Scripture Seeker

[truebelief4u]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2006,09:22)

Hi SS, Scripture says Jesus has a God. Jn 20.17 “..I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God” If Jesus is our God who is His God in an equal trinity?

Just another nail in the coffin of the great “trinity” doctrine….when will most Christians realize that to even ATTEMP to defend this doctrine is ludicrous?

1. The Roman Church itself ADMITS it is a purely fabricated doctrine and that they CHANGED the Bible text (several times) so the text would then support the doctrine.
2. EVERY verse that supports the doctrine is a spurious verse, altered or added by the Roman Church….there is NO authentic Biblical support for a co-equal trinity…PERIOD!
3. The doctrine was initially fabricated due to the argument between Athanasius and Arius in the late 3rd/early 4th century, and even the Roman Church itself waffled on the doctrine for over 1200 years, not formally declaring it “dogma” until the 16th century after the Council of Trent.
4. To go back BEYOND the late 3rd/early 4th century and try to “find” reasons to support the doctrine is ludicrous….NO ONE in the first couple centuries of Christianity, or the 4,000 years of Hebrew history before that EVER understood Yahweh to be some kind of multiple godhead….they understood Him to be ONE BEING….Yahweh…..PERIOD……who acted through His “spirit.” And let us not forget that Jesus (Yashuah) didn't even EXIST until he was conceived BY the action of Yahweh through the spirit and was BORN of Mary.
5. If you want to get real, then you not only have to face the fact that the trinity is a false, fabricated doctrine, you also have to consider that Jesus DID NOT have some sort of magical “pre-existence.” Everyone seems to confuse John 1:1 to mean “Jesus” was present and did the creating…..that is not the case….the SPIRIT did the will of God during creation.
[Example: Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.] Please note that it says “THE SPIRIT OF GOD,” it doesn't say “Jesus.”
What the “pre-existence theorists” are trying to do (and have pretty much succeeded doing) is to go back and re-interpret the verses and substitute Jesus for the “spirit.” When are Protestants ever going to realize (and admit) that the Roman Church CHANGED the @%$#*&^ text to conform to their “new doctrine (trinity)???” Wake up folks….the Roman Church has been playing with the text for over 1600 years….and I'm sorry to say the Protestants have also done some changing around to the text in the last 500 years. There are Bibles now that specifically say “Friday” was the day of crucifixion, which is DEAD WRONG according to the timetable and prophecies….it was Wednesday, not Friday…..but do you think the modern day “church” (Catholic or Protestant) is going to start admitting errors?

[truebelief4u]

There is a reason for my signature…..

“There is an immense difference between one who thinks, and one who merely parrots what they have been told by others. Are you thinking…..or parroting?”

I once was taken in by all these “doctrines,” myself….and then an ex-Catholic Priest asked me why do you “parrot” the inanities of man? Do some thinking and do your own research, and you will find that man has literally destroyed the true Biblical text, but that God has preserved the way to salvation. Once I started LOOKING, I was amazed at what I began FINDING! The point is, “If you're not LOOKING, you're not going to SEE anything!”

[NickHassan]

