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There are 96,000 congregations I could point you toward that are definitely not trinitarian. Actually, besides JW's, I think there are two or three other religions that do not believe in the trinity.
Besides congregating together at public places of worship, we do also meet in peoples homes for what we call “book studies,” where we focuse on certain aspects of the Bible. They are usually little groups of about 8-12 people. Anyone can comment. All can share.HEBREWS 10:24-25
“And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.”Quote We differ on this issue as I believe you can be saved even if you believe in a trinity (We've discussed this on other threads), therefore in my opinion many of those in a “church” though lacking in truth are on the right path just further behind us.
HI seeking truth. You stated the above. But how can someone who doesn't even know who God is, and perhaps doesn't even realize that God has a name…I mean, many of those people, if you ask them what God's name is, they'll say Jesus…How can people who don't know the elemantary things and actually believe lies about God….I believe these people have LET THEMSELVES be blinded to the truth. (2 cor 4:4)
Quote My biggest struggle is between these two issues: 1) Not wanting to be isolated from meeting with others who love the Lord. (though doctrinally misguided)
2) Attending church where I here the word taught incorrectly. It makes me cringe and feel like I have just sinned somehow.
Hi Mercy. You're right. I have stepped into the Catholic church from time to time, to attend funerals, and even then, I feel creeped out. I just felt wrong.
And you're totally right on point 1 as well. It's quite the delema. The Bible commands us not to forsake meeting together, as some have the habit of forsaking congregating. Israel congregated. The early Christians congregated together and were truly brothers. So we want to be like them, but still, as you say, we wouldn't want to meet together with those who are blind to the truth. We know many think they are following Christ when really they aren't. (Mat 7:21) We know many believe lies, and have been decieved by Satan, and blinded by him. (2 cor 4:4)
So what do we do. Your concerns are both extremely valid.david
I recently had a visit for a JW. I read his his booklet called, “What Does the Bible Really Teach”. I agree with alot of their teachings. But I deffinately disagree with alot of them as well.
Jesus not 'bodily' resurrecting.
1 Corinthians 15:12-17
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there (W)is no resurrection of the dead?13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14and (X)if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He (Y)raised [a]Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
Jesus is Michael the Archangel (Michael is only one of many archangels)
Daniel 10:13
13″But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.Jesus is not to be worshipped
John 9:35
35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”
36″Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.”37Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.”
38Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him.
Jesus died on a stake not a cross. (I concede the text says stauros, however, notice this verse implying multipel nails)
John 20:25
25the other disciples, therefore, said to him, `We have seen the Lord;' and he said to them, `If I may not see in his hands the mark of the nails, and may put my finger to the mark of the nails, and may put my hand to his side, I will not believe.'1914 date of Christ taking his throne in heaven
This is just poor unvarifable eschatology. Spurious scriptural interpretations with no real world ability to discern prophetic fufillment. However, the JW must have Jerusalem taken by Babylon in 608 BC for their prophecy to fit and every secular and archaeological sources sets that date at 586 BC.
Only having communion once per year and only allowing those who feel in their spirit they are part of the 144,000.
I Corinthians 11:17-21 (everyone partook and it was at their meetings not annually)
17In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. 18In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. 20When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, 21for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk.
Special members of the JW are the 144,000. (It's clear who they are. Some of them may be from the JW if they are of one of the lost tribes. This is the Remenant of Romans 12)
4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.Just a few things I noticed.
The JW come to my door, but don't usually stay long. Especially if they have someone who is young in the Word and they being sensing that the one who is young in the Word is begininng to see the truth. Then they make the great escape. It does not take long to open the eyes of the ones who not indoctrinated to the truth of God's Word. Their hearts have not been hardened as of yet with the doctrines of men.
As for finding churched out there that are not trinity believers, it will be found in the non denomination churches most likely. These are the ones who have broke away from the mainsteam because they stand on God's Word. I am not saying all, but many. And numbers increase always.
And though I know that the JW is not the true faith, that does not mean I will stop loving them or that I won't try to help them understand that their religion is not sound. For there are many out there that are further from the gospel then these. Yet, there are also many who are closer as well.
