Scripture Seeker

[kenrch]

Quote (Sultan @ Oct. 07 2006,01:45)

I believe the real issue here is not whether it's faith and works, but which comes first. The Bible teaches that it requires faith to be saved, but true faith will produce the works of God (i.e. Repentance,baptism). If I truely receive the Word of God, I will by the grace of God be granted repentance. Then there will be the transfer of my faith from sin to The crucified Lord. After that comes baptism. By the way Salvation is of the Lord. Any works of God that we demonstrate is a manifestation of the Grace of God, and not of ourselves.

Amen Sultan! Thank you! And God bless!

[Cubes]

Thanks, everyone, for all your insightful posts.

Ken,

GOD is spirit.  He motivates us by his spirit to respond to his grace, thru Jesus as Sultan and others have already shared.  This grace as I also said before, comes first.  And now his grace has gone forth.  What then?  My posts have been concerned with our responsibilities since God has already done his part.

This responsibility God, Jesus and Paul call faith.  Scripture defines it by action.  James calls it works, and yet, not in the sense that Paul uses “law and works.”
 
I also agree that faith is spiritual, as are love and hope, in that they are endowed by God intangibly; whereas the works of the law are mostly physical in nature; also the expression, fruit or evidence of the spiritual tends to be physical in nature.  (e.g. for God so loved (spiritual)… that he gave (tangibly)…).  Were it not for the practical evidence, I being carnal, would not perceive the purely spiritual. This is what James means.  And God also because he asks to see the practical evidence.

So then, at the start of a given day, what does it mean to say we have faith, love or hope?  
“I LOVE, HOPE, and HAVE FAITH…”  Ok.  Now what?  What does it mean? How are these demonstrated towards God, self and man?  It's not enough to say it James says; demonstrate it or don't bother saying it.  

That, is the question, or else these become mere fancy and “spiritual” words far out of our grasp, and of no practical benefits to anyone including God.  The scriptures give practical examples to define these spiritual words and so guide us, so why should we be afraid to agree with scripture?

Why did Jesus hold some accountable for lack of faith, if it is purely God's part, and not ours?

You may recall the story of the blind man in John 9.  

As Jesus was walking along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. 2 “Teacher,” his disciples asked him, “why was this man born blind? Was it a result of his own sins or those of his parents?”
3 “It was not because of his sins or his parents' sins,” Jesus answered. “He was born blind so the power of God could be seen in him. 4 All of us must quickly carry out the tasks assigned us by the one who sent me, because there is little time left before the night falls and all work comes to an end. 5 But while I am still here in the world, I am the light of the world.”
6 Then he spit on the ground, made mud with the saliva, and smoothed the mud over the blind man's eyes. 7 He told him, “Go and wash in the pool of Siloam” (Siloam means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came back seeing!

Jesus didn't attribute this man's condition to any sin or fault, so his problem could not have been due to lack of faith as without faith we cannot please God.  Yet, he blamed others for their lack of faith while praising others for their exceptional faith.

If faith is purely spiritual and so, controlled by God only, then what was the point of Jesus rebuking or praising anyone for what was beyond them?     Put another way, does God blame us for a typical cloudy day, or praise us for tonight's harvest moon?  No.  This is because such things are generally beyond our control.  So we give thanks to God or else pray him for more favorable climate.

But while God does not command us to make the sun shine, he commands us to love, have faith, courage and such.  Why?  Because we can (having deposited his spirit in us beforehand), and we have our part to play even to the abounding of grace.  We are furthermore commanded to have the mind of Christ, … our part to do.

He's given us of his spirit through Jesus, and has expectations of us also.  Since it is willful, I call it works in the sense that the Apostle James does, to mean a definition of faith.  This does not deny God's grace or claim our righteousness apart from Christ.  But I am also saying that God has it so we have a part in the process or else should all be saved or all condemned without further deliberations.  

King David could encourage himself in God when he was downcast because through grace 1) He knew God is  2)he then could yield his will in spite of his flesh, to hope in God.

It is God alone who gives us of his spirit through Christ, yes?  
He is spirit, we are flesh.  
Faith is spiritual, works are physical.  
And yet, without the exercise of our faith through action, we cannot please him… to which end some did perish.