Quote (truebelief4u @ April 01 2006,17:54)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2006,09:22) Hi SS, Scripture says Jesus has a God. Jn 20.17 “..I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God” If Jesus is our God who is His God in an equal trinity? Just another nail in the coffin of the great “trinity” doctrine….when will most Christians realize that to even ATTEMP to defend this doctrine is ludicrous? 1.  The Roman Church itself ADMITS it is a purely fabricated doctrine and that they CHANGED the Bible text (several times) so the text would then support the doctrine. 2.  EVERY verse that supports the doctrine is a spurious verse, altered or added by the Roman Church….there is NO authentic Biblical support for a co-equal trinity…PERIOD! 3.  The doctrine was initially fabricated due to the argument between Athanasius and Arius in the late 3rd/early 4th century, and even the Roman Church itself waffled on the doctrine for over 1200 years, not formally declaring it “dogma” until the 16th century after the Council of Trent. 4.  To go back BEYOND the late 3rd/early 4th century and try to “find” reasons to support the doctrine is ludicrous….NO ONE in the first couple centuries of Christianity, or the 4,000 years of Hebrew history before that EVER understood Yahweh to be some kind of multiple godhead….they understood Him to be ONE BEING….Yahweh…..PERIOD……who acted through His “spirit.”  And let us not forget that Jesus (Yashuah) didn't even EXIST until he was conceived BY the action of Yahweh through the spirit and was BORN of Mary. 5.  If you want to get real, then you not only have to face the fact that the trinity is a false, fabricated doctrine, you also have to consider that Jesus DID NOT have some sort of magical “pre-existence.”  Everyone seems to confuse John 1:1 to mean “Jesus” was present and did the creating…..that is not the case….the SPIRIT did the will of God during creation. [Example: Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.]  Please note that it says “THE SPIRIT OF GOD,” it doesn't say “Jesus.” What the “pre-existence theorists” are trying to do (and have pretty much succeeded doing) is to go back and re-interpret the verses and substitute Jesus for the “spirit.”  When are Protestants ever going to realize (and admit) that the Roman Church CHANGED the @%$#*&^ text to conform to their “new doctrine (trinity)???”  Wake up folks….the Roman Church has been playing with the text for over 1600 years….and I'm sorry to say the Protestants have also done some changing around to the text in the last 500 years.  There are Bibles now that specifically say “Friday” was the day of crucifixion, which is DEAD WRONG according to the timetable and prophecies….it was Wednesday, not Friday…..but do you think the modern day “church” (Catholic or Protestant) is going to start admitting errors?

Hi tb4u,
Trinity surely is for those who do not know God. If you abide in the word there is no use for such fanciful human concoctions.

But are you saying;
The only begotten son means the begotten son?
Was The son of God only conceived in Mary?
Was he not the firstborn son as others appear before him in scripture then?
Was he not with God in the beginning?
Did he not descend from heaven?
Was he not sent as a son from heaven?
Was the only begotten son not sent into the world?
Did he not have glory with the Father before the world was?
Was he not before Abraham and David and John the Baptist?
Did he not humble himself and come in the flesh?
Did he not partake of flesh?
Could he not ascend back to from whence he came?
Was all creation not made through him?
Did he not have divine origins?
etc etc etc

These things are written. Are you greater than the being and the words of the Son of God?

[Scripture Seeker]

Likewise Woutlaw
Brother thanks for your kindness you have shown me, even though we don’t agree, I truly respect you and all others on this forum.
What we believe is the truth we must proclaim! This says a lot about you and all others on this forum!

Praise God for you all.

Oh well back to the debate of what we believe is the truth!

I will reply back about the Greek words used latter. My wife is away and I am looking after the Children.

[Scripture Seeker]

Hi Nick,
I don’t believe God intended everyone to have master degrees in the word, I believe that’s why he left a Church that even though the gates of hell are against it and it is full of wolves in sheep’s clothing the gates of hell won’t prevail against it. God loves the simple, and I don’t believe he came to leave a bible and say good luck with your search.

As far as the trinity goes I will post the Churches teaching on it latter. They have declared it a mystery, who can fully understand God but himself.

Phi 2:5  LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6  Who, being in THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:

I would like to quote James Atkins.
First of all, Scripture expressly says that the Son is equal to the Father. In Philippians Paul speaks of how the Son VOLUNTARILY took on a humble human form even though he was equal with the Father:
“Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6b-7).
John's gospel itself also stresses the equality of the Son with the Father:
“[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18).
Given these explicit declarations of the Son's equality with the Father, we must explain statements like “my Father is greater than I” in some other way, as referring to some other kind of difference between the two Persons than a difference of essence.
And there is no difficulty in doing this, for the Father is above the Son in the economy of the Trinity and in the order of Persons (the Son is begotten by the Father), but not they are equal in essence. In fact, they are equal in essence precisely because the Jesus is the Son of the Father.
If I, as a man, fathered a son, my son would have the same essence I do–being a man–and while I might be greater than him in rank or position (by virtue of being his father), we would have equal essences.
This is the situation between the Son and the Father. Both have the same essence, and so both are equal in what they are, even if the Father is above the Son in other senses.
End of quote.

The fact that the Father calls his son God shows that Jesus is equal to him in essence, God never calls anyone his master and especially not his God! He says there is no one beside him, no savor, not one. I believe this can be, because the Father and the Son are one.

