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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2006,23:24) Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 27 2006,23:02) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 27 2006,22:59) Hi kenrch,
And will your own righteousness ever be enough?
We are given salvation in Christ who lives and works through us and the only useful thing we can do is let the Spirit control our lives and produce the natural fruit of the true vine.
Nick is your righteousness above that of the Pharisees?That which is Flesh is Flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit.
Rom 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; “for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:”
Hi kenrch,
Is the righteousness of the Son above that of the Pharisees? Surely you know it is.
That is what we can claim.
It is not of our works and they could never be good enough.Ps 46
” 7The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.8Come, behold the works of the LORD, what desolations he hath made in the earth.
9He maketh wars to cease unto the end of the earth; he breaketh the bow, and cutteth the spear in sunder; he burneth the chariot in the fire.
10Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
11The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of Jacob is our refuge. Selah.”
Heb 4
” 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. “
Nick are you being led by the Holy Spirit?Jesus asked “except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness” of the Pharisees [ Old Testament law] you shall no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 5:20).
Do you agree with what I wrote about the difference between the Old and New Testament?
What are the differences? We know that we are under the New Covenant and grace. Scripture says that we are led By the Holy Spirit. I explained with an analogy about the found wallet/billfold. Do you agree with that analogy?
This is how not one dot or a crossing of a T has changed the law. The New Testament Law is spiritual and no longer physical. There is no more letter of the law. The law is written on our hearts and no longer in stone.
Hi kenrch,
You said
“Nick are you being led by the Holy Spirit?Jesus asked “except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness” of the Pharisees [ Old Testament law] you shall no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 5:20).
Do you agree with what I wrote about the difference between the Old and New Testament?
What are the differences? We know that we are under the New Covenant and grace. Scripture says that we are led By the Holy Spirit. I explained with an analogy about the found wallet/billfold. Do you agree with that analogy?
This is how not one dot or a crossing of a T has changed the law. The New Testament Law is spiritual and no longer physical. There is no more letter of the law. The law is written on our hearts and no longer in stone.”
The righteousness coming through obedience to the Law was completely fulfilled by Jesus alone. The Pharisees were deceived. Jesus exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees and we can inherit the promise of eternal life he won if we are reborn into him. That Law remains but it is no longer the gateway as that is now Jesus alone for Jew and gentile.
The children of God are led by the Spirit of God. But are they? Perhaps some of the time. They will be but probably will not see it themselves till all is revealed at the return of the Master. They should be being led now but they must learn submission and allow that Spirit to lead them and to produce the works and the fruit of God's Spirit. That learning process we should be all involved in letting the truth of the Word soak into us and renew our hearts and minds according to that Word
Jn 17
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”Rom 12
“2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. “Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,20:36) Hi kenrch,
You said
“Nick are you being led by the Holy Spirit?Jesus asked “except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness” of the Pharisees [ Old Testament law] you shall no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 5:20).
Do you agree with what I wrote about the difference between the Old and New Testament?
What are the differences? We know that we are under the New Covenant and grace. Scripture says that we are led By the Holy Spirit. I explained with an analogy about the found wallet/billfold. Do you agree with that analogy?
This is how not one dot or a crossing of a T has changed the law. The New Testament Law is spiritual and no longer physical. There is no more letter of the law. The law is written on our hearts and no longer in stone.”
The righteousness coming through obedience to the Law was completely fulfilled by Jesus alone. The Pharisees were deceived. Jesus exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees and we can inherit the promise of eternal life he won if we are reborn into him. That Law remains but it is no longer the gateway as that is now Jesus alone for Jew and gentile.
The children of God are led by the Spirit of God. But are they? Perhaps some of the time. They will be but probably will not see it themselves till all is revealed at the return of the Master. They should be being led now but they must learn submission and allow that Spirit to lead them and to produce the works and the fruit of God's Spirit. That learning process we should be all involved in letting the truth of the Word soak into us and renew our hearts and minds according to that Word
Jn 17
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”Rom 12
“2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. “
You keep trying to change the subject?Ok, Here Jesus explains the difference between the Old and New Testament law.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.One is physical and the other (angry with his brother) is spiritual.
Mat. 5:21 Thou shalt not kill. The righteousness of the Pharisees Old Testament Law.
Mat. 5:22 Angry with your brother. The righteousness of the Spirit above the righteousness of the Pharisees and is the New Testament law.Do you see what I'm saying. Did you understand the analogy of the wallet/billfold (you never did answer)?
Nick you know scripture says God's children are led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14). Jesus gave us the Spirit to guide and teach us (John 16:13).
The law was a school-master, shut up, until the time that faith should be revealed.
For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus as made me free from the law of sin and death.
The O.T. law is also referred to as the minstration of condemnation, the new law in Christ as the ministration of righteousness.