[Cubes]

Ken,

Just wondering about your response here regarding this hypothetical situation:

A man acknowledges that the Lord, he is God.
He believes and “accepts” Jesus as Lord as you say, realizing that he is saved by grace through faith.
From then on, he lives his life outside of the Apostles James' concept of faith. If the hungry comes to his door, he is simply content to assure them of his fervent prayers and has one good reason or another why he can't feed them. He fully believes in Jesus though as having died for his sins. He may or may not have been baptised.

What, according to Jesus and Paul, is to be the reasonable expectation of this man when Jesus returns?

Compare him to the man who is also saved by grace through faith similarly, but follows through with James' recommendation? Has he not through his actions demonstrated both love and faith and Jesus as Lord, abiding in his word?

[kenrch]

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 07 2006,06:00)

Ken, Just wondering about your response here regarding this hypothetical situation: A man acknowledges that the Lord, he is God. He believes and “accepts” Jesus as Lord as you say, realizing that he is saved by grace through faith. From then on, he lives his life outside of the Apostles James' concept of faith.  If the hungry comes to his door, he is simply content to assure them of his fervent prayers and has one good reason or another why he can't feed them.  He fully believes in Jesus though as having died for his sins.  He may or may not have been baptised. What, according to Jesus and Paul, is to be the reasonable expectation of this man when Jesus returns?   Compare him to the man who is also saved by grace through faith similarly, but follows through with James' recommendation?  Has he not through his actions demonstrated both love and faith and Jesus as Lord, abiding in his word?

Leo,
“A man acknowledges that the Lord, he is God.
He believes and “accepts” Jesus as Lord as you say, realizing that he is saved by grace through faith.”

Now stop, the man is saved no works as yet he has'nt had a chance to do any works. The man dies. IS THE MAN SAVED?

*You must answer this question. Because I say the man is saved. But if I understand you are saying no the man is not saved because he had no works. Faith + works*

Now let me answer all the rest of yur question with this statement that I have been saying since we started this conversation.

If the man supposedly has faith but does no works then as James and Paul say his faith is dead, in fact he never had faith and knew not Jesus or decided not to follow Jesus. So yes his faith is dead. But you are not saved just because you do good works and have no faith.

James and Paul are on the same page but Paul is saying what I'm saying it is not the works that saves you. James is saying “once you are saved” (through faith, for we are not justified by works, that any one should boast) and have no works then your faith is dead.

*”But we must Act/respond and that is faith. And without that response, there is no faith, which is why faith without (works) response is dead”*.

Aren't you saying that when you “Act/respond” to the calling of God that is works?

I said that the works James is speaking of is physical action:

“When James speaks of works he is speaking of just that works. You show your love by works. You GIVE to charity. You VISIT the elderly and those in prison. Works involves “ACTION”! You can't count praying about the sick as works of love and this is what James is speaking of.”

HERE JAMES EXPLAINS WHAT WORKS ARE.

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,

“Jam 2:16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself”.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.

Paul said:
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith APART from the “WORKS” of the law.

Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

You agree that love is the fulfillment of the law. Paul says we are “justified by faith” (Now read it with your own eyes) APART FROM WORKS. Justified by faith not by works.

2Ti 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
What are the works that James is speaking of above? Is it not a act of love?

Is James saying Paul is wrong? No! Because if you are saved through faith then the works will follow. If you say you are saved (through faith) but do nothing (as James is saying) then your faith is dead, it is as if you never had faith and were never saved.
Once you are saved through faith then you will do good works but you are NOT saved “because you do good works”.

**Either the bible speaks as one OR it as the heathen says “that the bible contradicts itself”!***

Does the bible contrict itself, Leo? Are Paul and James at odds with other? Paul says through faith and not works. James says that without works your faith is dead.

Notice how Paul agrees with James:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? GOD FORBID: nay, we establish the law.

Edited by kenrch on Oct. 06 2006,14:58

I have made it as simple as I know how. Sultan seems to understand what I'm saying.