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

God Bless.

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
Do you usually use KJV or only choose it for that quaint and awful translation of Phil 2.5-6? It is clear from any other translation that the Son decided not to steal what he never had had-equality with God.

So you do not need any other explanations for the superiority of the Father over his Son. As Jesus said the Father is greater than he, even his God.

Jesus is the image of the Father.
What image is as great as that which it reflects?
Does not every image lose something of the qualities of the original?
What son is exactly like his father?
Identical twins are so similar but still not exactly the same.
Does not both the Sun and moon give light but the light of the moon is only the reflected light of the greater sun?
What mirror shows all the dimensions of that which it reflects?

The Son of God is mighty but he is less than his Father, Almighty God.

[Cubes]

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ April 01 2006,21:39)

Hi Nick, Phi 2:5  LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU, which was also in Christ Jesus: Phi 2:6  Who, being in THE FORM OF GOD, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD: I would like to quote James Atkins. First of all, Scripture expressly says that the Son is equal to the Father. In Philippians Paul speaks of how the Son VOLUNTARILY took on a humble human form even though he was equal with the Father: “Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men” (Philippians 2:6b-7). John's gospel itself also stresses the equality of the Son with the Father: “[T]he Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18). Given these explicit declarations of the Son's equality with the Father, we must explain statements like “my Father is greater than I” in some other way, as referring to some other kind of difference between the two Persons than a difference of essence. And there is no difficulty in doing this, for the Father is above the Son in the economy of the Trinity and in the order of Persons (the Son is begotten by the Father), but not they are equal in essence. In fact, they are equal in essence precisely because the Jesus is the Son of the Father. If I, as a man, fathered a son, my son would have the same essence I do–being a man–and while I might be greater than him in rank or position (by virtue of being his father), we would have equal essences. This is the situation between the Son and the Father. Both have the same essence, and so both are equal in what they are, even if the Father is above the Son in other senses. End of quote. The fact that the Father calls his son God shows that Jesus is equal to him in essence, God never calls anyone his master and especially not his God! He says there is no one beside him, no savor, not one. I believe this can be, because the Father and the Son are one. Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. God Bless.

Hi Scripture Seeker,

How are you?

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
It is written that sons should honour their parents.
Should the Son of God any less defer to his heavenly Father?
Sons owe their existence and welfare and nurturing to their parents.
Should they challenge them and not respect them?
Are not children less than their parents and obliged to obey them?
Phil 2 says the Son wisely did not challenge for what was not his by right and instead sought obedience to the greater being, his Father.

The foolish Jews thought that Jesus was claiming equality with God. They eventually killed him because of this folly. Do you agree with their judgements against the Son of God?

Did you not know that they also claimed to be sons of God [Jn 8.41]and scripture agrees that they are? So on what basis do they judge Jesus? If they say he is claiming equality should they not also say that they are too?

[Scripture Seeker]

Hi,

We all can easily point to scripture and say look here Jesus is lesser, WHY does it say he was lesser why did God humble himself to become flesh? For US ALL, and do we really want to point to these scriptures and say hey look he can’t be God he died.    

Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little LOWER THAN THE ANGELS, for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour: that, through the grace of God he might taste death FOR ALL.

Joh 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Just because one is lesser on earth does that mean he is lesser in heaven?

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me with THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I HAD with thee before the world was.

Here’s the Churches teaching.

Paragraph # 253  

The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the “consubstantial Trinity”. The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: “The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God.” In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), “Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.”

But it has been around a whole lot older than this!