Hi Mercy & all who have posted regarding this problem:
Until approximately two years ago, I was a member of a Penacostal oriented church. After several years of membership and gaining personal knowledge of the scriptures, I became aware that some of their doctrines and practices were different than my understanding of the scriptures, and so I went to God in prayer asking Him to correct them if they were wrong, or to show me if perhaps I was wrong in my understanding of the scriptures.
He showed me through a vision that He would correct them through me, and showed me that the way to approach someone in authority is to go to them saying, pastor, I have a different on some of the scriptures that you and the church are teaching. I am not saying that I am correct in my understanding. I would like to give you my understanding of the scriptures where we differ, and if we can not agree after we have discussed them, let's joing hands in prayer asking God to show us what He intended by these scriptures so that we can walk in unity.I submitted these differences to the pastors and they agreed to discuss them with me. There were two pastors who shared the pulpit at that time. They were husband and wife. He passed away, and she became the sole pastor of the church. She had promised on several occasions to discuss our differences with me, but several years went by and she never did, and so I wrote a letter to her telling her that I thought it was wrong for her not to do what she had promised. In response to my letter, she met with me, the Bishop of the church, and another elder, and she appologized for not meeting with me to discuss our differences and told me that the reason for the delay was because she had been very busy with taking care of her sick husband and trying to take care of the church. She thanked me for my patience, and she said she would get back with me soon to discuss these differences. She went back on her word, and so after going through the procedure given to us by our Lord when someone offends us (Matthew 18:15-18), I wrote to the pastor and the elders telling them that I was leaving the church.
But the Lord showed me through a vision that the pastor would come to a realization that He was trying to reach her through me, and that He would restore their ministry through me. I believe that I will be ordained as a Bishop based on a vision that God showed me at the onset of my salvation. God showed me that “sheep” do not correct pastors. But do Bishops?
I am currently worshiping at a non-demoninational church. Most of what they teach is scriptual and they do many good works, but they also teach the trinity doctrine, the doctrine of original sin, and perhaps others.
When I left the Pentacostal church, I wrote the pastor of the non-denominational church a letter and told him that I was going to worship God with them, but that I had a different understanding on some of their doctrine. I told him why I left the Pentacostal church but I did not give him all of the detail. He never answered my letter. After I had been there about one and 1/2 years and after a sermon about the divinity of Jesus, I wrote an E-mail to one of the pastors, not the same one I had addressed before, telling him that I had some differences with what was taught in that sermon, and asked him if I could meet with him. After we met and I discussed my understanding of the scriptures, He told me that he was like me at one time regarding the trinity doctrine, and offered to lend me a book explaining the trinity. After reading it, I returned it to him telling him that the author of book went to great lengths trying to justify the doctrine, but I still did not understand the scriptures that way, and I wrote to him telling him that my salvation was not dependant on my accepting the trinity doctrine as scriptual quoting John 3:16-18, Romans 10:9-10, and Romans 8:1. I explained to them that these scriptures do not indicate that I have to accept the “trinity doctrine” in order to be saved.
Anyway Mercy, your pastor is willing to meet with you to discuss the differences you have with the church. I believe that you should meet with him and let him know what you are thinking. He will probably try to convince you that the established church is correct in their teaching. You know that these pastors have been to the seminary, and many have advanced degrees. Don't get me wrong, it is good to study, but has God ordained them for their position.
I am not a member of the church that I currently attend, and I will not become a member unless I can agree with what they teach, but I enjoy worshiping God there. Also, my wife did not go to church with me where I was before because she said that she felt uncomfortable there, but she has started to with me to church here.
God has called us and is calling them also out of Babylonia. Let us pray for them that God will give them revelation knowledge of the truth, and let us also show them the truth by the example of our life and worship. We can worship God anywhere, and some of them are sincere Christians, and perhaps we also need some additional study.
Please also read 1 Co. 3 relative to all of this.
I hope this helps. I also gave a copy of my personal testimony to the pastors of the church that I currently attend. This should help them to know that I am not a heretic because I don't agree with their doctrines.
