Scripture Seeker

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 17 2006,00:25)

Hi kenrch,
Can you tell whom God has chosen to save?

Nick,

You don't believe your own teachings. If the teacher won't stand on his own teaching then that teacher must know that his teaching is wrong. Even the teacher doesn't believe it! LOL

But he will continue to “try” and twist scripture, change the subject, say what he believes are words of wisdom rather than words from scripture. I have no other option but to believe that the teacher is puffed up and will not say he is wrong even when he knows he is wrong. The teacher knows he is wrong by not answering simple questions about what he teaches.

It is not the water that saves.
It is not the wine that saves.
It is not by works that we are saved.

It is by faith! After faith the others will follow.

October 17, 2006 at 1:57 pm#30677

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2006,19:46)

It is not the water that saves.
It is not the wine that saves.
It is not by works that we are saved.

It is by faith! After faith the others will follow.

Hi Ken,

You mean to say that we are saved by grace
thru
faith.

And I still believe that you dissect faith since belief is not the whole of it, as scripture demonstrates:

this is why mere works without belief is not faith, as is mere belief without works not faith.

October 17, 2006 at 2:56 pm#30678

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 17 2006,14:57)

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2006,19:46)

It is not the water that saves.
It is not the wine that saves.
It is not by works that we are saved.

It is by faith! After faith the others will follow.

Hi Ken,

You mean to say that we are saved by grace
thru
faith.

And I still believe that you dissect faith as belief is not the whole of it as scripture demonstrates:

this is why mere works without belief is not faith, as mere belief without works is not faith.

You cannot have good works unless you have faith.
Unless you have faith you can get dunked many times with no results.
Unless you have faith then the wine is wine and not the blood of Christ.

We are justified by faith and not works. It can't be any plainer.

Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Rom 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;

Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

It is faith that saves you.
If you don't have works then you never did have faith and were never saved.

Therefore James is saying that if you don't have works then you never had faith and your faith is dead.

SCRIPTURE says it is by faith and not works that we are saved.

October 17, 2006 at 2:59 pm#30679

Participant

The attempt to dissect obedience from belief is what is creating the confusion. Belief + Obedience = 1 whole living faith, however small as a mustard seed.

Believe and be baptized, isn't it?

Matt 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in* the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Which comes first? It is almost certain that those who truly believe and repent would want to get baptized after the tradition of Christ himself. We were instructed to go preach Jesus and to baptize those who believe in his name. We were not given to decide and dispute on matters that God has reserved for himself. Whether or not baptism and communion are symbolic or actual, whether or not they save?…. God saves, I know that. Jesus spat into mud and put it over someone's eyes and asked them to go wash up, and they came seeing. That leper was asked to go bathe seven times in the Jordan and he almost didn't, thinking the waters in his own country were better! Hey, if God said it, that's good enough for me and I don't have to understand it to do it because I am sure he didn't say it in vain.

Acts 1:6 So when they met together, they asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Psa 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins]; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

October 17, 2006 at 3:06 pm#30680

Participant

Ken,

What do you understand by “faith,” if you have to explain it to me?

October 17, 2006 at 4:28 pm#30683

Participant

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 17 2006,16:06)

Ken,

What do you understand by “faith,” if you have to explain it to me?

Cubes,

What is faith?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

****Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:
Rom 10:10 for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. **** Saved by faith.

Act 3:16 And by faith in his name hath his name made this man strong, whom ye behold and know: yea, the faith which is through him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Act 26:18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me.

Rom 1:17 For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.

Rom 3:27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith.

Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Rom 3:30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 5:1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;

Rom 5:2 through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

**Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; **

Rom 11:20 Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 16:26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:

2Co 5:7 (for we walk by faith, not by sight);

**Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, EVEN WE BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY “FAITH” IN CHRIST,even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified **

**Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? **

Gal 3:5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.

Gal 3:22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Phi 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of mine own, even that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith:

Heb 4:2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard.

Heb 10:38 But my righteous one shall live by faith: And if he shrink back, my soul hath no pleasure in him.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds have been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen hath not been made out of things which appear.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he had witness borne to him that he was righteous, God bearing witness in respect of his gifts: and through it he being dead yet speaketh.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God:

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God concerning things not seen as yet, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; through which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:9 By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Heb 11:11 By faith even Sarah herself received power to conceive seed when she was past age, since she counted him faithful who had promised:

Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac: yea, he that had gladly received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;

Heb 11:20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau, even concerning things to come.

Heb 11:21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.