Arianism
Arianism was the teaching of Arius, a priest in the Alexandrian church. He died in AD 336, and most of his writings have not survived to this day. His teaching was that Jesus Christ is not eternal, that His begetting from the Father was an event in time, which has the effect of making Jesus the first and most exalted of God’s creations. Essentially, any teaching is Arian if it says that Jesus was a human being who found the way, or if it says that Jesus was a medium and that a separate being named Christ was His familiar. (“Christ” is Jesus’ job title, so the phrase “Christ Jesus” is analogous to “Professor Smith” in that Jesus and Smith hold the job titles of Christ and Professor, respectively.) The Arian controversy lasted from AD 318 to 381.
THE COUNCIL OF NICEA IN AD 325 OFFICIALLY DECLARED THAT ARIANISM WAS A HERESY, BASING THEIR FINDINGS IN PART ON JOHN 1:1-18. THE RESOLUTION THAT THEY ADOPTED TO COMBAT ARIANISM IS THE NICENE CREED [SEE BELOW]. In the continuing controversy, Athanasius was the chief advocate of orthodoxy and because of his labors the orthodox position prevailed. THE COUNCIL OF CONSTANTINOPLE IN AD 381 ESSENTIALLY ENDED THE CONTROVERSY BY REAFFIRMING THE CONDEMNATION OF ARIANISM.
The Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through Him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
         He came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
         He became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
         and was made man.
    For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    He suffered death and was buried.
    On the third day He rose again
         in accordance with the Scriptures;
    He ascended into heaven
         and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
         and His kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
         and the life of the world to come. AMEN.

The Church has authority to bind and loosen and has defeated many other heresys such as
Pelagianism, Gnosticism, Marcionism, Sabellianism, and Manichæanism.
Woutlaw,
Are you looking at scripture that reveals the Christ on earth or in heaven, and remember he is both Christ and Lord, he is man, to be the Gate, but he is also the Lord who says he is the “I AM”.

Who was this, who was pierced here, who was speaking here!  

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: AND THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, AND THEY ALSO WHICH PIERCED HIM: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 1:8  I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING, SAITH THE LORD, which is, and which was, AND WHICH IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY.

Rev 1:9  I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the WORD OF GOD, AND FOR THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST.
Rev 1:10  I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Rev 1:11  Saying, I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 1:12  AND I TURNED TO SEE THE VOICE THAT SPAKE WITH ME. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the SON OF MAN, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Rev 1:14  His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
Rev 1:15  And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Rev 1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

I believe he is one and the same as the Father, there is no one beside God he says so himself his word cannot lie. Ask any Jew who knows there Jewish faith how many Gods there are, they will tell you there is ONE and all others are self proclaimed or man made.
If you want to know about the Father Almighty look at Jesus! Lets no break them into separate Gods, for there is only one.

NOTE the word “AND HIS” (below)

Isa 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isa 43:11  I AM, I AM THE LORD: AND THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDES ME.

Isa 43:12  I have declared, and have saved. I have made it heard, and there was no strange one among you. You are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and I am God.
Isa 43:13  And from the beginning I am the same, and there is none that CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HIND: I will work, and who shall turn it away?

Joh 10:27  My sheep hear my voice. And I know them: and they follow me.
Joh 10:28  And I give them life everlasting: and they shall not perish for ever. AND NO MAN SHALL PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND.

Jam 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the de
vils also believe and tremble.

To humble to become lesser in this world does not mean lesser in heaven.

Mat 18:4  Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the GREATER IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN.

GOD BLESS

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
Is the one standing at the right hand of God not less than Almighty God?
If he says he is should we not believe him?
Which teachers are greater than he?

Which church or denominational teaching are you presenting?

Are these teachers greater than Jesus and the apostles?

God said
“This is My Son..” Should we not at least believe God?

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
Zech 12.10 in the first part shows that in rejecting and killing the Son of God they were also rejecting the God who was in him and had sent him.
The second part truly identifies his nature also as the Son of God, the firstborn of all creation, the beloved only begotten son of God.
One could not look at Jesus and not also see God within him as Jesus taught Phillip in Jn 14. Thomas showed he understood when he said to the vessel and the contents of that vessel
“My Lord and my God”

[Scripture Seeker]

Hi Nick,

I was quite interested in the combination of scriptures you used here and the identity of the Son of God. It’s as if the word spoke to me with these questions in mind.

We know that Jesus is the Son of God! But what does this actually mean? It could mean a number of different things.

The Word of God shows that the Pharisees did not understand how Jesus was referring to God as his Father. Jesus spoke many times of his Father to them but they did not understand the relationship.

(ASV)  They perceived not that he spake to them of the Father.

(DRB)  And they understood not that he called God his Father.

(KJVA)  They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

Joh 8:27  And they understood not that he called God his Father.

This next verse is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, this is where Jesus tells us HOW we will know who he is!

