- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,07:34) Since only Jehovah is ever called “creator” and since he apparently created everything 'through' Jesus, I would not call Jesus the creator. Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43)
I do not continually say that. I just point out that God created everything “through” Jesus. ie: He used Jesus to create everything. Hence, jesus is never called the 'creator.' Jehovah is.
Hi David,The First thing you say is NOT so apparent?
Please show everybody here so it 'may' become apparent?The next thing you say does NOT make any sense?
Could you please explain what you mean, Biblical references would also be helpful?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgWorshippingJesus said to David:
Quote I just showed you your example doesn't work because all things are “though God” just like all things are “through Jesus”, but you choose to ignore this point and proceed to create a smoke screen!
Yes WJ,
All things are through Jesus in the same manner that all things are through God. “All things came into being through Him. And without Him not one thing came into being that has come into being” (literal reading of John 1:3).The preposition “through” in John 1:3 means “by DIRECT agency” because it says that not one thing came into being without Him. The Word was not the first thing created and then the intermediate agent in the rest of creation. He was the immediate or direct agent in creation because not one thing came into being without Him.
God created through the IMMEDIATE and DIRECT agency of the Word.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 27 2009,11:34) God created through the IMMEDIATE and DIRECT agency of the Word. thinker
Hi TT,Yes, but “the word” is the “HolySpirit”!
The HolySpirit is “The Word”; get your facts straight!
Hebrews 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
the word(HolySpirit) of the oath (Isaiah 7:14), which was since the law,
maketh the Son(Jesus) (Matt.1:18 / Luke 1;35), who is consecrated for evermore.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgPS. Rather than you(thinking man) saying 'your wrong'(accomplishing nothing),
instead explain Hebrews 7:28 if you 'think' my assertions are erroneous.
Don't simply dodge this, like your pal WJ does.ED J said:
Quote The HolySpirit is “The Word”; get your facts straight! John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and that he was the Son from the Father.
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Word was the Son from the Father. The Holy Spirit was not the Son. So the Holy Spirit is NOT the Word.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Dec. 27 2009,12:25) ED J said: Quote The HolySpirit is “The Word”; get your facts straight! John 1:14 says that the Word became flesh and that he was the Son from the Father.
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
The Word was the Son from the Father. The Holy Spirit was not the Son. So the Holy Spirit is NOT the Word.
thinker
Hi ThinkingMan,I knew you were going to dodge my question; it seems diversion is the 'only answer' to challenging deeply embedded religious dogmas.
I will repeat my question that you so easily dodged; PLEASE explain Hebrews 7:28, if you 'think' my assertions are somehow erroneous?
Instead 'you choose' to parrot status quo religious propaganda(which resolves absolutely NOTHING)?John 1:1 in the AKJV Bible is translated correctly; while the N.W.T. (JW’s version) has John 1:1 translated in-correctly as ‘a god’.
And [ο λογος] Hō Lōgôs was [θεος] Thēôs; And “The Word”(“HolySpirit” is and) was “God”!Here are the FACTS, according to The Bible…
“The Word”(Holy Spirit) became fully flesh(in Jesus) at Jesus baptism by John;
He(Holy Spirit) led Jesus into the wilderness in Luke 4:1 and He(Holy Spirit)
caused Jesus to return from the wilderness in Luke 4:14! He(Holy Spirit)
also made Jesus aware that he(Jesus) would have to die on a cross for the sins of mankind!
This is how “The Word”(Jesus’ Father) was made flesh, and dwelt among us. (John 14:9 / John 1:14)Him, Her, He, She, it; all these pronouns originate from the same Greek word: [αύτος] ŏw-toś.
I have seen many people argue over the translators choice of used pronoun;
as if the translators choice somehow becomes 'Biblical Truth'?
Perhaps you(The Thinking Man) were never taught this in your religious institution?The JW’s believe that at the point of baptism by John (the baptizer) is when Jesus became the Messiah;
this view is consistent with the previous paragraph; which I’m sure they will disagree with.
This lack of consistency on their part is the very reason why Christendom thinks their Organization is 'a cult'.And here are the Facts according to Science…
Science suggests that blood in the fetus comes from the father’s genetics.
That would mean “Jesus”=74 had “GOD Blood”=74 running through his veins.
To put this in scientific terms (according to facts written in the Bible),
that would mean Jesus Genetics at his birth was ½ HOLYSPIRIT(Jesus’ FATHER; Matt.1:18),
¼ from the tribe JUDAH (Mary’s Father’s tribe; Luke 3:23-33)
and ¼ from the tribe of LEVI (Mary’s Mother’s tribe; Luke 1:5).
