Scripture Seeker

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
Please do not put words in my mouth.

[He’s Coming in the Clouds]

Dear Krench,

The problem is that none here can dispute the doctrine. They attempt to badger and poke and jab. They hope they may come to make sense of it without having to do the actual study as requested by the original poster, myself. Yet, to aquire the full benefit of this study will come only through doing the study. It is like anything that is of God. God will reveal to those who seek him. To those who do not, they will continue as they do every day. They will claim to know him with the fruit of their lips, but not with their heart.

Revelation 3:16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

[He’s Coming in the Clouds]

Dear Krench,

The problem is that none here can dispute the doctrine. They attempt to badger and poke and jab. They hope they may come to make sense of it without having to do the actual study as requested by the original poster, myself. Yet, to aquire the full benefit of this study will come only through doing the study. It is like anything that is of God. God will reveal to those who seek him. To those who do not, they will continue as they do every day. They will claim to know him with the fruit of their lips, but not with their heart.

Revelation 3:16 So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

[NickHassan]

Hi H,
We are too busy studying the doctrine of the Master to fit your doctrine in.

[Cubes]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 19 2006,21:35)

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 18 2006,19:01) Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 17 2006,22:28) It is by faith that we are saved.  If the young solider became a war hero by saving other soliders and has no faith will the solider be saved. You cannot put anything before faith.  All things come AFTER faith in Jesus. Hi Ken, I've answered these similar questions of yours at least twice before but let me try again. If the soldier laid down his life for his friends… no greater love has any man than to lay down his life for his friends….   And yet, not all who would do such a thing would enter into the kingdom of heaven if they are found to be without love.  (1 Cor 13).  Also don't forget, there is the whole thread regarding war, so we can't just conclude that because a professed christian (baby or matured) that they are automatically saved OR not saved.  God knows the heart,  history and surrounding circumstances of events leading up to that point in time. So these are matters reserved for his son whom he has appointed judge.  Moreover he knows what things are done for His sake and glory, and if he is pleased, who am I to disagree? “And I still believe that    “you dissect faith since belief is not the whole of it”,    as scripture demonstrates:” I'm sorry cubes I thought you said that you answered and agreed that it is FAITH that saves and faith alone without works.  I thought you said that I didn't missunderstood what you were saying.  You are right I don't understand what you are saying.  One minute you seem to agree that it is faith that saves then the next minute you say that “belief is not the whole of it”  If that were the case then surely the soldier would not be saved.

Ken,

I said that it is GRACE by which we are saved, thru
Faith.  Not that we were righteous or earned it through the sweat of our brows.

Having said that, I said that my understanding of Faith, given what I've looked at from the 1st and 2nd covenant, tells me that there is more to faith than just belief.  In fact, belief itself would seem to comprise of obedience.

Abraham, we are told, BELIEVED and it was accounted to him for righteousness.  So the first I read about Abram AND the Lord, here's what happened:

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD HAD SAID unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Gen 12:4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him:

We know that later on, he would be asked by God to offer up Isaac to him in sacrifice, and this he was willing to do.  Later on in Hebrews, these specific things are mentioned in connection with faith.

Then comes Moses, the foreshadowing prophet of the Christ.  In Exodus 3&4 he encounters [the angel of] God in the desert.  God introduces himself to him and sends him to do a job, to get his people out of Egypt etc.  Very similar to Jesus being sent to do the greater work on the larger scale.  God had good plans for Israel which would require belief and obedience at the same time.

So the conversation was simultaneously about BELIEF and HEARKENING.  We know that the children of Israel were not pagan, in that they knew there was some one powerful in heaven called God who had done all these wonders.  We might say then that they believed in God.  But that is not what the scriptures called their behavior.  It says they had UNBELIEF (Heb 3 & 4).  And when we go back to look at what defined their unbelief, we find that they could not believe and HEARKEN to the voice of GOD thru Moses.

They were not being asked to run a Marathon.  God was just moving them from point A to point B, but they resisted (though not all) and so often frustrated Moses and kindled the Lord God's anger with their behavior.  

This at the very least suggests to me, that at the time God usually reveals himself to us, this is coupled with some instructions.  Moses was told not to get any closer to the burning bush, for instance.  Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the Tree of Good and Evil; Abram was asked to move.

Jesus said believe and be baptized.  When he called his disciples, he'd tell them to come follow him; after he'd introduced himself to Saul (Paul) in that dramatic encounter, Paul was first to ask him what he would like, and the next thing was:  

And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

etc, etc, etc.

A person who believes on Jesus would follow, be baptized, get up and go to the city or do whatever the Lord has asked of him.  

I hear you then when you say that you agree, that the fruits/works FOLLOW faith.

