Seeking brotherly counsel about attending church.

[Mercy]

I have not been attending church lately. It stems from my indecision on whether I should or not. Below are 2 emails. The first was an explanation to my pastor why I have been absent. The second his response to my email. I am struggling with this issue and thought I could come to you guys for some guidance.

An email I sent to my pastor:

Thanks for your prayers it is appreciated. I do believe God has brought much
comfort to my family. Without turning to God for answers when I did, I know
I would not have dealt very well with loosing my uncle.

As for attending church, I don't want you to think that I am falling away
from walking with God or that I do not enjoy the fellowship of the church. I
really enjoy the worship and the love that is demonstrated at New Heights.

As you know I do indeed study the word and it is from this that I struggle
with the majority of churches today. I don't want to offend anyone but I
seriously feel that the majority of churches do not teach what the
scriptures actually tell us. It is struggle for me to decide what exactly I
should do. The scriptures tell us to “not give up meeting together”, while
at the same time it tells us to “come out of her my people”. In the
meantime I have been studying scripture and sharing with my family,
including extended family.

Many doctrines of mainline Christianity I don't believe the scriptures
teach, such as the trintiy, the state of the dead and the Rapture just to
name a few.

I know from your perspective some of my beliefs may be considered heretical.
I want you to know that I am a seeker who relies only on scripture. Human
creeds mean nothing to me. When one seriously looks at the scriptures
without having the presupposition of the creeds then I believe a different
picture emerges.

I believe that Christianity has changed over the last 2000 years. Some say
that Christianity conquered paganism, I find it more evident that
Christianity assimulated paganism. The Roman church did alot of damage and
the protestant reformation did not heal all of these wounds. It is simply my
honest desire to follow the counsel of Jude, the brother of our Lord, and
contend for the faith once for all entrusted to the saints.

If you ever wanted to talk about these issues whether to learn my views or
to attempt to correct my misunderstandings then I would be more than willing
to do so.

In Him,

Chris

The reply I received from my pastor:

Hi again Chris,

Well, I am glad that you are doing so well. I am also glad that you continue
to serve the Lord and minister to your family. I agree with allot of what
you say and how you feel about “church”. For the most part, “church” has
become nothing more than a social club, however not all churches are the
same and some are actually really attempting to follow Christ in all things.
At New Heights we are attempting to following the Lord's example of Mt.
22:37-39 “loving God first and our neighbors second”, we are also striving
to be true disciples of Christ as found in Jn 13:34-35, which says, “by this
all men will know that you are my disciples and that is that we love one
another”. It is our heartfelt desire to serve others and show the
“practical” love of Jesus by feeding the hungry, giving drink to the
thirsty, and praying for those that are sick…and our main priority is to
see the lost saved and make it hard for people to go to hell from York, NE!

While, I agree with allot of what you feel, I also disagree with allot of
what you feel. I don't think that the implication of “come out from among
them” relates at all with the church, which is the body of Christ…but it
relates to the world or “pagans” as you have called them. We are to be in
the world but not of it. Jesus spent most of His time with the sinners and
the sick…healing them and forgiving their sins…we are to do the same.
The bible does say to not “forsake the assembling of yourselves together”
for the main reason of fellowship, discipleship, and encouragement. We as
husbands and fathers are to lead our families in this, and our families need
the support, friendship, and fellowship that they will find in a life-giving
church. I believe we have that at New Heights and we continue to strive to
follow Christ in everything. Are we perfect, no, but we are striving to grow
and we are “being” perfected by Jesus Himself and we continue to yield to
Him and humble ourselves to Him.

Should we throw the baby out with the bath water? Absolutely not…and we
should NOT throw away all churches just because of the majority. Are there
hypocrites in the church absolutely, but we are not perfect either. I guess
I look at it this way…I can go to church with the hypocrites and try, by
my example to help them or I can do my own thing and not care about anyone
but myself?