What I see as the whole difference and essence of what Paul was driving at is this:
The only way the law can be established in righteousness, is in and through the spirit of Christ. Essentially, the keeping of the O.T. law was grounded on a soul-physical stance. An outward observance. The keeping of the O.T. law under the new covenant, is based on a soul-spiritual stance. We walk by faith, and not by sight. The soul-spiritual is an internal directive or observance. The law can only be kept through the new creature in Christ Jesus. Love being the key element in this relationship.
Likewise, the kingdom of God comes not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here, or lo there. Behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
Quote (jahman @ Sep. 28 2006,21:04) The law was a school-master, shut up, until the time that faith should be revealed. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus as made me free from the law of sin and death.
The O.T. law is also referred to as the minstration of condemnation, the new law in Christ as the ministration of righteousness.
What I see as the whole difference and essence of what Paul was driving at is this:
The only way the law can be established in righteousness, is in and through the spirit of Christ. Essentially, the keeping of the O.T. law was grounded on a soul-physical stance. An outward observance. The keeping of the O.T. law under the new covenant, is based on a soul-spiritual stance. We walk by faith, and not by sight. The soul-spiritual is an internal directive or observance. The law can only be kept through the new creature in Christ Jesus. Love being the key element in this relationship.
Likewise, the kingdom of God comes not with observation, neither shall they say, lo here, or lo there. Behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
This of course is true. We now have the Spirit to guide us better than the Letter of the Law ever could!But do you notice the difference that Jesus is pointing out between the Old Testament law and the New Testament law?
How the New Testament under the Spirit of God is MORE righteous than the righteousness of the O T and the Pharisees.
Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 28 2006,20:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,20:36) Hi kenrch,
You said
“Nick are you being led by the Holy Spirit?Jesus asked “except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness” of the Pharisees [ Old Testament law] you shall no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 5:20).
Do you agree with what I wrote about the difference between the Old and New Testament?
What are the differences? We know that we are under the New Covenant and grace. Scripture says that we are led By the Holy Spirit. I explained with an analogy about the found wallet/billfold. Do you agree with that analogy?
This is how not one dot or a crossing of a T has changed the law. The New Testament Law is spiritual and no longer physical. There is no more letter of the law. The law is written on our hearts and no longer in stone.”
The righteousness coming through obedience to the Law was completely fulfilled by Jesus alone. The Pharisees were deceived. Jesus exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees and we can inherit the promise of eternal life he won if we are reborn into him. That Law remains but it is no longer the gateway as that is now Jesus alone for Jew and gentile.
The children of God are led by the Spirit of God. But are they? Perhaps some of the time. They will be but probably will not see it themselves till all is revealed at the return of the Master. They should be being led now but they must learn submission and allow that Spirit to lead them and to produce the works and the fruit of God's Spirit. That learning process we should be all involved in letting the truth of the Word soak into us and renew our hearts and minds according to that Word
Jn 17
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”Rom 12
“2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. “
You keep trying to change the subject?Ok, Here Jesus explains the difference between the Old and New Testament law.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.One is physical and the other (angry with his brother) is spiritual.
Mat. 5:21 Thou shalt not kill. The righteousness of the Pharisees Old Testament Law.
Mat. 5:22 Angry with your brother. The righteousness of the Spirit above the righteousness of the Pharisees and is the New Testament law.Do you see what I'm saying. Did you understand the analogy of the wallet/billfold (you never did answer)?
Nick you know scripture says God's children are led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14). Jesus gave us the Spirit to guide and teach us (John 16:13).
Hi kenrch,
Jesus tightenered up the loopholes of the OT and made it impossible to be perfectly fulfilled. But that is not the Law of the Spirit. The Law of the Spirit is not a law of negatives but is of the spirit of that law, a Law of Love.kenrch, no problem here, Jesus and Paul were on the same page. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, even it includes:
1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,21:13) Quote (kenrch @ Sep. 28 2006,20:59) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,20:36) Hi kenrch,
You said
“Nick are you being led by the Holy Spirit?Jesus asked “except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness” of the Pharisees [ Old Testament law] you shall no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 5:20).
Do you agree with what I wrote about the difference between the Old and New Testament?
What are the differences? We know that we are under the New Covenant and grace. Scripture says that we are led By the Holy Spirit. I explained with an analogy about the found wallet/billfold. Do you agree with that analogy?
This is how not one dot or a crossing of a T has changed the law. The New Testament Law is spiritual and no longer physical. There is no more letter of the law. The law is written on our hearts and no longer in stone.”
The righteousness coming through obedience to the Law was completely fulfilled by Jesus alone. The Pharisees were deceived. Jesus exceeded the righteousness of the Pharisees and we can inherit the promise of eternal life he won if we are reborn into him. That Law remains but it is no longer the gateway as that is now Jesus alone for Jew and gentile.