Heb 11:22 By faith Joseph, when his end was nigh, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Heb 11:23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months by his parents, because they saw he was a goodly child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

Heb 11:27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Heb 11:28 By faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of the blood, that the destroyer of the firstborn should not touch them.

Heb 11:30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they had been compassed about for seven days.

Heb 11:31 By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with them that were disobedient, having received the spies with peace.

**1Pe 1:5 who by the power of God are guarded through faith unto a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Let me ask you cubes, If a young soldier accepts Christ then catches a bullet and dies. He has had no chance to get water baptized and show the works of his salvation is the solider saved?

It is by faith that we are saved. If the young solider became a war hero by saving other soliders and has no faith will the solider be saved.

You cannot put anything before faith. All things come AFTER faith in Jesus.

You and others believe that it is by faith and works that you are saved. I'm saying that faith alone will save you if you had no chance to show the fruit of salvation.
If you claim to have faith and accepted Jesus but showed no fruit of you
r salvation then you had no faith to begin with.

**Gal 3:2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? **

Works and water neither bread and wine will save you accept by faith.
These things mean nothing unless you have faith.

October 17, 2006 at 5:50 pm#30684

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2006,14:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 17 2006,00:25)

Hi kenrch,
Can you tell whom God has chosen to save?

Nick,

You don't believe your own teachings. If the teacher won't stand on his own teaching then that teacher must know that his teaching is wrong. Even the teacher doesn't believe it! LOL

It is not the water that saves.
It is not the wine that saves.
It is not by works that we are saved.

It is by faith! After faith the others will follow.

Hi kenrch,
Who is your teacher?
Should you judge other vessels?

October 17, 2006 at 6:20 pm#30685

Participant

Hi,
Here is the salvation story laid out for us by Jesus.

Lk 15
” 11And he said, A certain man had two sons: “

THE REBELLIOUS GENTILES

“12And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him. “

REPENTANCE AND FAITH

“17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son. “

BAPTISM IN WATER AND THE SPIRIT

” 22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.”

THE FAITHFUL JEWS

” 25Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.

26And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.

27And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.

28And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.

29And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:

30But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

31And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.

32It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.”

So would God tolerate the stench and filth of the sin encrusted gentile in his house? No. He covered him with the wedding garment, the robe of righteousness of Jesus and put the ring of the Spirit's power and His authority on his finger. Thence washing by the word continues the process.

Note the similarity with Zech 3
” 1And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.”

We can only approach the throne of God washed.

Heb 10
” 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21And having an high priest over the house of God;

22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.”

We must not be found unclothed at the wedding feast.

Matt 22
“Matthew 22:12
'Friend,' he asked, 'how did you get in here without wedding clothes?' The man was speechless”

Gal 3
” 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. “

We obey.
And that clothing is what we are dressed in in water baptism into the death of Jesus.

October 17, 2006 at 7:39 pm#30687

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 17 2006,18:50)

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2006,14:46)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 17 2006,00:25)

Hi kenrch,
Can you tell whom God has chosen to save?

Nick,

You don't believe your own teachings. If the teacher won't stand on his own teaching then that teacher must know that his teaching is wrong. Even the teacher doesn't believe it! LOL

It is not the water that saves.
It is not the wine that saves.
It is not by works that we are saved.

It is by faith! After faith the others will follow.

Hi kenrch,
Who is your teacher?
Should you judge other vessels?

Yep that old Nick is starting to come out again.

Who is my teacher? Jesus is my sepherd and the Holy Spirit my guide and teacher. How about your teacher?

You refuse to answer questions about your teachings FROM SCRIPTURE.

If I were in your shoes I would be miserable knowing I was wrong yet not admitting I was wrong for prides sake.

You won't answer the simplest question about your teaching. If you believe you are correct then why not answer the Questions.

It is not I who judges but He who lives in me. It is the WORD that judges you.

You have a zeal for God but if you believe your teaching then you don't know God.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye shut the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye enter not in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering in to enter.

Mat 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he is become so, ye make him twofold more a son of hell than yourselves.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye tithe mint and anise and cummin, and have left undone the weightier matters of the law, justice, and mercy, and faith: but these ye ought to have done, and not to have left the other undone.

Nick you are judging yourself by not answering simple questions about your teaching. If you are a teacher then teach. But if I believe you are teaching falsely then the burden of proof is on you. The only way you can prove your teaching is to answer those simple questions.

Gee! All I asked was to answer some questions. You have yet to answer one question and have made it clear that you yourself won't stand on your own teaching. How am I to think otherwise that I am correct and you are wrong. I truly know you are wrong. Because God is a God of love not some evil god that would refuse salvation to those who had not a chance to be baptized or perform works.