Well, that is enough for now…yes, I would welcome the opportunity to
discuss these issues with you…however it is not my job to convince
you…that is the work and responsibility of the Holy Spirit….my
responsibility is to pray that He bring you revelation. I am always
available for coffee, breakfast or you can just come out to the church. You
have not offended me and I truly hope that I have not offended you…you are
a brother in Christ and I love you!

God's best! Pastor Tom <><

[seekingtruth]

Mercy,
Just this morning during prayer I believe that God gave me the same direction, to write a letter to the pastor and state what my differences are. I do not yet feel to leave the “church” but if after reading my letter they choose to expel me that is another matter.

I do believe there is coming a time when we will be called out and I believe it to be soon, but not yet. In the meantime we are lights in the darkness.

I thought your letter was very well written and would like to include parts of it in mine if that's ok.

[Mercy]

Thanks for your input. I think my Pastor made some good points in his response, however, he seemed not to understand that I was implying that “paganism” was not just in the world but also in the churches.

Yes you can use whatever you like.

[NickHassan]

Hi Mercy,
Well done. Be strong. The pastor made no effort to answer the serious questions you asked or to prove from scripture that what they teach is berean. Denominations are at best divisions, powerful and self serving human organisations, who, if they were part of the body of Christ have cut themselves off from the head of that body by refusing to abide in the Word of God.
Jesus said
” Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and everything else will be added to you”

“Seek and you will find”

and to Nicodemus.
” 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? “
And Jn 10
” 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.”

So it is not just a matter of leaving Babylon but being reborn into the Son and then prayerfully following his voice to find safety as you are already doing. But the wolf will not give up so easily on it's prey.

[seekingtruth]

Quote (Mercy @ Sep. 15 2006,11:28)

Thanks for your input.  I think my Pastor made some good points in his response, however, he seemed not to understand that I was implying that “paganism” was not just in the world but also in the churches. Yes you can use whatever you like.

It is unfortunate, many in the “church” have a zeal but lack in knowledge. I spent over 20 years as one of them. In a way I have come out from them, although I still attend on a somewhat regular bases, it's like I am not of the world but I'm still in the world. Besides how can I best help them with truth presented as a living witness or to leave them in their darkness?

It really helps having this site to help me grow, so I can better serve others, and to keep me on the straight and narrow.

[NickHassan]

Hi ST,
They can only come if the Father calls them. If you share what is written with them and they do not respond they are not yet called. Hard though it is to leave them to God and we have to let the dead bury the dead. Whatever plants were not planted by the Gardener will be pulled out and until they see their foundation is sand they will not want to move.

Only the grace of God has enabled us to see the kingdom and we can only be a lamp to them that they can hopefully see the light within and search for that light themselves.

[seekingtruth]

Nick,
Remember God allows the wheat and the tares to grow together.

We differ on this issue as I believe you can be saved even if you believe in a trinity (We've discussed this on other threads), therefore in my opinion many of those in a “church” though lacking in truth are on the right path just further behind us.

Don't get me wrong they need to grow in their understanding but so do we (at least I'm not there yet).

[NickHassan]

Hi ST,
Here is the parable in Matt 13
” 24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. “

So we are the field in whom the seed of the gospel grows.
1 Cor 3
” 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.”

Trinity is not of the gospel so is not the true seed.
The wheat are to be removed to the barn of God.

Where are men bundled in the church and what is their fate?

[He’s Coming in the Clouds]

Dear Mercy and Seekingtruth,

Mercy, I will speak with you first. Now, I don't know much of you church or the doctrine that they believe and I have to rely on your discernment, which I believe is credible or you would not be on this forum. For I believe that this forum, even though not perfect, bears more truth then that of most denominational churches. And the same goes for you seekingtruth. You both have taken steps to rid yourselves from the doctrines of men and it is because you seek the face of God and not the doctrines of men. You are putting your truth in God and not the flesh. You are growing in the faith.