Mercy:
Quote I recently had a visit [from] a JW. Heiscoming:
Quote The JW come to my door Is there any other united body of worshippers who are fullfilling the scripture:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote Jesus not 'bodily' resurrecting. 1 Corinthians 15:12-17
12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there (W)is no resurrection of the dead?13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14and (X)if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He (Y)raised [a]Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
Mercy, in what way does this scripture contradict what we believe?Quote Jesus is Michael the Archangel (Michael is only one of many archangels)
The Bible nowhere uses the word “archangels” as though there were more than one chief angel or chief over the angels. It never does. And nor does that scripture condradict this.Quote Jesus is not to be worshipped
The scripture you find where the word “worship” appears is a mistranslation, or at least, an inaccurate one. Jesus said to worship God. The word translated worship has a variety of meanings. In many cases, that word refers to kings and other humans. It definitely, without question, doesn't always mean “worship.” It primarily means to fall down or bow down or show obeisance. If you look through older Bibles, you'll find that newer translations are using the word “worship” les and less with reference to Jesus. It's really up to the translator to decide where that word “worship” should be. And based on the rest of the Bible, I don't see Jesus asking for worship.Anyway, all, or most of these things have been discussed in other threads.
Quote I recently had a visit [from] a JW. –Mercy
I really haven't had anyone come to my door, or approach me at all.
Jesus: “Go therefore, and make disicples of people of all the nations…..”I agree visitations are a sign of good fruit.
However, Mormons visit me even more often. I think you would agree that because a group faithfully follows the great comission it does not mean they are scripturally sound. I have also been approached by Ba'Hai and Wiccans.
David,
I will concede to you that I feel JW's are far more scripturally accurate than most denominations. However, the areas I feel they fall short are pretty strong. In particular the whole prophecy 1914 thing they have.
The point about Jesus not being bodily resurrected therefore means that we won't be bodily resurrected. This was a gnostic heresy. I can only assume they get this spiritual concept from Jesus being “quickened in the spirit when he preached to the spirits in hell”. I realize that the resurrection “body” will be spiritual, but it is still a resurrection of and restoration of our our original bodies. That is why the sea, hades and death give up there dead respectively at the judgement for the second resurrection. Even the sea gives it up for those who died at sea. The point is Jesus resurrection is just like our future resurrection and our future resurrection is like his.
1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.Luke 24:39
39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”Phillipians 3:20-21
20… And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body.I will whip out my strongs and look into the worshipping Jesus verses. I realize we are not to worship him as God, he pointed that worship to his Father. However, I believe we can worship him as our Lord and Saviour, the Son of God. He is the exact image of the Father and all glory given to the son glorifies the Father. I will yield to a deeper study on this since you may indeed know something I do not.
You are correct that the term archangel is only used to describe Michael. However, the verse I quoted in my previous post indicates he has peers and equals within the angelic rank. In addition, though I know you won't accept this, all the apocryphal book describe mulitple archangels. ALL OF THEM! Granted they are not in our western protestant canon. But they are in every other canon in existence. The common knowledge of Christ's time was of multiple archangels existing.
Even if Jesus was Michael the Archangel, surely you must admit that without the JW's claming guidance by a prophet how can they dogmatically proclaim Michael and Jesus to be the very same being based off of the limited and circumstancial evidence they provide.Thanks for you help with this David.
942767,
Thanks for sharing your story. I will take your advice. I will also study over the chapter you posted. Very good advice and from the word no less.
David,
Where Michael is called Archangel in Jude is a reference from the assumption of moses, an apocryphal book. Also Enoch, an aprocryphal book is mentioned only verses later.
The very verse JW's use is a commentary from an apocryphal book.
Apocryphal books declare muliple archangels.
Sorry David,
I realized I got off topic. We can continue this in one of the topics about JW's Nick brought up for us.
Quote However, Mormons visit me even more often. I think you would agree that because a group faithfully follows the great comission it does not mean they are scripturally sound. I have also been approached by Ba'Hai and Wiccans.
You're right. Just because a group is actively following Jesus command to preach and just because a group is fulfilling the scripture where Jesus fortold a worldwide preaching work, doesn't mean they are truly Jesus followers.
But reversing it, what if a group isn't doing these things? Whereas preaching doesn't mean a group is scripturally sound, NOT doing so would actually mean that a group or person isn't scripturally sound. So, great, we've eliminated all but a few groups.
