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Brothers and Sisters,
Abraham believed. That was accounted unto him as faith. Faith is not works and love is not works.
The fear of God is the begining of wisdom. And if you do not have that fear, if you do not have faith, you will not be saved. The love of God brings us to him. And it is our faith in him that saves us. Is there love involved, how can the creation deny the creator? I believe that if you love God, when God calls your name, you will hear him and follow unto salvation.
Faith can be without love. Many in the days of Abraham took animals to the alter for the sacrifice for their sins, and most ended up in hell. The reason being that they were not truely repentant in their hearts for their sins. They did not love God with all their hearts, minds and souls. For this reason, they were not seen as righteous. Abraham was truely repentant when the sacrifice was taken and it was because he loved God.
The works would have been in vain if not the heart was first righteous.
Hi H,
You say
Abraham believed. That was accounted unto him as faith.”Not quite.
It was reckoned to him as righteousness.Rom 4.9
“Romans 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.”Hi Ken,
Cubes what do we do to receive Christ.
Repent and believe that he is Messiah, the son of God. Without this, it isn't happening…. without our forgiving others as we've been forgiven, it isn't happening…How can you love Christ if you don't know Christ?
Does merely saying “I know him” mean that I do?1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
Phl 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
ACTIVE PROCESS, EXERTING OURSELVES TOWARDS THAT DESIRE.1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
And yet did many not see him with their eyes and admire the miracles he performed?How do we receive grace?
Thru' godly response also known as faith. Or else how do we know that we have faith –compared to the world — if it is just a matter of hearing?
We hear many things.Rom 10:14 How then shall they CALL on him in whom they have not BELIEVED? and how shall they BELIEVE in him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without a preacher?
Once you accept Christ then you will love. You have no love unless you have Christ. It's that simple!
This is true but you said, “once you ACCEPT Christ…” That acceptance, my brother, is our part to do, without which, the call falls on deaf ears and to to such a person Christ's death and resurrection is without effect.
What good is water baptism before you accept Christ?
None.
And what good is saying that we ACCEPT Jesus if we fail to RESPOND to his voice?
The chicken or the egg, huh? It's intertwined and any attempt to separate either is no good.And the same here what good is love unless you accept Christ?
I dare say you can't love as Jesus loves without the Spirit of God, which alone bears our resemblance to Christ.
Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
And this love is very much active in works, whether it be through what is done or not done.What does it take to accept Christ?
It takes the active process of repentance and believing that Christ is Lord, the son of God as written of him. And from there, God's spirit moves us to want to follow after him and serve him as did his apostles, for the glory of God.
We will see.If you cannot distinquish the difference between faith and righteousness, the truth is not in you. It was accounted to Abraham because his heart was righteous in the sight of God. It is for this reason those who died prior to the resurrection and died believing in the promise of the coming of salvation, and were steadfast in repentance and love for God, were seen as righteous in the eyes of God. They were known in scripture as the righteous dead.
So how can you seperate faith from rightousness?
Hi H,
Can you not accept correction from scripture itself?
Faith is not righteousness just as love is not joy.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 06 2006,02:25) Hi Cubes,
Yes faith is by grace.
Ephesians 2:8
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:”and by faith we have access to grace
Romans 5:2
“By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”Doubt limits faith.
Jas 1
“6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,”
Faith, which is given us, is as the trunk of the tree and is damaged by doubt, such that the sap of grace cannot flow into it and through it to produce fruit.
Yes, Nick. A helpful emphasis.And here's this one:
Hbr 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
And yes, even our faith and ability to do anything is by the grace of God that sustains us in Christ jesus.
Hi Nick
I am confused here.
Further clarification is needed as to why you differentiate b/n faith and righteousness. Please share some examples as with the tree/sap illustration if possible.True faith, is that which is accounted unto righteousness. How is this achieved? By works that come from a man who loves God with his heart, mind and soul?
What good is faith without love? What good is works without love? Is not one of the ten commandments to love the Lord thy God with all of thy heart, mind and soul?
If you think that faith and righteousness do not go hand in hand, then how can you make claim to salvation? How does a man become righteous in the eyes of God? By faith. If a man is not repentant in his heart, if his heart is not right, if he is not truely sorry for his sins, how then will he be saved? You must believe with all of your heart. Salvation is a matter of the heart.
Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 05 2006,23:07) Hi Nick I am confused here.
Further clarification is needed as to why you differentiate b/n faith and righteousness. Please share some examples as with the tree/sap illustration if possible.
Hi cubes,
God accredited to Abraham righteousness because he showed faith.Abraham heard the words of God, recognised them as being from God and obeyed them and thus he was forgiven and the inside of his cup cleansed just as the word of God did for the disciples.
Jn 15
“3Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”Thus Abraham lives.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Oct. 06 2006,03:10) Brothers and Sisters, …Faith is not works and love is not works.
Hi H,Could you please expound on these?
And what is “works” then?
Dear Cubes,
Do you remember the fig tree that our Lord came upon that did not bear fruit? What benefit is a man if he enters into the kingdom of God bearing no fruit? How is it that fruit comes about if not by works.
What did Jesus say?
Matt. 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 05 2006,21:04) Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 05 2006,18:44) The days of Noah are a prime example of the situation regarding grace and faith. Knowing our God, we must believe that he sent out a warning (grace) for repentence to all beforehand, as evidenced by the following verse. 2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
What happened was that with the exception of Noah and his family, everyone else ignored this grace. They actually did NOTHING about their situation for which the grace of God came.
THIS WAS BEFORE THE INSTITUTION OF THE LAW.
And it is going to be that way again, AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH….It would have required a response to act or change in a certain manner expected by God (faith), but they couldn't be bothered, so they remained as they were. Not so with Noah, he even went on to follow God's instructions to build the Ark and to save himself with his household. Thus, faith involves an acceptable works/response and it is not a matter of just taking in of information.
Cubes,
YES. You said it yourself. ACCEPT, BELIEVE on Jesus.
So you have to have works in order to be saved?And faith itself is works?
You don't think ACCEPT & BELIEVE are passive, dead styrofoam sort of things, do you?
If you hear the warning of a fire alarm. I pray you would act on faith and so get up and do what is required, and not just ignore it knowingly. The response to the alarm is faith. To not respond and so much as investigate would be lack of faith.Yet the word says we are not saved by works.
Eph 2:8 For BY GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.I do not deny that we are saved by grace. I said there was no dispute there as God is before all. Had he not, we would not. But we are not the only people who have observed the presence of God for it is indeed evident to all creation that GOD IS. That has not been enough to save anyone whenever he called someone. Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar both knew that God is.Following this awareness of God should follow a godly, active response unto the faithfulness of God. That in my understanding, is faith.
No response to God, no salvation.We are saved by grace because while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. It isn't because we were blameless or perfect. But what good is his death to one who would not respond? This is why it is grace through faith.
Now lets see who am I going to believe?
We shall both believe God. But perhaps there is need for us all to help one another understand. As usual I view it as working together, for those who want to.What do we do to receive grace?
We ACKNOWLEDGE and RESPOND accordingly because we count he who promised as faithful. What we ought not to do is to let it fall on deaf ears and dead hearts. That would be lack of faith. Think about the various people that Jesus commended for having faith and compare their actions to those he said didn't have faith, such as those among whom he could do no miracles due to their disbelief.Cubes were you around in the days of Noah? LOL! It seems that your answers always if possible will mention Noah.
LOL.
And here I thought you mentioned Noah the most! Hey, he was saved, wasn't he? We're in good company if we should be as he.
Cubes are you just trying to be funny?
You believe the accepting of Christ as works? Aren't you being a little obstinate?All things follow faith except accepting Christ as your Lord and Saviour which is of the heart.
When James speaks of works he is speaking of just that works. You show your love by works. You GIVE to charity. You VISIT the elderly and those in prison. Works involves “ACTION”! You can't count praying about the sick as works of love and this is what James is speaking of.
If you are out and about and the Spirit wants you to witness to a person and you don't then you have no works with your faith and therefore your faith is dead.
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith APART from the works of the law.
I have heard it over and over Love fulfills the law. Love your neighbour is one of the Ten Commandment LAW. LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and soul.
Does Faith do away with the law (LOVE).
Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.
Through faith we establish LOVE.
Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 06 2006,05:55) Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 05 2006,21:04) Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 05 2006,18:44) The days of Noah are a prime example of the situation regarding grace and faith. Knowing our God, we must believe that he sent out a warning (grace) for repentence to all beforehand, as evidenced by the following verse. 2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
What happened was that with the exception of Noah and his family, everyone else ignored this grace. They actually did NOTHING about their situation for which the grace of God came.
THIS WAS BEFORE THE INSTITUTION OF THE LAW.
And it is going to be that way again, AS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH….It would have required a response to act or change in a certain manner expected by God (faith), but they couldn't be bothered, so they remained as they were. Not so with Noah, he even went on to follow God's instructions to build the Ark and to save himself with his household. Thus, faith involves an acceptable works/response and it is not a matter of just taking in of information.
Cubes,
So you have to have works in order to be saved?YES. You said it yourself. ACCEPT, BELIEVE on Jesus.
And faith itself is works?
You don't think ACCEPT & BELIEVE are passive, dead styrofoam sort of things, do you?
If you hear the warning of a fire alarm. I pray you would act on faith and so get up and do what is required, and not just ignore it knowingly. The response to the alarm is faith. To not respond and so much as investigate would be lack of faith.Yet the word says we are not saved by works.
Eph 2:8 For BY GRACE are ye saved THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.I do not deny that we are saved by grace. I said there was no dispute there as God is before all. Had he not, we would not. But we are not the only people who have observed the presence of God for it is indeed evident to all creation that GOD IS. That has not been enough to save anyone whenever he called someone. Pharoah and Nebuchadnezzar both knew that God is.
Following this awareness of God should follow a godly, active response unto the faithfulness of God. That in my understanding, is faith.
No response to God, no salvation.We are saved by grace because while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. It isn't because we were blameless or perfect. But what good is his death to one who would not respond? This is why it is grace through faith.
Now lets see who am I going to believe?
We shall both believe God. But perhaps there is need for us all to help one another understand. As usual I view it as working together, for those who want to.What do we do to receive grace?
We ACKNOWLEDGE and RESPOND accordingly because we count he who promised as faithful. What we ought not to do is to let it fall on deaf ears and dead hearts. That would be lack of faith. Think about the various people that Jesus commended for having faith and compare their actions to those he said didn't have faith, such as those among whom he could do no miracles due to their disbelief.
Cubes were you around in the days of Noah? LOL! It seems that your answers always if possible will mention Noah.
LOL. And here I thought you mentioned Noah the most! Hey, he was saved, wasn't he? We're in good company if we should be as he.
Cubes are you just trying to be funny?
You believe the accepting of Christ as works? Aren't you being a little obstinate?All things follow faith except accepting Christ as your Lord and Saviour which is of the heart.
When James speaks of works he is speaking of just that works. You show your love by works. You GIVE to charity. You VISIT the elderly and those in prison. Works involves “ACTION”! You can't count praying about the sick as works of love and this is what James is speaking of.
If you are out and about and the Spirit wants you to witness to a person and you don't then you have no works with your faith and therefore your faith is dead.
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith APART from the works of the law.
I have heard it over and over Love fulfills the law. Love your neighbour is one of the Ten Commandment LAW. LOVE the Lord your God with all your heart and mind and soul.
Does Faith do away with the law (LOVE).
Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.
Through faith we establish LOVE.
Hi Ken,If love fulfills all the law and love is active and demonstrated thru' action, where have I erred?
If faith is the substance or confidence of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen, then why am I wrong to say it is also demonstrated with action?
I mean this not as the tedious works of the law, e.g. doing 1 -100 things perfectly and in order, the same way every time or else… That would be what God sent his son to fulfill on our behalf, and to save us from the failing to get it right.
Still, to say that now means that zero is expected of me towards God I find not to be the case. We still have a choice in the matter and are expected to coorperate with God, and that entails some effort/action/work on our part.
Thus, the substance and evidence in faith are not nouns but verbs. Or else how are we to know that God loves us or that we love and have faith in him, if such things are not demonstrable with action and evidence?