Read his post may be you will understand it better coming from him:

I believe the real issue here is not whether it's faith and works, but which comes first. The Bible teaches that it requires faith to be saved, but true faith will produce the works of God (i.e. Repentance,baptism). If I truely receive the Word of God, I will by the grace of God be granted repentance. Then there will be the transfer of my faith from sin to The crucified Lord. After that comes baptism. By the way Salvation is of the Lord. Any works of God that we demonstrate is a manifestation of the Grace of God, and not of ourselves.

There is nothing more to be said. If you do not understand then perhaps someone else other than Sultan and myself could explain it better.

Peace and blessings,

Kenrch

[Cubes]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 07 2006,19:00)

Now stop, the man is saved no works as yet he has'nt had a chance to do any works.  The man dies.  IS THE MAN SAVED? *You must answer this question.  Because I say the man is saved.

JUST SOME POINTS TO CLARIFY:

2Cr 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Without God, none of us would be here. So most definitely, I depend on Christ in all things and cannot do without God's grace. When I speak about “our part,” it is in context of being sustained by the power of God in all things.

If the guy has had no chance to serve GOD, I ALSO AGREE he is saved. No one disputes that.

You said:

Quote

If the man supposedly has faith but does no works then as James and Paul say his faith is dead, in fact he never had faith and knew not Jesus or decided not to follow Jesus. So yes his faith is dead.

And if your faith is dead, then how does that relate to your salvation?

Quote

But you are not saved just because you do good works and have no faith.

No one has ever said that on the board to my knowledge. And I don't believe I did either.

Quote

*You must answer this question. … But if I understand you are saying no the man is not saved because he had no works. Faith + works*

Not that he had no chance, but that he confessed Jesus as Lord without actually submitting to Jesus as Lord though he had opportunity.

You attribute the following to me:

Faith wrote:

Correction. I am saying: FAITH = RIGHTEOUS, ACCEPTABLE WORKS without which there is NO faith, as defined in various parts of scripture.

Please really read what Paul is saying here regarding faith and grace!

Romans 12:Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Blessings to you in Christ Jesus.

[NickHassan]

Yes cubes,
Man claims to know his own heart but it is a deceitful thing.

Jer 17
” 9The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? “

The works of the Old Law cannot change the nature of the heart which but be transformed by renewal according to the Spirit-grace.

Tit 3
” 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;”

We must stop trying to save ourselves as those that do show they have no faith in the work of Jesus and are lost.

Mk 8
“For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.”

God does not have at His disposal vessels that are otherwise engaged in their own works. It is not what we do but what God does through us that are useful to Him and us.

Heb 4
“10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.”

[Scripture Seeker]

Hi Kenrch,

There is both an Old Law and a New Law.
The old law is the ceremonial law, this is the only law that is rejected.

Paul is the only person to reject works, the ONLY WORKS he rejects are works outside of grace. Do you release EVERYTIME he rejects works he talks of CIRCUMCISION, even when rejecting the Old Ceremonial law he says “all that matters is faith that works BY LOVE”.

Please take the time to thoroughly read the following.  

Rom 3:28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith WITHOUT THE DEEDS OF THE LAW.

I do not have a problem with this verse! I believe we are saved “by faith” but “not by faith alone”.

The “deeds of the law” is talking about the ceremonial law i.e. circumcision for Jews this is clearly shown if you keep reading the next couple of verses. Rom 3:29, 30 and is also shown in the first verse of this same chapter (Rom 3:1)
As well as in Rom 2:25-29 which is leading up to chapter 3 and finishing  of in Rom 4:9-12.

Rom 3:29  Is he the God of the JEWS only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30  Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the CIRCUMCISION BY FAITH, and UNCIRCUMCISION THROUGH FAITH.
Rom 3:1  WHAT ADVANTAGE THEN HATH THE JEW? or what profit is there of CIRCUMCISION?

See the refernces to circumcision. Here are some other examples where people get confussed, now remember what Peter said about Pauls writttings “hard to understand”…

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9  Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10  For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them.