Of course, Wiccans and Bah hi without question go against several Bible teachings. And I'm not sure how wide their preaching activity goes. I really don't think there are wiccans in my city for example, making an effort to speak to everyone individually. It's highly doubtful.Yes, I have seen mormons going to people. I've ran into them a couple times. Once, I was working in a trailer park area, and encountered two mormons and we chatted. Later that same day, completely different part of the city, and the same two mormons. I know they're out there. I guess they feel the Bible is important enough to share with everyone. That is a good thing.
Quote However, the JW must have Jerusalem taken by Babylon in 608 BC for their prophecy to fit and every secular and archaeological sources sets that date at 586 BC. Quote In particular the whole prophecy 1914 thing they have.
First, I'd like to say that the world changed in 1914. It changed in many ways. Nothing has ever been the same.
I googled this. Try http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm for some reasons why the Bible just may be right and historians wrong. Historians and archiologists have often been wrong for years, only to have the Bible prove them so.As for Jesus' resurrection, let's pick an actual thread. The JW one will do if you like. I prefer to discuss one thing at a time.
As for Jesus being worshipped, there is a thread about this. I have said a lot on it. I'll try to find it.
Quote Even if Jesus was Michael the Archangel, surely you must admit that without the JW's claming guidance by a prophet how can they dogmatically proclaim Michael and Jesus to be the very same being based off of the limited and circumstancial evidence they provide. I think the evidence is quite strong, although not direct. Again, there's been a couple threads that have been started on this subject.
Quote (david @ Sep. 17 2006,23:40) Is there any other united body of worshippers who are fullfilling the scripture: MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
david, it depends on what the good news is.Mormons preach their gospel and they have apostles, prophets, etc. They even justify themselves as you have by saying things like what group is preaching to all the world?, “where are your apostles?”, etc.
So if we use that reasoning to say that JWs are the Body of Christ, then you would also have to add the Mormons too.
Then of course there are other groups that all preach their gospel, have their own apostles, prophets, etc. So we are back to the question: Are you a Catholic, Protestant, JW, Mormon, Moonie, etc.
Which one is correct?
Is it a lottery?
Choose the right denomination and you are part of the Kingdom.
Choose the wrong one and kiss your soul goodbye.To me the answer is simple.
Paul said it like this:
1 Corinthians 1:12
What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas “; still another, “I follow Christ.”The point is this. There is one body and it is made up of living stones. The body of Christ is not like any organisation on earth. Denominations are organisations of this world, but the Church is truly unique.
We should recognise our brothers and sisters and we know that we belong to God because our spirit bears witness with God's spirit that we are the sons of God.
It is a carnal mind that cannot see the body of Christ. A carnal mind needs to see an organisation like those you find in the world.
But the Kingdom is not of this world therefore we shouldn't expect to see an organisation like you find in the world.
What about being born again. They cannot even cross that hurdle. Do not get caught up in this deception. The JW believe only 144,000 will be born again if I am not mistaken. That is absurd. They do not believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The next time one comes to your door, ask them if they pray in tongues. They have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit. This religion is a cult. It is not sound. I have yet to meet a JW that was born again, have you? It says that a man must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God. That applies to all who call on the name of the Lord.
As for the 144,000, they will be Jewish men who have not been with women, virgins, and no guile was found in their mouths.
Quote So if we use that reasoning to say that JWs are the Body of Christ, then you would also have to add the Mormons too. As I expressly explained t8, I am not really saying that this proves anthing. I am saying that all those who are not unitedly preaching the good news of God's kingdom with fellow worshippers the world over, are not carrying out Jesus' command. So as I said t8, while it may not prove one thing, it seems to limit the playing field quite a bit.
Quote “where are your apostles?”, etc.
Are you asking if we have apostles, one who have been “sent forth”? That's funny.Quote Is it a lottery? You are wrong t8. It is not a lottery at all. As God fortold, the good news would be and is being preached in all the earth. The same exact message is being preached earthwide. So, if you're born a Catholic, or a whatever, doesn't give anyone an excuse. The Jews were born Jews. But they heard the message and had to change. No one is born a JW. Just because your parents are JW's doesn't mean you will be. (It is as the scripture said, about Jesus bringing a sword, mother in law against daughter, etc. It is exactly like that.)