1Timothy 6:20 O Timothy(and Thinker), keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:It's the shedding of Jesus' Father's(HolySpirit) “God blood” that removes the sin of the world(Acts 20:28 / Heb.9:22).
“GOD The Father” raised Jesus back from the dead (resurrection); for our Justification(Rom.4:25).
“The Savior”=117 is “GOD The Father”=117; who is known in the Hebrew tongue as
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm, and there is NO OTHER! (Isaiah 43:11)If willing you 'choose' to turn your back to “Truth”, I will not argue with you;
you can believe whatever you want to believe, but you have heard “The Truth”.
My “ONLY” goal is to expose “Bible Truth”=117!God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orghi EDj
i am a fisher man ,so i have a fisherman question, (1)why no man can see God and live,? (2) why was it that at the mountain in the dessert wen God approach the Montaigne it was burning and noisy,? (3)we all agree that God create all things but tell me what did he created first?, (4)we all have learn and most of us trough pictures the vastness of the universe,could you tell me on witch rock God as is coffee,or how big or how small you think God is?
(5)you will tell me he is a spirit ,not physical right,so what is a spirit?do spirit have thrones to sit on,if they do ,they should have something to sit whit like a rear end.?(6)we know that the spirit is also thoughts what also can be translated into will,now what would happen if God would have created us without a body,we be still to his image is it ,yes God is spirit,but we would not be able to do anything beside thinking of a many things to do .is it not so ?(7)i believe God created The word who became Christ in time what God calls his only begotten son the first of all creation ,the means of the ability to performing what he has make his intention to do,that was to create the universe and us and everything in it.
this is my deepest believe and understanding of the scriptures.
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 27 2009,10:58) Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,07:34) Since only Jehovah is ever called “creator” and since he apparently created everything 'through' Jesus, I would not call Jesus the creator. Quote (david @ Dec. 26 2009,11:43)
I do not continually say that. I just point out that God created everything “through” Jesus. ie: He used Jesus to create everything. Hence, jesus is never called the 'creator.' Jehovah is.
Hi David,The First thing you say is NOT so apparent?
Please show everybody here so it 'may' become apparent?The next thing you say does NOT make any sense?
Could you please explain what you mean, Biblical references would also be helpful?God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Hi Ed.
I think you misunderstood that first statement that you quoted.
I was saying because the Bible does not do it (call Jesus “creator”) and since it only calls Jehovah “creator” …..”I” would not do it, “I” would not be calling Jesus “creator.” Maybe I should have clarified that. It's just safer to do as the Bible writers did.As for my second statement. There's a difference between being the one who is RESPONSIBLE for something existing, and the one who made that thing exist. Jehovah is responsible for it. It was HIS will, his holy spirit in action. It was his son that he used, to accomplish this.
ie: The “creator of facebook” is different than the people he used to create it. They cannot be called the creators, even though they “made” it or “built” it
Ok, “creator” is someone who “creates.”
To create is to “CAUSE to be or become,” “to CAUSE to exist, bring into being,”
The name jehovah (YHWH) means: “[He who] causes to become.”
His name pretty much is the exact definition of “creator.” It was by means of his will and his holy spirit that he caused these things to exist. It was his plan, his purpose, his will.It was Jesus that carried it out.
There is a distinction and in scripture, jesus is never called “creator.”
(As for the Biblical references, I cannot provide any because Jesus is NEVER called “creator.” There are numerous scriptures where Jehovah is. I'll let you find them. I know you know they exist.)
Quote The preposition “through” in John 1:3 means “by DIRECT agency” because it says that not one thing came into being without Him. The Word was not the first thing created and then the intermediate agent in the rest of creation. He was the immediate or direct agent in creation because not one thing came into being without Him. –thinker.
There is a host of scriptures that speak of Jesus as being the firstborn of creation, etc. (But we've all had that discussion a hundred times.)
I have a question for you thinker. Did Jesus use God's holy spirit to create everything?Quote So because the Father created everything through or by Jesus this means to you that Jesus did not actually create all things? –WJ
See my post above (I think 2 posts up.)
WJ, What is the difference between the Owner and the Manager of a store? Or the difference between the creator of a tv show and the producer?
The one whose will it is, provides the resources (holy spirit).
The other one carries out that work.But they go by different names.
Being a builder does not make you an architect. Building the house does not make you the creator of the house. It makes you the builder. The creator of the house is the one that supplied everything, the one whose idea it was, the one whose will it was.