Here are the works that are being rejected…. Again CIRCUMCISION outside of the works of love [GRACE]

Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called UNCIRCUMCISION by that which is called the CIRCUMCISION in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, HAVING NO HOPE, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Eph 2:14  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, AND HATH BROKEN DOWN THE MIDDLE WALL OF PARTITION BETWEEN US;

Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition, THE CEREMONIAL LAW, that made the great feud, and was the badge of the Jews' peculiarity, called the partition-wall by way of allusion to the partition in the temple, WHICH SEPARATED THE COURT OF THE GENTILES FROM THAT INTO WHICH THE JEWS ONLY HAD LIBERTY TO ENTER.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

So we can clearly see that Eph 2:9 is NOT talking about good works.
Eph 2:10  says that we are created unto good works which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them.  But just because one has faith in Jesus doesn’t mean they will walk in them, we have FREE WILL even when we have faith in him. Have you not read how many dreadfull things are done by those who believe in Jesus…WOW will all those people be saved?

Confusion occurs by forgetting about the Jews, Paul never condemns works of love but he clearly condemns “deeds of the law” or “works of the law” the works that Jews TRY TO JUSTIFY THEMSELVES WITHOUT JESUS. These ceremonial laws have been done away with and the JEWS can no longer boost. Paul rejects ceremonial works of the law BECAUSE THESE WORKS REJECT JESUS SACRIFICE.

So when Paul stresses that it is without the works of the law we are justified. Paul is condemning the works of ceremonial laws, NEVER WORKS OF LOVE FROM GRACE.
Paul agrees with James he acknowledges what is important he says it is faith which worketh by love. James says the same, “it is not by faith only”, saying this he acknowledges it is by faith also, but not without works of love.

Gal 5:3  For I testify again to EVERY MAN THAT IS CIRCUMCISED, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4  CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whosoever of you are JUSTIFIED BY THE LAW; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.
Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Not only do we see the Law he speaks of is CIRCUMCISION but he teaches that Love is important to.

Gal 5:6  For in Jesus Christ neither CIRCUMCISION availeth any thing, nor UNCIRCUMCISION; but FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE.

Both faith and Love matter towards our justification.
1Ti 2:15  Yet she shall be SAVED through child bearing; IF SHE CONTINUE in FAITH AND LOVE and sanctification with sobriety.

So Paul teaches that the old ceremonial Law of CIRCUMCISION doesn’t matter but faith which worketh in Love does matter.
There is not one scripture that rejects the new law of Love, Paul even teaches that there is no Law AGAINST LOVE.

The teaching of Justification by faith Alone has three massive problems
1: Scripture *explicitly* rejects the idea of faith alone, even Paul rejects this idea.
2: The grace of hope comes before faith
3: Scriptures teaches not only by Paul but by every other person that talks of Justification that we are justified by works.

I am not talking about works outside of grace THESE WORKS ARE USELESS because they are not done in the fruit of Love.

1Co 13:3  And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity [LOVE], it profiteth me nothing.

So works have to be done in grace *Love* for them to matter to God.
These are the works we are Justified by.

I have already shown that the only works that are rejected are the ceremonial laws.
Now could you please explain all of the following scriptures it you still bebieve we are justified by faith alone.

*****PAUL****** SPEAKING by the power of the Holy Spirit
Rom 2:5  But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God:
Rom 2:6  WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.

Paul Teaches we are Justified by the NEW LAW, which is LOVE. Here is ***THE PROOF***
Rom 2:13  For not the hearers of the law are just before God: BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

So unless you believe that Paul is a False teacher you have to believe we are Justified by Faith and Love that worketh.

Phi 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING.
Phi 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will AND TO DO OF HIS GOOD PLEASURE.

1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy,
and understand ALL mysteries,
and ALL knowledge;
AND though I have ALL [G3956] FAITH,
so THAT I COULD REMOVE MOUNTAINS,
AND HAVE NOT CHARITY, I AM NOTHING.

2Co 5:10  FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; that every one may receive the things done in his body, ACCORDING TO THAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OR BAD.

PLEASE don’t get confused about *circumcision* the OLD law that Paul rejects.

Rom 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? FOR WE SHALL ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST.

Rev 3:13  HE THAT HATH AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES.
Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15  I KN
OW THY WORKS, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16  So then BECAUSE THOU ART LUKEWARM, and neither cold nor hot, I WILL SPUE THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH.

Jesus also indicates that these people are from the Church and are in him. But says he will spue them out, NOT BECAUSE OF THERE LACK OF FAITH but because of there lack of WORKS.