Joh 8:28  JESUS THEREFORE SAID TO THEM: When you shall have LIFTED UP, the Son of man, THEN SHALL YOU KNOW THAT I AM HE and that I do nothing of myself. But as the Father hath taught me, these things I speak.

Gods word says we will know who Jesus is when he is lifted up (above), and to believe in him the one that is lifted up is life everlasting (below).

Joh 3:14  And as Moses LIFTED UP THE SERPENT IN THE DESERT, SO MUST THE SON OF MAN BE LIFTED UP:
Joh 3:15  That whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM MAY NOT PERISH, BUT MAY HAVE LIFE EVERLASTING.

So Jesus is lifted up and humbled himself on the cross to death.
Jesus said you will then know that “I am he”.

Joh 19:34  But one of the soldiers with a spear PIERCED HIS SIDE, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

Look how Gods Word emphasizes that this statement is true!

Joh 19:35  And HE THAT SAW IT HATH GIVEN TESTIMONY: AND HIS TESTIMONY IS TRUE. AND HE KNOWETH THAT HE SAITH TRUE: THAT YOU ALSO MAY BELIEVE.

Joh 19:36  For these things were done that the scripture might be fulfilled: You shall not break a bone of him.
Joh 19:37  AND AGAIN ANOTHER SCRIPTURE SAITH: THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

Jesus being lifted up and then pierced shows WHO he really is, it shows that he is the ONE Lord God who said they shall look upon me the one they have pierced!

Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: AND THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Before Jesus had died he had humbled HIMSELF to become lower than the angels but after he died the Father Glorified the Son with himself, the Glory he had with the Father from the beginning.

Jesus is continued to be REVELED BY HIS PIERCED SIDE. It reveals Jesus as the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last

Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him: AND THEY ALSO THAT PIERCED HIM. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen.
Rev 1:8  I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, the beginning and the end, saith the LORD GOD, WHO IS and WHO WAS and WHO IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY.

Rev 1:11  SAYING, I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Rev 1:12  AND I TURNED TO SEE THE VOICE THAT SPAKE WITH ME. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Rev 1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:

Let’s compare this with the Old Testament before Jesus humbled himself to even become lower than the angels for our sins!

Notice the word and WITH THE LAST, then Jehovah says I AM HE. The name Jehovah is used for LORD in both cases.

Isa 41:4  Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and WITH THE LAST; I AM HE.

Notice the word AND HIS REDEEMER, together they are the First and the last. And again the name Jehovah is used in both cases. And beside Him there is no God.

Isa 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS REDEEMER the LORD of hosts; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.

WHERE ELSE IS JESUS REVEALED BY HIS PIERCED SIDE.
Even Jesus own disciple would not believe UNTIL HE PUT HIS HAND IN THE SIDE WHERE JESUS HAD BEEN PIERCED.

Joh 20:27  Then he said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the HAND AND PUT IT INTO MY SIDE. And be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28  Thomas answered and said to him: MY LORD AND MY GOD.

Jesus is again revealed by his pierced side which Jesus himself said you will know I am he, when the Son of Man has been lifted up. This is true meaning of what the Son of God means as the Pharisees questioned him on his relationship.

So when Jesus is called the Son of God, he is revealed as one with the Father, the same equal essence this is how the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father.

Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31  But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE SON OF GOD: AND THAT BELIEVING, YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN HIS NAME.

When Jesus warned the Pharisees that they would die in there sins if they did not believe him when he said “I AM HE”, they asked WHO ART THOU?

Joh 8:24  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you BELIEVE NOT that I AM HE, you shall die in your sin.

Joh 8:25  They said therefore to him: Who art thou? JESUS SAID TO THEM: The beginning, WHO ALSO SPEAK UNTO YOU.

Gen 1:26  And GOD SAID, Let US MAKE man in our image, after OUR LIKENESS…..
Gen 1:27  So GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE….

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD.

Joh 8:58  JESUS SAID TO THEM: AMEN, AMEN, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM.

Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15  And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: THIS IS MY NAME FOR EVER, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

This is why God the Father calls his son God, because he is one with him and in him, the Father is in the Son AND the Son is in the Father. This how there is only one God!
This is why if we reject the Son we reject the Father because they are ONE. Satan will try and make us see the Son as the helpless lamb and not the Alpha and the Omega.  Satan even deceived Gods chosen people, they where waiting for God to come in the flesh and strike the nations with all power, they did not recognize that he could be found with the simple and helpless.