The children of God are led by the Spirit of God. But are they? Perhaps some of the time. They will be but probably will not see it themselves till all is revealed at the return of the Master. They should be being led now but they must learn submission and allow that Spirit to lead them and to produce the works and the fruit of God's Spirit. That learning process we should be all involved in letting the truth of the Word soak into us and renew our hearts and minds according to that Word
Jn 17
“17Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”Rom 12
“2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. “
You keep trying to change the subject?Ok, Here Jesus explains the difference between the Old and New Testament law.
Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
Mat 5:22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.One is physical and the other (angry with his brother) is spiritual.
Mat. 5:21 Thou shalt not kill. The righteousness of the Pharisees Old Testament Law.
Mat. 5:22 Angry with your brother. The righteousness of the Spirit above the righteousness of the Pharisees and is the New Testament law.Do you see what I'm saying. Did you understand the analogy of the wallet/billfold (you never did answer)?
Nick you know scripture says God's children are led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14). Jesus gave us the Spirit to guide and teach us (John 16:13).
Hi kenrch,
Jesus tightenered up the loopholes of the OT and made it impossible to be perfectly fulfilled. But that is not the Law of the Spirit. The Law of the Spirit is not a law of negatives but is of the spirit of that law, a Law of Love.
The difference between Mat.5:21 and Mat. 5:22 is spiritual, wouldn't you say?The rest of the chapter Jesus is explaining the difference between the Two Testaments.
If we are guided by the Spirit then we will keep the law. And YES of course Love is of the Spirit and thus fulfillment of the Old Testament Letter of the Law.
I tried to explain this in that analogy of the wallet/ billfold. But you won't answer the question. Do you see the difference between how the OT law and NT law works?
Quote (jahman @ Sep. 28 2006,21:19) kenrch, no problem here, Jesus and Paul were on the same page. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, even it includes: 1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Right, J but do you see what I'm saying about the way Jesus was explaining it? The difference between the physical and spiritual.Here is an analogy:
You are walking along and find a wallet/billfold it has money in it. You take the money and throw the wallet/billfold away. Hey! You found that money you didn't steal it! That is the Old Testament Law.Again same as above but now you are led by the Spirit and you come across the wallet/billfold with money in it. Well look what I found your brain tells you. But the Spirit says NO!, NO!,NO look in the wallet find out who the wallet/billfold belongs to and RETURN it! New Testament Law
If you had disobeyed the Holy Spirit then my friend you HAVE sinned.
Hi Kenrch,
You said
“Jesus asked “except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness” of the Pharisees [ Old Testament law] you shall no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven (Mat. 5:20).”Remember WE do not enter the kingdom by works such as these anyway.
That way is not and has never been open for us gentiles so this was a statement to the Jews. We enter through the gate of the Son, by being reborn in him of water and the Spirit.yes, the same thing was referred to when Jesus also said, You have heard of old, thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say unto you, he that looks upon a women to lust after her (God help me) has committed adultery already in his heart.
This one I have often thought about, being a single red-blooded man as I am. In a way (and this is how the world thinks) ..how can something so beautiful be so horrible?
It really does have to do with the lust of the world. Anything that fixates the soul into the physical, leads to a hardening of the 'I' independant from God. It draws the soul away from that which is spiritual..and leads the soul downward on the path of sin and death.
Does anyone think that the Spirit would break any of the commandments?
Would the Spirit tell you it's ok to Kill? No! The Spirit says you can't be angry with your brother.
do they believe they should only follow the ten commandments and not the remaining 603?
Concerning the ten commandments the only one I ever intentionally break is the sabbath #4.
Otherwise, the ten commandments seem like fantastic and completely logical rules for life. I often wonder why we don't observe the sabbath. I was taught that we entered into the sabbath rest of Christ.
Quote (jahman @ Sep. 28 2006,21:40) yes, the same thing was referred to when Jesus also said, You have heard of old, thou shalt not commit adultery, but I say unto you, he that looks upon a women to lust after her (God help me) has committed adultery already in his heart. This one I have often thought about, being a single red-blooded man as I am. In a way (and this is how the world thinks) ..how can something so beautiful be so horrible?
It really does have to do with the lust of the world. Anything that fixates the soul into the physical, leads to a hardening of the 'I' independant from God. It draws the soul away from that which is spiritual..and leads the soul downward on the path of sin and death.
Right sin starts with the spirit. First you lust then it manifest itself into sin. So it starts in the spirit. That is why our righteousness has to be better than those of the Phrisees and the Old Testament. Because we have the Holy Spirit but the Old Testament and Phrisees were under the Letter because the Holy Spirit had no come in their time.Hi kenrch,
Rom 13
“8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,21:50) Hi kenrch,
Rom 13
“8Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.9For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”
If we follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit then we are children of God.Did you understand the analogy Nick?
Hi kenrch,
Following the Law does not make anyone a child of God but children of God should follow the Spirit.They have to show some profit on that investment God has made in them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 28 2006,21:55) Hi kenrch,
Following the Law does not make anyone a child of God but children of God should follow the Spirit.
I didn't say I followed the Law. Read the analogy Nick.
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