Jam 2:21  Was not Abraham our father JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jam 2:25  Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Mat 12:36  But I say unto you, THAT EVERY IDLE WORD THAT MEN SHALL SPEAK, THEY SHALL RENDER AN ACCOUNT FOR IT IN THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.
Mat 12:37  For BY THY WORDS THOU SHALT BE JUSTIFIED, and BY THY WORDS THOU SHALT BE CONDEMNED.

The words we are justified by are the words that come from the heart, compare above and below.
Mat 15:18  But those things which PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH COME FORTH FROM THE HEART; and they defile the man.

Mat 5:22  But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in DANGER OF THE JUDGMENT…… And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, SHALL BE IN DANGER OF HELL FIRE.

Our Lord has taught us NOT TO MARVEL at the good works, please stop

Joh 5:27  And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28  MARVEL NOT AT THIS: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, unto THE RESURRECTION OF LIFE; and they that have done evil, UNTO THE RESURRECTION OF DAMNATION.

These are works and unless we do them no amount of faith will save us. Because we are Justified by the fruits and not just the one fruit of faith.

Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I WILL GIVE UNTO EVERY ONE OF YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR WORKS.

Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

All the scriptures that show we are justified by Faith are true just as all the scriptures that show we are Justified by works are true. The word is truth.

Rev 20:13  And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: AND THEY WERE JUDGED EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

Rev 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, TO GIVE EVERY MAN ACCORDING AS HIS WORK SHALL BE.

Indeed what does Faith profit a man without works…..

Jam 2:14  WHAT DOTH IT PROFIT, my brethren, though a man SAY HE HATH FAITH, AND HAVE NOT WORKS? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM?
Jam 2:15  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; WHAT DOTH IT PROFIT?
Jam 2:17  Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, BEING ALONE.

How can anyone teach we are justified by faith alone, when faith is even dead when its alone??

Even Devils believe James again teaches we need works *as well*

Jam 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead?

You need the works of Love and there is no law against them because they come from the Holy Spirit, from GRACE ALONE.

Gal 5:22  BUT THE FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is LOVE, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH,
Gal 5:23  Meekness, temperance: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.

There is no law against Love so no scriptures can condemn it because it is a fruit of the spirit. It is not our works but the works the spirit does in us.
WHY are you making Faith greater than Love? Both are fruits of the spirit as above and Love is greater below. NOTE: hope is not listed as a fruit because it brings forth the fruit.

1Co 13:13  And now abideth FAITH, HOPE, CHARITY, these three; BUT THE GREATEST of these IS CHARITY [LOVE].

Love doesn’t come from faith it comes from Hope.
Eph 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, EVEN AS YE ARE CALLED IN ONE HOPE OF YOUR CALLING;

Rom 5:5  And HOPE maketh not ashamed; because the LOVE of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Col 1:5  For the HOPE which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6  Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth FORTH FRUIT, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, AND KNEW THE GRACE of God in truth:

Hope comes *before* faith, you first need hope to have faith. Paul teaches that it is by Hope we are saved and that it is Hope that bring forth the fruits which include BOTH faith AND Love.  

Rom 8:23  And not only it, but ourselves also, WHO HAVE THE FIRSTFRUITS OF THE SPIRIT: even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption of the sons of God, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24  For we are SAVED BY HOPE. But HOPE that is seen is not HOPE. For what a man seeth, why doth he HOPE for?

Jesus judges us by our works, from the Fruits of the spirit NOT JUST ONE FRUIT.

Mat 7:20  Wherefore BY THEIR FRUITS ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21  NOT EVERY ONE THAT SAITH UNTO ME, LORD, LORD, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, LORD, LORD, HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? and IN THY NAME have CAST OUT DEVILS? and IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Even though they have faith they are damned because….

Jam 2:24  Ye see then how that BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

By WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED and not by faith ****only/alone****.
Sorry Kenrch I have to disagree I can not teach we are Justified by “Faith alone” when scripture explicitly rejects this idea as a false one at the same time as saying we are Justified by works.