It is true Jesus was lower than his Father when he became God in the flesh, Emmanuel.
For UNTO US a child is born…. the everla
sting Father the mighty God. But this was so he could die and take THE SINS OF THE WORLD AWAY and obtain for us salvation forever. There is NO SIN that can’t be forgiven, apart from the sin of not listening to the Holy Spirit which convicts us of our sins! This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit!  

Jesus is now glorified with the Glory that he had with the Father from the Beginning.

Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF with THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead corporeally.

No offense intended but there are many warnings about denying Jesus and there are never any warnings about worshipping him, falling at his feet as if dead and washing his feet with tears etc.  How can our Judge our Lord Jesus Christ condemn us for worshiping him when he never condemns anyone for worshipping him or never teaches that he should not be worshiped.
Instead he corrects his disciple for asking him to show him the Father!

Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I AM IN THE FATHER, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11  Believe me that I AM IN THE FATHER, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Just as the Father is in him he ALSO IS IN THE FATHER. They are ONE ESSENCE.

God Bless

[Scripture Seeker]

Friends,

We also hope to be Sons of God.

But we are not born this way we need to be ADOPTED.
Notice that the adoption is through Jesus “the Gate” and UNTO himself the Lord.

Eph 1:5  Who hath predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children through Jesus Christ UNTO HIMSELF: according to the purpose OF HIS WILL:

Jesus is both Christ and Lord. There is only one Lord

2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace and in the knowledge of OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity, Amen.

Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God IS ONE LORD.

I believe we should love the Lord Jesus who is one Lord with the Father – With all our heart all our soul and all our strength, the Great Commandment.

Deu 6:5  Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength.
Deu 6:6  And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart:
Deu 6:7  And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising.
Deu 6:8  And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

God bless.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ April 09 2006,09:57)