Mercy, the church you come from sounds nice, but nice is found in many churches. What you need to do is write down the things you feel that are contrary that this church is doing, such as the trinity and possibly how baptism is done or what ever you feel they are doing that is not according to God's Word and go and speak to the pastor in the spirit of brotherly love. Yet, you should not do this alone. Do you have another that stands as you? For Jesus sent them out in groups of two. And sit down and hash this out. Do this with much prayer and supplication. Let the Holy Spirit lead you in all things and when you feel content either way, as to stay or to leave, then cease from meeting. But I would meet and continue to meet as long as you are being led by the Holy Spirit to do so. I feel this man that is the pastor of this church may be more then meets the eye. Give him a chance.

Seekingtruth, are you not catholic. I am sorry, but the best advice I can give you is to depart. I have yet to come to one catholic church that has stood upon the Word of God. And it is a shame too. Because before the Roman Emperors corrupted the catholic church, it was doing the will of God.

[seekingtruth]

Quote

Trinity is not of the gospel so is not the true seed.

If my salvation was based on obtaining a full understanding of God to be saved I would agree.

[seekingtruth]

Quote

Seekingtruth, are you not catholic. I am sorry, but the best advice I can give you is to depart. I have yet to come to one catholic church that has stood upon the Word of God. And it is a shame too. Because before the Roman Emperors corrupted the catholic church, it was doing the will of God.

heiscomingintheclouds,
Must have me mixed up with someone else. I attend an Assembly of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi ST,
It is safer to be one who ignores God,
than one who insults Him.
The fate of the Whore of Babylon, a religious organisation based in Rome with many daughters is worse than that of the common man.
Rev 17
“15Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Rev 18
“1After this I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, and the earth was illuminated by his splendor. 2With a mighty voice he shouted:
“Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great!
She has become a home for demons
and a haunt for every evil[a] spirit,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable bird.
3For all the nations have drunk
the maddening wine of her adulteries.
The kings of the earth committed adultery with her,
and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her excessive luxuries.”

4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
5for her sins are piled up to heaven,
and God has remembered her crimes.
6Give back to her as she has given;
pay her back double for what she has done.
Mix her a double portion from her own cup.
7Give her as much torture and grief
as the glory and luxury she gave herself.
In her heart she boasts,
'I sit as queen; I am not a widow,
and I will never mourn.'
8Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her:
death, mourning and famine.
She will be consumed by fire,
mighty is the Lord God who judges her.

9″When the kings of the earth who committed adultery with her and shared her luxury see the smoke of her burning, they will weep and mourn over her. 10Terrified at her torment, they will stand far off and cry:
” 'Woe! Woe, O great city,
O Babylon, city of power!
In one hour your doom has come!' “

[He’s Coming in the Clouds]

Forgive me seekingtruth,

You really have my curiosity up though now. Can you tell me the areas you feel the AoG are not standing on the Word. We have been at odds with them with their stand on women activities in the church. I am just curious of what things you might feel they may be lack in their stand or if they have changed to the doctrines of men.

[Proclaimer]

To seekingtruth.

Quote (seekingtruth @ Sep. 16 2006,17:20)

Nick, Remember God allows the wheat and the tares to grow together. We differ on this issue as I believe you can be saved even if you believe in a trinity (We've discussed this on other threads), therefore in my opinion many of those in a “church” though lacking in truth are on the right path just further behind us. Don't get me wrong they need to grow in their understanding but so do we (at least I'm not there yet).

I agree with you. I use to believe in the Trinity doctrine, and I know that I was saved. Even then, God spoke to me and did great things in my life. He did show me early on what the thought about me going to a denomination and the Trinity doctrine, but I didn't understand what he was saying because it seemed unfathomable to question these 2 things, and I thought that God must have been talking about something else.

But in time it became clear, that he wanted me to come out of the denominational system and to not build anything on the Trinity foundation.

I am sure that the message that most christians give today is probably unrecognisable from that which Paul and the other Apostles taught and preached. But they are still christians and sons of God if they have the Spirit of God in them. Their doctrine may be way off, but Jesus is coming back for a bride that is spotless and without blemish and he hasn't come back yet.