Blessings in the name of Jesus

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
Can man save himself?
Can our works justify us before God?
Can a branch produce good fruit from outside of the vine?
No, not now for us.
We should not follow Rehab.
All men have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
Judgement is now according to obedience to the message of God given by the Son to be born again.
The way of salvation is in the Son by being reborn into that Son by repentance, faith and true baptism by our choice in the name of Jesus Christ.
The rest is relatively incidental for us as the work is done by God.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
Men constantly seek to justify themselves before God.

Luke 10:29
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God

But scriptures teach it is impossible.

Mk 8
35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Justification is only found in Jesus

Isaiah 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Rom 3
” 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. “

Faith only justifies us as we follow it and obey the demands of God that faith reveals.

You must be born again.

[kenrch]

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 07 2006,17:19)

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 07 2006,19:00) Now stop, the man is saved no works as yet he has'nt had a chance to do any works.  The man dies.  IS THE MAN SAVED? *You must answer this question.  Because I say the man is saved.   JUST SOME POINTS TO CLARIFY: 2Cr 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you. Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. Without God, none of us would be here.  So most definitely, I depend on Christ in all things and cannot do without God's grace.  When I speak about “our part,” it is in context of being sustained by the power of God in all things. If the guy has had no chance to serve GOD, I ALSO AGREE he is saved.  No one disputes that.   You said: Quote If the man supposedly has faith but does no works then as James and Paul say his faith is dead, in fact he never had faith and knew not Jesus or decided not to follow Jesus.  So yes his faith is dead.   And if your faith is dead, then how does that relate to your salvation? Quote But you are not saved just because you do good works and have no faith. No one has ever said that on the board to my knowledge.  And I don't believe I did either. Quote *You must answer this question.  … But if I understand you are saying no the man is not saved because he had no works.  Faith + works* Not that he had no chance, but that he confessed Jesus as Lord without actually submitting to Jesus as Lord though he had opportunity. You attribute the following to me: Faith wrote: Correction.  I am saying: FAITH = RIGHTEOUS, ACCEPTABLE WORKS without which there is NO faith, as defined in various parts of scripture. Please really read what Paul is saying here regarding faith and grace! Romans 12:Rom 12:1   I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.   Rom 12:2   And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.   Rom 12:3   For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.   Blessings to you in Christ Jesus.

Yes Leo lets clarify things.

“If the guy has had no chance to serve GOD, I ALSO AGREE he is saved. “No one disputes that”.

Excuse me, This whole subject is saved through faith alone or faith + works.

So if you agree that he is saved then it is faith that saves him. He had NO WORKS and you admit he is saved. So what is your argrument? I don't understand what is the problem. Everyone agrees that faith saved the person BEFORE he did works. I have shown where Paul and James agree that faith saves then and only then do the works come. Instead of accepting the truth that you yourself agree with, you wish to persue useless bickering about things a babe in Christ knows.

Now accept it or don't it's up to your mentor and then you.

I'm through with the childish quarrelling over the elementary principals of the gospel.

Heb 6:1 Wherefore leaving the doctrine of the first principles of Christ, let us press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

No leo you are not a babe but why do you act as if you want to be one.
These thing are not hard to understand if your heart is not hard.

Let the Lord bless you, you know He wants too!

Kenrch

[Cubes]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 08 2006,06:02)

Yes Leo lets clarify things. …  Instead of accepting the truth that you yourself agree with, you wish to persue useless bickering about things a babe in Christ knows.

[kenrch]

Cubes,

Is Faith First?
Is works second?
So what is your quarrel, besides you are wrong. It obvious according to scripture that you are wrong. You yourself has said so.

So I don't get it! If you want to continue to quarrel over elementary things then have it your way but without me.

I cannot believe that you think you are correct in saying that it takes Faith + works for salvation. God's love is unconditional. God loves you if you do works or not, Right? He loved you when you were drowning in your sins without any works at all! But you had to have faith while drowning in your sins no works were necessary.

Cubes if it is important that you have the last word then so be it. Does that change the ink on the paper?

NO!