You know that your teaching goes against the very nature of the Father and Son.

October 17, 2006 at 7:47 pm#30688

Participant

Hi kenrch,
Why waste all this time attacking me?
I know I am of limited use to many but I do my best.

“How am I to think otherwise that I am correct and you are wrong.”

Proving to yourself you know more is fine so lets move on.
If you find me inadequate that is OK and you should rather go and listen to others.

It is not a contest is it?

October 17, 2006 at 8:31 pm#30690

Participant

Hi kenrch,
You say

“Nick you are judging yourself by not answering simple questions about your teaching. If you are a teacher then teach. But if I believe you are teaching falsely then the burden of proof is on you. The only way you can prove your teaching is to answer those simple questions.”

“Gee! All I asked was to answer some questions. You have yet to answer one question and have made it clear that you yourself won't stand on your own teaching.”

I do not have my own teaching to stand on but the Word of God so what do you mean?

October 18, 2006 at 2:37 am#30744

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 17 2006,21:31)

Hi kenrch,
You say

“Gee! All I asked was to answer some questions. You have yet to answer one question and have made it clear that you yourself won't stand on your own teaching.”

I do not have my own teaching to stand on but the Word of God so what do you mean?

Jeepers Nick I asked you why do you continue to bring up this subject over and over. All I'm doing is responding to yout post!!
Am I not to defend the truth and just accept your prideful attempt to distort the truth?

If you wish to just drop this subject that's fine but if you bring it up again you will be met with the same scriptural truth as now.

If your teaching is from God then why do you not answer simple questions. This teaching is NOT from the Holy Spirit it is from Nick Hassin which is why you won't even take a stand and answer questions. Questions that prove your doctrine wrong.

Must I repeat the questions again! I think not if you don't see I'm sure those who are supposed to see will clearly know the truth if they are led by the Spirit.

Why not seek the Lord on this Nick. Have you done so yet? If you have then you know that you are wrong in saying that God is a murderer. That is what you are teaching isn't it? If a person cannot get to water OR perform works before the person dies God will burn that person.
Is that what you teach? Or have you changed your mind I pray you have But I fear your pride will be in the way.

Personally I believe I'm wasting my time but the Lord wants you to be sure of what you are teaching. Are you sure what your are teaching is the truth? I can't believe you are sure, if you were sure you would have answered all those simple questions. After all if you are a teacher shouldn't you answer questions? I have had teachers say “I don't know but I'll find out” Or EVEN I was wrong here is what that scripture means. In Fact I never had a teacher who would not answer questions have you Nick?

October 18, 2006 at 3:36 am#30746

Participant

Hi kenrch,
You go and find out
and come back and tell us,
then you won't have to badger us will you?

October 18, 2006 at 12:57 pm#30758

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 18 2006,04:36)

Hi kenrch,
You go and find out
and come back and tell us,
then you won't have to badger us will you?

Go find out what? I gave you the answers that you know are correct. I certainly understsnd the elementary principals of Christianty.

Heb 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

I'm not bagering anybody that I'm aware of. You kept bring it up and I responded. Sounds like you are angry because you have no answers. That's no surprize to me maybe to others who read the posts but not me.
You went from “we” to “us”. Aren't we or us able to speak or do they speak through you?

Cult:

1) A system or community of “religious” worship and ritual.
2a) “Obsessive devotion to a person or ideal”
2b) a group of persons sharing such devotion

If these people rely on you to speak for them they are part of a cult they are truly the “WE AND US”

October 18, 2006 at 1:13 pm#30759

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 18 2006,04:36)

Hi kenrch,
You go and find out
and come back and tell us,
then you won't have to badger us will you?

Go find out what? I gave you the answers that you know are correct. I certainly understand the elementary principals of Christianty.

Heb 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

I'm not bagering anybody that I'm aware of. You kept bring it up and I responded. Sounds like you are angry because you have no answers that would allow you to keep your pride. That's no surprize to me maybe to others who read the posts but not me.
You went from “we” to “us”. Aren't we or us able to speak or do they speak through you?

Cult:

1) A system or community of “religious” worship and ritual.
2a) “Obsessive devotion to a person or ideal”
2b) a group of persons sharing such devotion

If these people rely on you to speak for them then they are part of a cult they are truly the “WE AND US” that you continue to speak of unless the we and us are in your head only.
You are so puffed up that would not surprise me either.
BTW you don't tell me “to go do anything”, OK?!

I told you Nick you are not my leader I follow NO fleshly being on earth that would include especially you.

You wish to drop the subject Ok I told you I'm only responding to your post.

