

The Father Himself attributes the creation of the heavens and the earth to His Son.

Quote

But to the Son He says:

10 And:

“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

I am going to keep bringing you back to the Father's testimony until you deal with it. Jesus said, “My Father bears witness about Me.” But you guys don't accept the Father's testimony. Why?

thinker

Hi thethinker:

It is God (Jehovah) speaking through the first part of verse 16 in Isaiah 48 but I believe that the last part of verse 16 has to be Cyrus speaking saying, “and now Jehovah and His Spirit has sent me”.

Anything else does not make any sense.

Quote

Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I [am] He, I [am] the First, I [am] also the Last.

Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; [When] I call to them, They stand up together.

Isa 48:15 I, [even] I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.

Isa 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I [was] there. And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have [fn] sent Me.”

The verses 12-16 are a continuation of what was being said by God beginning with verse 1, and so it has to be God speaking in therse verses until the last part of verse 16. Jehovah and His Spirit is not sending himself but Cyrus.

Here is what the beginning of this chapter states:

Quote

Isa 48:1 “Hear this, O house of Jacob, Who are called by the name of Israel, And have come forth from the wellsprings of Judah; Who swear by the name of the LORD, And make mention of the God of Israel, [But] not in truth or in righteousness;

Isa 48:2 For they call themselves after the holy city, And lean on the God of Israel; The LORD of hosts [is] His name:

Isa 48:3 “I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did [them], and they came to pass.

And verse 13 also confirms with other scriptures that it was God, Jehovah who is the creator and laid the foundations of the earth, and so, Hebrews 1:10 has to be relating to what Jesus is doing through his ministry and as head of the church. Why would God tell him that it was he who laid the foundations of the earth as the creator? Would he not have already known this if this were so? Hebrews 1:10 has to mean from a prophetic stand point Jesus laid the foundations of the earth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

January 1, 2010 at 7:12 am#167623

terraricca

Participant

hi 94
i don't follow you i think you say that it is not Christ who laid down the foundation but his father if this is what you saying that right but the otherway around is also right,because Christ ,the word,was used by God to create all things.

January 1, 2010 at 9:42 pm#167692

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 01 2010,18:12)

Hi t:

God had a plan in the beginning and that is to make man in his image. The first man was made a living soul. He was like God in that he was a living person, with a mind, a will and emotions. The last Adam like God in that he is a spirit of love. The last Adam spirit was formed by God as Jesus applied the Word that God was speaking to humanity through him to his daily life.

In other words, Jesus obeyed the Word of God without sin even unto death on the cross. And it is through the life that he lived in obedience to the Word of God that we see God's character. And so, Jesus stated: “he who has seen me has seen the Father”.

And so, having forseen He (God) would send forth His Only Begotten Son at the precise time to be the propitiation for the sins of the world and that all of His children would be reconciled to Him in the body of Christ, He created all things both visible and invisible by him for him.

And so, yes, God created all things through and by His Word which is fulfilled in Jesus, His only begotten Son and His Christ.

And so if we read the following verses with what I have stated in mind perhaps Hebrews 1:10 will be a little easier to comprehend:

Quote

Hbr 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,

Hbr 1:2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;

Hbr 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself [fn] purged our [fn] sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Hbr 1:4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Hbr 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? [fn] And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son”? [fn]

Hbr 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.” [fn]

Hbr 1:7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.” [fn]

Hbr 1:8 But to the Son [He says]: “Your throne, O God, [is] forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of Your kingdom.

Hbr 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” [fn]

Hbr 1:10 And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Hbr 1:11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;

Hbr 1:12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.” [fn]

Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”? [fn]

Love in Christ,
marty

January 2, 2010 at 7:31 pm#168227

Participant

Marty said:

Quote

Marty,
You err greatly. It is not Jehovah God speaking from verse 1 through the first part of verse 16. It is someone else for he refers ro Jehovah in the third person.

Please note:

Quote

1 “Hear this, O house of Jacob,
Who are called by the name of Israel,
And have come forth from the wellsprings of Judah;
Who swear by the name of the LORD,
And make mention of the God of Israel,
But not in truth or in righteousness;
2 For they call themselves after the holy city,
And lean on the God of Israel;
The LORD of hosts is His name:

The speaker clearly refers to Jehovah in the THIRD person. At first glance it appears as if it is Isaiah the prophet speaking. But verse 12 incdicates that it is One who calls Himself the Creator who is speaking. He says that He is sent by Jehovah God and His Spirit (vs. 16). Show where Jehovah God speaks in this particular prophecy. He does not speak.

Again, the one speaking in the prophecy refers to Jehovah in the THIRD person. He is the exact same speaker in verse 12 and He claims that He created the universe. Then in verse 16 He says that He is sent by Jehovah God and His Spirit.

He said that He created everything with His own hands and the Father testifies that this is His Son:

Quote

Hebrews 1:8-10 (New King James Version)

8 But to the Son He says:

10 And:

“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.

Give it up Marty!

thinker

January 4, 2010 at 2:05 am#168454