I H L,

Kenrch

[Cubes]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 11 2006,07:45)

Cubes, Is Faith First? Is works second? So what is your quarrel, besides you are wrong.  It obvious according to scripture that you are wrong.  You yourself has said so. So I don't get it!  If you want to continue to quarrel over elementary things then have it your way but without me. I cannot believe that you think you are correct in saying that it takes Faith + works for salvation.  God's love is unconditional.  God loves you if you do works or not, Right?  He loved you when you were drowning in your sins without any works at all!  But you had to have faith while drowning in your sins no works were necessary. Cubes if it is important that you have the last word then so be it.  Does that change the ink on the paper? NO! I H L, Kenrch

Hi Ken,

I'm afraid you seem to see what you want to see in my posts.

1. I am not quarreling as I am not upset.
2. I have never denied that we are saved by GRACE thru FAITH.
3. I have said that Faith, in my understanding is revealed or demonstrated through righteous acceptable Works, e.g. the ACTS of the apostles would rightly demonstrate faith.

So No, it does not take FAITH PLUS WORKS. It takes GRACE THRU' Faith.

It is also true that I believe that faith is manifested through righteous deeds.

So it would be more correct to say that: Saved by the grace of God through faith which is belief in counting God as present and faithful, which is love, which is obedience, which is righteous acts… or else what does it mean to say one has faith?

[Cubes]

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 10 2006,02:28)

Thus the grace of God for me has always been visible.  We can end the conversation there …  But the conversation does not end there!  God didn't end it there:  before, during and after the law.  If the conversation ended there, then there should have been no difference between he who fears God and he who does not in terms of salvation.  And basically all that would be expected of ANYONE is “BELIEF,” and after that, no other expectation.  But we know this is not so.  James says that the demons believe and tremble!  Many have believed that did perish.

Let's see:  As far as I can see, and I have said nothing differently from the start:  Faith knows that God is, and that he is faithful.  Faith also on the basis of that knowing, acts accordingly!  It is an artificial separation to attempt to separate the two; either part results in lack of faith.

Most of these people, in Hebrews 11, if not all, acted in accordance with their profession of faith.  It doesn't mean they didn't have their moments but by and large, they exercised and demonstrated what it meant to them to have faith in God!  

Hbr 11:3   Through faith we UNDERSTAND that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.  
Hbr 11:4   By faith Abel OFFERED unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, BY WHICH HE OBTAINED WITNESS THAT HE WAS RIGHTEOUS, GOD TESTIFYING OF HIS GIFTS: AND BY IT HE BEING DEAD YET SPEAKETH.
Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that HE PLEASED GOD.

<font color=teal
Jhn 8:29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I DO ALWAYS THOSE THINGS THAT PLEASE him.

HEBREWS 11 Continued

Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM.
Hbr 11:7 BY FAITH Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, MOVED with fear, PREPARED an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
Hbr 11:8 BY FAITH ABRAHAM, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, OBEYED; and HE WENT OUT, not knowing whither he went.
Hbr 11:9 By faith he SOJOURNED in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, DWELLING in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Hbr 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker [is] God.
Hbr 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, BECAUSE SHE JUDGED HIM FAITHFUL who had promised.
Hbr 11:12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, [so many] as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
Hbr 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of [them], and embraced [them], and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Hbr 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
Hbr 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Hbr 11:17 BY FAITH ABRAHAM, when he was tried, OFFERED up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten [son],
Hbr 11:18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Hbr 11:20 BY FAITH Isaac BLESSED Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
Hbr 11:21 BY FAITH Jacob, when he was a dying, BLESSED both the sons of Joseph; and WORSHIPPED, [leaning] upon the top of his staff.
Hbr 11:22 By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
Hbr 11:23 BY FAITH MOSES, when he was born, WAS HID THREE MONTHS OF HIS PARENTS, because they saw [he was] a proper child; and THEY WERE NOT AFRAID of the king's commandment.
Hbr 11:24 BY FAITH MOSES, when he was come to years, REFUSED to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
Hbr 11:25 CHOOSING RATHER TO SUFFER affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
Hbr 11:26 ESTEEMING the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
Hbr 11:27 By faith he FORSOOK Egypt, NOT FEARING the wrath of the king: for he ENDURED, AS SEEING HIM who is invisible.
Hbr 11:28 THROUGH FAITH HE KEPT the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Hbr 11:29 BY FAITH THEY PASSED THROUGH the Red sea as by dry [land]: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
Hbr 11:30 BY FAITH the walls of Jericho fell down, after THEY WERE COMPASSED about seven days.
Hbr 11:31 BY FAITH THE HARLOT RAHAB perished not with them that believed not, when she had RECEIVED THE SPIES with peace.
Hbr 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and [of] Barak, and [of] Samson, and [of] Jephthae; [of] David also, and Samuel, and [of] the prophets:
Hbr 11:33 Who THROUGH FAITH SUBDUED kingdoms, WROUGHT righteousness, OBTAINED promises, STOPPED the mouths of lions,
Hbr 11:34 QUENCHED the violence of fire, ESCAPED the edge of the sword, out of weakness were MADE STRONG, waxed VALIANT in fight, TURNED TO FLIGHT the armies of the aliens.
Hbr 11:35 Women RECEIVED their dead raised to life again: and others were TORTURED, NOT ACCEPTING DELIVERANCE; that they might obtain a better resurrection:
Hbr 11:36 And others had trial of [cruel] mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
Hbr 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
Hbr 11:38 (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and [in] mountains, and [in] dens and caves of the earth.
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[NickHassan]