Hi Nick, I was quite interested in the combination of scriptures you used here and the identity of the Son of God. It’s as if the word spoke to me with these questions in mind. We know that Jesus is the Son of God! But what does this actually mean? It could mean a number of different things. The Word of God shows that the Pharisees did not understand how Jesus was referring to God as his Father. Jesus spoke many times of his Father to them but they did not understand the relationship. (ASV)  They perceived not that he spake to them of the Father. (DRB)  And they understood not that he called God his Father. (KJVA)  They understood not that he spake to them of the Father. Joh 8:27  And they understood not that he called God his Father. This next verse is EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, this is where Jesus tells us HOW we will know who he is! Joh 8:28  JESUS THEREFORE SAID TO THEM: When you shall have LIFTED UP, the Son of man, THEN SHALL YOU KNOW THAT I AM HE and that I do nothing of myself. But as the Father hath taught me, these things I speak. Gods word says we will know who Jesus is when he is lifted up (above), and to believe in him the one that is lifted up is life everlasting (below). Joh 3:14  And as Moses LIFTED UP THE SERPENT IN THE DESERT, SO MUST THE SON OF MAN BE LIFTED UP: Joh 3:15  That whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM MAY NOT PERISH, BUT MAY HAVE LIFE EVERLASTING. So Jesus is lifted up and humbled himself on the cross to death. Jesus said you will then know that “I am he”. Joh 19:34  But one of the soldiers with a spear PIERCED HIS SIDE, and forthwith came there out blood and water. Look how Gods Word emphasizes that this statement is true! Joh 19:35  And HE THAT SAW IT HATH GIVEN TESTIMONY: AND HIS TESTIMONY IS TRUE. AND HE KNOWETH THAT HE SAITH TRUE: THAT YOU ALSO MAY BELIEVE. Joh 19:36  For these things were done that the scripture might be fulfilled: You shall not break a bone of him. Joh 19:37  AND AGAIN ANOTHER SCRIPTURE SAITH: THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED. Jesus being lifted up and then pierced shows WHO he really is, it shows that he is the ONE Lord God who said they shall look upon me the one they have pierced! Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: AND THEY SHALL LOOK UPON ME WHOM THEY HAVE PIERCED, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. Before Jesus had died he had humbled HIMSELF to become lower than the angels but after he died the Father Glorified the Son with himself, the Glory he had with the Father from the beginning. Jesus is continued to be REVELED BY HIS PIERCED SIDE. It reveals Jesus as the Alpha and the Omega the first and the last Rev 1:7  Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him: AND THEY ALSO THAT PIERCED HIM. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen. Rev 1:8  I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, the beginning and the end, saith the LORD GOD, WHO IS and WHO WAS and WHO IS TO COME, THE ALMIGHTY. Rev 1:11  SAYING, I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND THE LAST: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:12  AND I TURNED TO SEE THE VOICE THAT SPAKE WITH ME. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; Rev 1:13  And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. Rev 1:16  And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Rev 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST: Let’s compare this with the Old Testament before Jesus humbled himself to even become lower than the angels for our sins! Notice the word and WITH THE LAST, then Jehovah says I AM HE. The name Jehovah is used for LORD in both cases. Isa 41:4  Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and WITH THE LAST; I AM HE. Notice the word AND HIS REDEEMER, together they are the First and the last. And again the name Jehovah is used in both cases. And beside Him there is no God. Isa 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, AND HIS REDEEMER the LORD of hosts; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD. WHERE ELSE IS JESUS REVEALED BY HIS PIERCED SIDE. Even Jesus own disciple would not believe UNTIL HE PUT HIS HAND IN THE SIDE WHERE JESUS HAD BEEN PIERCED. Joh 20:27  Then he said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the HAND AND PUT IT INTO MY SIDE. And be not faithless, but believing. Joh 20:28  Thomas answered and said to him: MY LORD AND MY GOD. Jesus is again revealed by his pierced side which Jesus himself said you will know I am he, when the Son of Man has been lifted up. This is true meaning of what the Son of God means as the Pharisees questioned him on his relationship. So when Jesus is called the Son of God, he is revealed as one with the Father, the same equal essence this is how the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father. Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. Joh 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: Joh 20:31  But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE SON OF GOD: AND THAT BELIEVING, YOU MAY HAVE LIFE IN HIS NAME. When Jesus warned the Pharisees that they would die in there sins if they did not believe him when he said “I AM HE”, they asked WHO ART THOU? Joh 8:24  Therefore I said to you that you shall die in your sins. For if you BELIEVE NOT that I AM HE, you shall die in your sin. Joh 8:25  They said therefore to him: Who art thou? JESUS SAID TO THEM: The beginning, WHO ALSO SPEAK UNTO YOU. Gen 1:26  And GOD SAID, Let US MAKE man in our image, after OUR LIKENESS….. Gen 1:27  So GOD CREATED MAN IN HIS OWN IMAGE…. Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the WORD WAS WITH GOD, and the WORD WAS GOD. Joh 8:58  JESUS SAID TO THEM: AMEN, AMEN, I say to you, before Abraham was made, I AM. Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. Exo 3:15  And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: THIS IS MY NAME FOR EVER, and this is my memorial unto all generations. This is why God the Father calls his son God, because he is one with him and in him, the Father is in the Son AND the Son is in the Father. This how there is only one God! This is why if we reject the Son we reject the Father because they are ONE. Satan will try and make us see the Son as the helpless lamb and not the Alpha and the Omega.  Satan even deceived Gods chosen people, they where waiting for God to come in the flesh and strike the nations with all power, they did not recognize that he could be found with the simple and helpless. It is true Jesus was lower than his Father when he became God in the flesh, Emmanuel. For UNTO US a child is born…. the everlasting Father the mighty God. But this was so he could die and take THE SINS OF THE WORLD AWAY and obtain for us salvation forever. There is NO SIN that can’t be forgiven, apart from the sin of not listening to the Holy Spirit which convicts us of our sins! This is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit!   Jesus is now glorified with the Glory that he had with the Father from the Beginning. Joh 17:5  And now, O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF with THE GLORY WHICH I HAD WITH THEE BEFORE THE WORLD WAS. Col 2:9  For in him dwelleth ALL THE FULNESS of the Godhead corporeally. No offense intended but there are many warnings about denying Jesus and there are never any warnings about worshipping him, falling at his feet as if dead and washing his feet with tears etc.  How can our Judge our Lord Jesus Christ condemn us for worshiping him when he never condemns anyone for worshipping him or never teaches that he should not be worshiped. Instead he corrects his disciple for asking him to show him the Father! Joh 14:9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Joh 14:10  Believest thou not that I AM IN THE FATHER, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Joh 14:11  Believe me that I AM IN THE FATHER, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Just as the Father is in him he ALSO IS IN THE FATHER. They are ONE ESSENCE. God Bless

Hi SS,
Indeed Jesus is He.
He is the sorely awaited messiah.