BY THIS… we know
1Jo 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
John 3:16 For God so LOVED the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son, that whoever BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned; but he who DOES NOT BELIEVE is condemned already, because HE HAS NOT BELIEVED in the name of the only begotten Son of God.Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
God causes his sun to shine daily whether or not I have faith, the earth too rotates and he sustains his universe without our slightest contribution. We have nothing that has not first been given to us, including faith. Still, I say, faith – unlike the planets suspended in the universe– is a WILLFUL exercise. Were it not so, all people in Israel would have been understood to have faith and be healed by Jesus. But as it was, some had eyes but did not see, and some had ears but failed to hear because willfully, they chose not to.
This, Ken, is what I mean by attributing “work” to faith and it is the sense in which I understand the apostle James.
Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 06 2006,14:15) Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. God causes his sun to shine daily whether or not I have faith, the earth too rotates and he sustains his universe without our slightest contribution. We have nothing that has not first been given to us, including faith. Still, I say, faith – unlike the planets suspended in the universe– is a WILLFUL exercise. Were it not so, all people in Israel would have been understood to have faith and be healed by Jesus. But as it was, some had eyes but did not see, and some had ears but failed to hear because willfully, they chose not to.
This, Ken, is what I mean by attributing “work” to faith and it is the sense in which I understand the apostle James.
“No dispute.
The bible also teaches us that God so loved the WORLD that he gave to WHOSOEVER….
And that he gave to everyone, a measure of faith… thus, the call has gone out to the entire world evidenced by the things God has made so that no one is without excuse. In other words, the Father has reached out to everyone to draw them and would not reject whoever comes to him through Christ in earnest.
“But we must Act/respond and that is faith. And without that response, there is no faith, which is why faith without (works) response is dead”.
Aren't you saying that when you “Act/respond” to the calling of God that is works?
I said that the works James is speaking of is physical action:
“When James speaks of works he is speaking of just that works. You show your love by works. You GIVE to charity. You VISIT the elderly and those in prison. Works involves “ACTION”! You can't count praying about the sick as works of love and this is what James is speaking of.”
Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,“Jam 2:16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself”.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man will say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith apart from thy works, and I by my works will show thee my faith.Paul said:
Rom 3:28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith APART from the “WORKS” of the law.Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
You agree that love is the fulfillment of the law. Paul says we are “justified by faith” (Now read it with your own eyes) APART FROM WORKS. Justified by faith not by works.
2Ti 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal,
What are the works that James is speaking of above? Is it not a act of love?Is James saying Paul is wrong? No! Because if you are saved through faith then the works will follow. If you say you are saved (through faith) but do nothing (as James is saying) then your faith is dead, it is as if you never had faith and were never saved.
Once you are saved through faith then you will do good works but you are NOT saved “because you do good works”.
Either the bible speaks as one OR it as the heathen says “that the bible contradicts itself”!Notice how Paul agrees with James:
Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? GOD FORBID: nay, we establish the law.
Dear Kenrch and Cubes,
Now that is what I call walking in the spirit, talking in the spirit. It is by love, the love of Christ that makes it all work. The Father, who loves us, calls us. And by faith we come to him and are saved by believing he sent his Son to die for our sins. We repent and are forgiven our sins. It is at the moment his love, the love that has been apart from us because of sin, comes sweeping into our hearts. And it is this love, this seed that is planted in our hearts. It is the cornerstone that the builders rejected. And as we grow in love and faith, Christ who is in our hearts, grows in us. Not of ourselves least we boast, but Christ who is in us. For if we could not live a life without sin before Christ, and we live a life without sin after being saved, it is only through Christ. This is what the apostles tried to get the believers to understand. We must die to our sinful self and allow Christ to mortify our sinful nature.
And as we grow in Christ, our will is no longer ours, but that of Christs and it is his will to feed the hungry, tend the sick, and clothe the naked. Jesus Christ is the acceptable offering unto God.
I believe the real issue here is not whether it's faith and works, but which comes first. The Bible teaches that it requires faith to be saved, but true faith will produce the works of God (i.e. Repentance,baptism). If I truely receive the Word of God, I will by the grace of God be granted repentance. Then there will be the transfer of my faith from sin to The crucified Lord. After that comes baptism. By the way Salvation is of the Lord. Any works of God that we demonstrate is a manifestation of the Grace of God, and not of ourselves.
Hi Sultan ,
Yes repentance too is grace.Acts 5
” 30The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.”
Acts 11
” 18When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.”2Tim 2
” 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; “
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