Quote Choose the wrong one and kiss your soul goodbye.
Awww. Poor poor pharisees and sadducees and scribes. They chose the wrong religion. Is that how you feel? Jesus called those leaders serpents and offspring of vipers. He condemned them to gehenna. Do you feel sorry for them t8? Do you really?
Or perhaps they let themselves be in the wrong religion because they preferred certain things to friendship with God–money, traditions, prominence, etc.
Too bad for them. How awefully unfair. NOT AT ALL!! NOT AT ALL T8.
And this is why:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Quote Paul said it like this: 1 Corinthians 1:12
What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas “; still another, “I follow Christ.”
T8, we know that false brothers started creeping into the congregations and the fortold apostasy was about to begin. In fact, it had already begun. For one to follow a man, and there were some prominent men back then, seeking power, going against the governing body of Christians, would be wrong. Of course it's wrong to follow a man. Paul was upset over divisions which were wrongly beginning to form. Divisiions are wrong. Well guess what?
JEVOVAH'S WITNESSES are the MOST UNITED most undivided group on the planet. They are extremely organized. They are one, as Jesus fortold. Have you heard of quick builds? A person might go away for a couple days and come back and there is a kingdom Hall sitting across the street from them. And they can't believe it. It happens all the time. I believe the first quick build kingdom hall was in NZ actually. It's one example of how united we are. We can come together as a group, without squabling all willing to help in whatever way neccessary and erect an entire building in two days (minus the foundation). This makes the paper all the time.Quote The point is this. There is one body and it is made up of living stones. The body of Christ is not like any organisation on earth. Denominations are organisations of this world, but the Church is truly unique. I agree. We are not made up of denominations or divisions. We are unlike anyone else, in our unity and many other things.
Quote It is a carnal mind that cannot see the body of Christ
I again agree t8. It is so obvious.Quote But the Kingdom is not of this world therefore we shouldn't expect to see an organisation like you find in the world.
The kingdom is “heavenly.” We people are not. We can see people t8. Your reasoning is therefore false.Sorry.
david
As Rejocying said in the JW church thread:
I am studying every criticism that I hear about them. Most are unfounded and the teachings are more biblical than the accusers. I also noticed that people who know nothing of the JWs have an unexplained vehement anger toward them. This continues to amaze me.And then we have H's comment:
Quote What about being born again. . . . Do not get caught up in this deception. The JW believe only 144,000 will be born again if I am not mistaken. That is absurd. They do not believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The next time one comes to your door, ask them if they pray in tongues. . . .This religion is a cult. It is not sound. I have yet to meet a JW that was born again, have you? It says that a man must be born again to enter into the Kingdom of God. That applies to all who call on the name of the Lord. H, most definitions of “cult” do not apply. It is a word used to scare people. Yes H, a man must be born again to ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Being as that kingdom is a governemnt that will rule and judge over mankind, there isn't any need for everyone alive to be a part of that governement. (Kind of like the people in your country aren't all a member of the governement.)
I have to go
See you guys.david
To all about the divisions in the church:
To all of my friends who have posted relative to this problem:What we can learn from chapter 3 of 1st Corinthians is that it was not God's intent that we should be divided along denominational lines, but somewhere because someone had as different understanding of certain scriptures, they went and formed their own denomination instead of discussing their differences and going to God in prayer when they could not agree so that they could walk in unity, and so now God is calling his people out of Babylonia or confusion which is made evident through these all of these denominations and those who claim that they are Christians but are critisized as being cults. My concern here is not to judge, but if I have a different understanding of the scriptures than someone, it is either because I or they are in error or perpaps both of us are in error. I have a personal relationship with God, and so if I have a question, I can go to Him in prayer and He will answer. Jesus gave his life so that even the most wicked person on earth can be reconciled to God if they come to God through Him with a repentant heart. Romans 10:9-10 states: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation”. You can not come to God unless you are willing to confess Jesus is your Lord. He did not say that he is God, but you must be willing to be subjected to God through him if you are going to be saved. John 14:6 Jesus states: “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me”.
My understanding of the 144,000 is that they will be those in authority in the church in these last days. They are those who have not been difiled by women, meaning they are teaching God's Word in truth and have not been corrupted by false doctrine.
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