Create means to cause to exist.
Ultimately, Jehovah caused everything to exist. He did so through Jesus. yet, Jesus is never called the creator. Why do you think that is?Quote But David Solomon wasn't the architect was he? Bad example!
–wj
Perhaps you noticed these words:
Quote We SAY he built the temple. He didn't literally built the temple.
Imagining that he (although it wasn't) the one who laid out the plans, we could say he was the creator of the temple.Notice how I said “imagining” and “although it wasn't.”?
I could just make up an example, and one that does fit better, but I prefer to use the bible where I can.
The Bible says Solomon built the temple. But he did not.
Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,19:05) Quote The preposition “through” in John 1:3 means “by DIRECT agency” because it says that not one thing came into being without Him. The Word was not the first thing created and then the intermediate agent in the rest of creation. He was the immediate or direct agent in creation because not one thing came into being without Him. –thinker.
There is a host of scriptures that speak of Jesus as being the firstborn of creation, etc. (But we've all had that discussion a hundred times.)
I have a question for you thinker. Did Jesus use God's holy spirit to create everything?
i think that firstborn can relate to being the first of something. doesn't mean they had to be created first, but was before all came to be. don't think there is a scripture that says the holy spirit or jesus were created or made. that they are eternal and have always been.they have always been even when the universe was just a void. when creation was made the illistration tht they are first of all or first born seens to ring true still wven not inplying actually being created first. just being first of all.
Nicean Creed:
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.Jesus speaking in John 10 claims to be God. He is either God or a liar for He says:
JN 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
JN 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
JN 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Jesus also states the following using an important term that reveals Him as God as well:
JN 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Moses asked God who he should says is sending him to Egypt and God responds:
EX 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.' “
In Matthew 28 we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If the three in one is not true then this teaching would break the first commandment.
In Acts 5 the couple are accused of lying to the Holy Spirit, to God:
AC 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Do we fully understand the Trinity? Do we fully understand how Jesus is full God and full man? Some will argue that 1+1 cannot equal 1. Do we fully understand the depth and breadth of God?
ISA 29:16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
“He did not make me”?
Can the pot say of the potter,
“He knows nothing”?How can God be Father, Son and Holy Spirit and exist at the same time as all three, yet be one? Do we fully understand the nature of God? Can we expalin His being? We see attributes, but do not fully understand Him. I will give a weak example from the physical realm that only gives a poor glimpse of how He is able to be one. Take H2O. It is found in three distinct states. Liquid, steam and ice, all H2O.Can the God of creation be in fullness in the flesh, ever present as the Holy Spirit and sitting ont he throne as Father all at the same time? Yes. Can we fully understand that? No.
food for thought. i have never believed in the trinity but there are some real good things that actually give a history of all three as far as there relationship together, not just the bible says jesus is god's son and that is that.
Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 28 2009,06:32) I will give a weak example from the physical realm that only gives a poor glimpse of how He is able to be one. Take H2O. It is found in three distinct states. Liquid, steam and ice, all H2O.
I agree with this bit here, or like light from the sun, all being from the same source, so all able to be called HTO or Sun.How each individual percieves God Son Holy Spirit is different too, and also can be influenced by things like reading which can all confuse ones perspective.
It is all still water, weather ice or steam or water
Iv been through many stages of 'how to pray'
When i went through the Jesus only stage, (as a kid) something powerfull (God) was missing
when i went through the Islam stage, something (the Son) was missing
when i went through the JW stage, something just wasnt rightNow I pray to God, not giving any distinction between Jesus and God, but funnily both together, its really hard to explain though?
I no longer need to try and figure anything out.
Quote (peace2all @ Dec. 27 2009,14:32) Nicean Creed:
I believe in one God,
the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible;And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only begotten Son of God,
begotten of his Father before all worlds,
God of God, Light of Light,
very God of very God,
begotten, not made,
being of one substance with the Father;
by whom all things were made;
who for us men and for our salvation
came down from heaven,
and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost
of the Virgin Mary,
and was made man;
and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried;
and the third day he rose again
according to the Scriptures,
and ascended into heaven,
and sitteth on the right hand of the Father;
and he shall come again, with glory,
to judge both the quick and the dead;
whose kingdom shall have no end.And I believe in the Holy Ghost the Lord, and Giver of Life,
who proceedeth from the Father [and the Son];
who with the Father and the Son together
is worshipped and glorified;
who spake by the Prophets.I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins;
and I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.Jesus speaking in John 10 claims to be God. He is either God or a liar for He says:
JN 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”
JN 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
JN 10:33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
Jesus also states the following using an important term that reveals Him as God as well:
JN 8:58 “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Moses asked God who he should says is sending him to Egypt and God responds:
EX 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: `I AM has sent me to you.' “
In Matthew 28 we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If the three in one is not true then this teaching would break the first commandment.