The people I would be most concerned about are those who actually teach the Trinity doctrine. Such people would have to be false teachers, especially if they teach it as foundational.

When I believed in the Trinity it was really because of ignorance and a lack of maturity in the faith. But I think that if I was teaching the Trinity as the foundation of the christian faith, then I too would have been a false teacher. Thankfully I never taught or preached the Trinity doctrine, because the Spirit never led me to. So it never crossed my mind to speak of the Trinity when witnessing or teaching. The only time I spoke about the Trinity was when it was specifically mentioned and then I gave my approval even if I did not understand that which I was approving.

[seekingtruth]

T8,
I agree teaching puts us on a whole other level.

James 3:1
Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.

Ephesians 4:14
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.

These are the ones you can reach. Their hungry (babes) but are blown about.

[seekingtruth]

heiscomingintheclouds,
The AOG, if you go down their list of fundamentals my only major concern is:
WE BELIEVE…There is only One True God–revealed in three persons…Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (commonly known as the Trinity).

I do believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit reveal God to us. But, The Father is greater then the Son (He is His God). I'm not sure exactly what the Holy Spirit is yet (still seeking a better understanding) but I do know that He (if He is a separate being) is not equal to the Father, who is the one true God.

One good thing about the AOG, they do not dictate to the local “churches” what to believe leaving them free to seek God's will (unfortunately they fall back on the doctrines of men).

My other real concern is that the “church” as a organization does not stand out against the world, but has become part of the world. The true Church is the body of Christ (true believers everywhere) not an organization.

[Mercy]

My biggest struggle is between these two issues:

1) Not wanting to be isolated from meeting with others who love the Lord. (though doctrinally misguided)

2) Attending church where I here the word taught incorrectly. It makes me cringe and feel like I have just sinned somehow.

[Proclaimer]

I personally do not get much out of denominational meetings. But I find that even though the programs do not benefit me, the people can. Sometimes when they are allowed to give testimonies, I can get really encouraged.

But by and large I think they are quite boring though, mainly because of how they limit God. They fit God into programs, but God is much bigger than that.

Currently I get fellowship at homes with other believers and I truly look forward to those kinds of meetings because they are true fellowship as you are free to let God do whatever if you want. There are no restrictions and rather than a sort of entertainment setup where 5% do all the work while the other 95% sit and watch and get to say yeah yeah every so often, everybody in a home gets to participate and ask questions etc.

It's real casual. Bring a teaching, a psalm, song, and some food.

[He’s Coming in the Clouds]

Dear t8 and all,

I think some of the best churches will be found in that of the homes, but not all. I believe there are remnants of churches who still stand on the Word of God and still do things in accordance with scripture as pertaining to the order of the church in all matters.

Although not many are standing in the completeness of the faith. Most have a form of godliness, but deny the power of the Holy Spirit.

Last Sunday, the Lord led me to go to a Methodist church were a brother in the Lord worships. Now, I have talked with this brother and I would not doubt his stand in the faith for a minute. It just so happened that the Lord led me to go to his church on this day and that the preacher or minister had taken ill. So they asked that my friend take his place to give the Word. It was bland to say the most. I enjoyed it and nothing was done contrary to the Word, but it was bland. I could not feel any real moving of the Holy Spirit other then what I brought within me.

Now, I have talked with this man and his understanding is powerful. So why wasn't the Holy Spirit moving in the church? The Lord brought to my rememberance something that this man, this friend of my said to me. He was talking about John Wesley, who is one of the men I believe who wrote allot of doctrine, the words of men, for the Methodist religion. As long as these people continue to subscribe to the words of men, I can't see their church services being anything other then bland.

[Mercy]

I don't really have anyone other than my immeadiate family to meet with if we don't attend church. The church I currently attend is the best in the area so I don't have any other options without seeking out neighboring towns. I don't know of any denominational churches that are not trinitarian.

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