I am pleased you speak of the relationship between the Father and the Son. It takes two to have a relationship. The two are Father and Son. Yes Jesus is the Son of God and the simple meaning is the correct one. God is his Father.

He is not that God but is the Son of that God.

He is not son just by title. He is the real Son of God. He is the beloved only begotten Son. Peter believed this. Do you?

Why would you be confused that scripture relate to Him about the Father? Does that make you think he is his own Father? Do you not know that scripture says the Father God was in him reconciling the world to Himself?

That is two in very close relationship. So as he told Philip when they saw him they saw the Father? God was in him and with him doing His works of Power through him. That is what scripture says. Why add to these things?

One, but not one and the same.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ April 09 2006,10:01)

Friends, We also hope to be Sons of God. But we are not born this way we need to be ADOPTED. Notice that the adoption is through Jesus “the Gate” and UNTO himself the Lord. Eph 1:5  Who hath predestinated us unto the ADOPTION of children through Jesus Christ UNTO HIMSELF: according to the purpose OF HIS WILL: Jesus is both Christ and Lord. There is only one Lord 2Pe 3:18  But grow in grace and in the knowledge of OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity, Amen. Deu 6:4  Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God IS ONE LORD. I believe we should love the Lord Jesus who is one Lord with the Father – With all our heart all our soul and all our strength, the Great Commandment. Deu 6:5  Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength. Deu 6:6  And these words which I command thee this day, shall be in thy heart: Deu 6:7  And thou shalt tell them to thy children, and thou shalt meditate upon them sitting in thy house, and walking on thy journey, sleeping and rising. Deu 6:8  And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. God bless.

Hi SS,
You will know of course that the words for Lord used in the Old and the New Testament are not equivalent. The Jews substituted the word YHWH with LORD in the OT because they feared God and were terrified of transgressing in any way against Him.

A good lesson for today.

So in the NT when it refers to Jesus as LORD it has nothing to do with him being his own Father. He is the Son of God, not God Himself.

This is their relationship spelt out for us in the NT who are in Christ. He is the head of the body, Lord of the body under God.
1 Cor 8.6
” Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things; AND one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things”

[MrBob]

Romans 3:20-28 (WEB)
Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight. For through the law comes the knowledge of sin.

But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; whom God set forth to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what manner of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.

We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Hebrews 6:20 (WEB)
. . .where as a forerunner Jesus entered for us, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

It is also important to note that the word translated as “charity” in 1 Cor. 13:1-13 is the Greek word agape, meaning “love.” So works are not better than faith and hope–love is.

From the passages above, we can see that we are saved by grace through faith. If one really has faith and trusts in YHWH, works will follow. However, faith–not works–is what justifies us. Please be aware of the simplicity that is in Christ (II Corinthians 11:3).

[NickHassan]

Hi Mr Bob,
So
if your faith in God leads you to the bible
and your faith in the bible leads you to the words of Jesus
and your faith in the words of Jesus causes you to obey the demands of God
to repent and be born again of water and the Spirit
you will be saved?

I agree.

[Scripture Seeker]

Hi Nick,

I also agree they are not the same person, this is what the trinity states! But they are the same God, the same Essence, the Father in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD.

Jam 2:19  Thou believest that THERE IS ONE GOD; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Joh 1:2  THE SAME was in the beginning with God.

If we reject the Son we reject the Father because they are the same essence GOD!

God Bless

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
What do you understand about the essence of God? What are the dimensions and aspects of divinity?

[Woutlaw]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 10 2006,21:00)

Hi SS, What do you understand about the essence of God? What are the dimensions and aspects of divinity?

good question?

[Author]

Posts