October 18, 2006 at 5:32 pm#30761

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2006,22:28)

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 17 2006,16:06)

Ken,

What do you understand by “faith,” if you have to explain it to me?

Cubes,

What is faith?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.

Ken,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. I have already said quite a number of times that we are saved by God, in his grace, thru faith, for while we were yet sinners, he sent us his beloved, only begotten son, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Quote

You and others believe that it is by faith and works that you are saved. I'm saying that faith alone will save you if you had no chance to show the fruit of salvation.

I am NOT saying faith + works. That's where you misunderstand me.

I am saying Faith IS, CONSISTS of, and COMPRISES of belief in God (Hebrews 11:1-3, 6, 11, 19), obedience (Hebrews 11:6, 7-8, 17, ), righteous works (Hebrews 11:4, 6, 5, 8-9, 17, 23, 24, 27), e.g. the lady with the issue of blood who touched the hem of Jesus' garment demonstrated such faith.

This is by no means exhaustive of Hebrews 11, and ideal faith is characterized by love. Mary of Bethany who anointed Jesus with the costly oil, in my understanding of faith, was such a one, but it is her love for Jesus which we see magnified above all, and yet, did it not embody faith?

One word can describe faith, such as belief, but it is not the only description of faith. One word can describe love, such as compassion, but it is not the only description of love.
God is love, and yet that is not all that he is. Upon closer examination, we realize that all those other aspects of his nature (e.g. holiness, faithfulness, patience, forgiveness, goodness, justice, truth, etc) are aspects of LOVE.

So when we are truly loving someone, all those facets are often simultaneously exhibited, from the least to the great, the poor to the rich. Of course we are also imperfect and fall short…

Similarly with faith.

James does for his discourse on faith, what Paul did about love.

So I say that the bible means for us to understand that, at the moment one is declared to have genuine faith or love, God has already seen evidence of such multi-faceted fruit, however humble or small as a mustard seed. This is how he can declare it as actual faith or love etc. Long before the Apostle Peter visited Cornelius, God knew what sort of person he is. It was God's idea to send for Peter. Similarly with the Ethiopian Eunuch: God's idea to send Phillip to him. These are towering examples of the righteous gentiles.

But what of the thief on the cross who didn't have such a testimony beforehand? who can say what was stirring within him all night and day long when the uproar of Jesus' trial and subsequent crucifixion was taking place? We do not know, but here is what we do know:

I am willing to believe that he demonstrated love towards Jesus when he acknowledged that Jesus was innocent… he could have kept silent. Peter had denied him, remember? But as Abel's offering which yet speaks, does this thief's testimony of Christ not still speak to us today, as does the memorial anointing of Mary of Bethany's?

Not to mention the thief was dying with Jesus and so could have given nothing more of himself except his willingness to suffer much more on his behalf had the soldiers been inclined to prolong or intensify his suffering for speaking up. Such as he had, he gave: his acknowledgement of Jesus as the innocent lamb of God (obedience and belief), his defense of Jesus against lies and wickedness (works of love); in that doing, he also demonstrated he held no unforgiveness towards those who crucified him as he didn't blame anyone but himself for his predicament; simultaneously, he also acknowledged the righteousness of Jesus and sought hope of the resurrection that comes through him (believe, obedience).

Jesus said “ASK” and it shall be given unto you…. Well, this man BELIEVED, LOVED, OBEYED and DID ASK even under his seemingly hopeless circumstances, and received! There is your living faith.

October 18, 2006 at 5:40 pm#30764

Participant

Should we therefore wait till the last minute on our death bed to believe and follow Jesus? The scriptures actually admonish us to walk while it is still day. So no, we should not wait but respond now!

October 18, 2006 at 6:01 pm#30766

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2006,22:28)

It is by faith that we are saved. If the young solider became a war hero by saving other soliders and has no faith will the solider be saved.

You cannot put anything before faith. All things come AFTER faith in Jesus.

Hi Ken,

I've answered these similar questions of yours at least twice before but let me try again.

If the soldier laid down his life for his friends… no greater love has any man than to lay down his life for his friends….

And yet, not all who would do such a thing would enter into the kingdom of heaven if they are found to be without love. (1 Cor 13). Also don't forget, there is the whole thread regarding war, so we can't just conclude that because a professed christian (baby or matured) that they are automatically saved OR not saved. God knows the heart, history and surrounding circumstances of events leading up to that point in time.

So these are matters reserved for his son whom he has appointed judge. Moreover he knows what things are done for His sake and glory, and if he is pleased, who am I to disagree?

October 19, 2006 at 3:35 pm#30831