In Acts 5 the couple are accused of lying to the Holy Spirit, to God:
AC 5:3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Do we fully understand the Trinity? Do we fully understand how Jesus is full God and full man? Some will argue that 1+1 cannot equal 1. Do we fully understand the depth and breadth of God?
ISA 29:16 You turn things upside down,
as if the potter were thought to be like the clay!
Shall what is formed say to him who formed it,
“He did not make me”?
Can the pot say of the potter,
“He knows nothing”?How can God be Father, Son and Holy Spirit and exist at the same time as all three, yet be one? Do we fully understand the nature of God? Can we expalin His being? We see attributes, but do not fully understand Him. I will give a weak example from the physical realm that only gives a poor glimpse of how He is able to be one. Take H2O. It is found in three distinct states. Liquid, steam and ice, all H2O.Can the God of creation be in fullness in the flesh, ever present as the Holy Spirit and sitting ont he throne as Father all at the same time? Yes. Can we fully understand that? No.
food for thought. i have never believed in the trinity but there are some real good things that actually give a history of all three as far as there relationship together, not just the bible says jesus is god's son and that is that.
Hi Peace!Good post and good questions!
Blessings WJ
Hi David, you said…
Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,02:59) Ok, “creator” is someone who “creates.” Then you said…
Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,02:59) It was Jesus that carried it out.
If Jesus is the one that carried out the creation of all things then that means he is the creator, for how could he carry it out if he didn't create? Your own definition is “Creator is someone that creates!David you do believe what the scriptures says that “God Alone” and “By himself” created all things don't you?
That means simply that none other than “One Divine Being” called God carried out the creation.
Not God and “a god” and a force or power as you assume!
I have shown you that “all things are through the Father as well as through Jesus. So your argument holds no water!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Dec. 28 2009,17:15) Hi David, you said… Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,02:59) Ok, “creator” is someone who “creates.” Then you said…
Quote (david @ Dec. 27 2009,02:59) It was Jesus that carried it out.
If Jesus is the one that carried out the creation of all things then that means he is the creator, for how could he carry it out if he didn't create? Your own definition is “Creator is someone that creates!David you do believe what the scriptures says that “God Alone” and “By himself” created all things don't you?
That means simply that none other than “One Divine Being” called God carried out the creation.
Not God and “a god” and a force or power as you assume!
I have shown you that “all things are through the Father as well as through Jesus. So your argument holds no water!
WJ
Keith,
JW theology proper is “incoherent” just as Wikipedia says.thinker
i don't really think that if you beleive either that one is worse off than the other. both parties worship the father and have faith in the son and try to follow his steps.
i havent seen anything different to that respect of both views.
to me growing up and just acccepting – GOD is fahter and JESUS is his son , and not having any type of explanation of their connection or interworkings together as one is like going from A to C to F etc.. whereas the triune thinking fits the pieces together A to B to c to D etc..
it seems to show more of the connection and unity of what we have has humans a family unit and how it works to gether and fits in completeness and show it within god and his son and holy spirit. all it does i think it try to help you see or visualize how they are as one.
i don't think that jesus is exaclty 100% as god is because he would have had always the same qulaities and abilities as his father yet he needs his father. he is the copy of the invisible god and given his spirit on earth and was seeded by his spirit and thus a perfect man was born from god's spirit. he was given powers that only god has so that we humans do not get sidetracked and try to worship more than one God even if it was god's own hand , works being seen through jesus. we are to worship his son for not as god but as his son and mediator.
john 10:34,35 – is it not written in your law, I SAID, ye are god's? scripture cannot be broken
those are god's laws given, and here jesus said that I SAID, thus saying he was the one that gave the law thus being God.
to me he clearly repeatedly says that he came from god himself and all the works is also from god and his words and teachings are all god's also. that he was from god himself but made as man to show them so as to not confuse them that he is ALL god because they know one cannot see god. that is why he was so to speak a striped down version of God in visible form then being granted gifts of his power to show what his father can do and wants of them. he is god's son becuase they know he was born on earth as a son. great illistration for a mere human to understand to that effect
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