Hi Cubes,
It is interesting that Rahab is called a harlot but because of her act of faith and her love shown to God by her protection of the godly spies God ignores her life of sin and declares her righteous in his eyes. Such would not correspond with the judgements of men who would despise harlots and quickly judge them as sinners.

It fits with verses such as these.

Jn 16
” 7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. “

and Matt 25
” 34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. “

God's view is not man's.

[Cubes]

Hi Nick,

I agree.

God's ways are not our ways and Jesus, if we look to him and the examples he gave us, is able to show us how to reconcile our hearts to the serving of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
You wrote.
“I’ve often thought, as Fulton Sheen wrote, that it is a terrible moment of loneliness. You have no advocates, you are there alone standing before God — and a terror will rip your soul like nothing you can imagine. But I really think that those in the pro-life movement will not be alone. I think there’ll be a chorus of voices that have never been heard in this world but are heard beautifully and clearly in the next world — and they will plead for everyone who has been in this movement. They will say to God, ‘Spare him, because he loved us,” — and God will look at you and say not, ‘Did you succeed?’ but ‘Did you try?’” Congressman Henry Hyde .”

So doing political works is our hope of salvation?
That is another gospel.

We do indeed have an advocate.

1Jn 2
“1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”

Now is the time for terror of God while we still have the opportunity to avoid the condemnation of God and to be reborn to a living and eternal hope.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
You say
“We are saved by faith!  “BUT we have” to be baptized in water?  If we are saved then aren't we born again?  That which is born of flesh is flesh that which is born of water is water.”

We have to be clothed in Christ and that comes through repentance and true water baptism in the name of Yashua.

Gal 3
” 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”

We do not want to among those at the wedding feast found to be not wearing the correct garments.

Matt 22
“11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
YouWhat does it profit a man to say he has faith alone without works of love?

“Let’s put Love back in its rightful place, above Faith where it belongs!
Love + Faith = Justification

Justification = the free gift of SALVATION say.”

Salvation is a free gift.
We cannot save ourselves or earn our own justification through any of our works.
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.

We are justified by the forgiveness of our sins which are washed away by the sprinkling of the blood of the Lamb by God in response to our pleas shown in submission to His demand for our water baptism.

Those who love God obey Him.

Jn 5
“33Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

35He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.

36But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

37And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

39Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

40And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

41I receive not honour from men.

42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you. “

Life is short.
We must respond.
We must be reborn.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 12 2006,02:58)

Hi kenrch, You say “We are saved by faith!  “BUT we have” to be baptized in water?  If we are saved then aren't we born again?  That which is born of flesh is flesh that which is born of water is water.” We have to be clothed in Christ and that comes through repentance and true water baptism in the name of Yashua. Gal 3 ” 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ” We do not want to among those at the wedding feast found to be not wearing the correct garments. Matt 22 “11And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Nick I sure don't remember saying that water baptism saves. I may have said that water baptism “follows Faith” but not that water baptism saves. You of all people should know where I stand on that. Faith saves water is symbolic like the bread and wine. Remember?

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