In the case of Cornelius, [and to some extent the Centurion], his fruits PRECEDED his faith in Jesus though he feared God.

I also want to say that my understanding [and I don't ask you to subscribe to it], is that at its inception, the faith which God finds pleasing is complete in all its facets and is therefore not just acknowledging that God is and rewards, but it is understood that such a person also DILIGENTLY SEEKS God.
So to say that one has faith implies that one has ALREADY exhibited pleasing behavior towards God.

You want to say that it is belief or knowledge that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him from the dead and that's all, then I'll just have to accept your view point.  Though, I would also suggest going back to review the source text in Deut. as the 2nd covenant is not independent of the 1st covenant, and in fact, Paul said that he preaches nothing other than what the prophets of God said shall be concerning Jesus.  

If the soldier has believed and hearkened to the Lord's voice in whatsoever God did ask of him before he died, I don't see why God would reject him.  I am not necessarily stipulating baptism.  It could be as unique as the other examples.

[Cubes]

Hi Ken,

I wish to clarify my final statements before the soldier, and say I realize that you have said that a person who has genuine faith would follow through with good works.

I agree in part. I say it is the person with the fruits of obedience and love for God who can be said to have faith in God. That becomes established quite early on during one's encounter with God as in the examples I've shown.

Mine is an examination of what it means to have the faith that pleases God, by which the just live.

Exd 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

Compared to:

Job 1:1 ¶ There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Long before your soldier dies, God already knows what sort of person he is, I believe, and whether or not his faith was genuine given his unique set of circumstances.

Blessings.

[Cubes]

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 20 2006,09:11)

So the conversation was simultaneously about BELIEF and HEARKENING.  We know that the children of Israel were not pagan, in that they knew there was some one powerful in heaven called God who had done all these wonders.  We might say then that they believed in God.  But that is not what the scriptures called their behavior.  It says they had UNBELIEF (Heb 3 & 4).  And when we go back to look at what defined their unbelief, we find that they could not believe and HEARKEN to the voice of GOD thru Moses. They were not being asked to run a Marathon.  God was just moving them from point A to point B, but they resisted (though not all) and so often frustrated Moses and kindled the Lord God's anger with their behavior.   This at the very least suggests to me, that at the time God usually reveals himself to us, this is coupled with some instructions.  Moses was told not to get any closer to the burning bush, for instance.  Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the Tree of Good and Evil; Abram was asked to move. Jesus said believe and be baptized.  When he called his disciples, he'd tell them to come follow him; after he'd introduced himself to Saul (Paul) in that dramatic encounter, Paul was first to ask him what he would like, and the next thing was:   And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord [said] unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. etc, etc, etc. A person who believes on Jesus would follow, be baptized, get up and go to the city or do whatever the Lord has asked of him.

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, *as I said to you. 27 My sheep HEAR MY VOICE, and I KNOW THEM, and THEY FOLLOW ME. 28 And I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all OBEYED the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and HEARING by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.
Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a DISOBEDIENT and gainsaying people.

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 19 2006,18:17)

Hi kenrch, Please do not put words in my mouth.

I have no idea of what you are talking about. If I said something that you didn't say I apologize but as far as I know I haven't said anything that you haven't said in one way or another.

You do believe unless one is dunked in holy water the person is lost, correct? No matter what the situation, correct?

[kenrch]

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 20 2006,04:43)

Hi Ken, I wish to clarify my final statements before the soldier, and say I realize that you have said that a person who has genuine faith would follow through with good works. I agree in part.  I say it is the person with the fruits of obedience and love for God who can be said to have faith in God.  That becomes established quite early on during one's encounter with God as in the examples I've shown.   Mine is an examination of what it means to have the faith that pleases God, by which the just live. Exd 3:19  And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand. Compared to: Job 1:1 ¶ There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. Job 1:8  And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Long before your soldier dies, God already knows what sort of person he is, I believe, and whether or not his faith was genuine given his unique set of circumstances. Blessings.

I wish to clarify my final statements before the soldier, and say I realize that you have said that a person who has genuine faith would follow through with good works.

I agree in part.  I say it is the person with the fruits of obedience and love for God who can be said to have faith in God.  That becomes established quite early on during one's encounter with God as in the examples I've shown.  

Mine is an examination of what it means to have the faith that pleases God, by which the just live.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong I don't know but it seems that you are putting the works before the faith.  How could you “agree in part”.  It is through faith that everything else follows.  I fail to see how you “agree in part”.  This is what scriptures says.

You say ….”what it means to have faith that pleases God.”. You can see the fruits of those who have faith to FIRST believe in Christ.

You can have faith and be saved but you will not be saved because you have works. “Lest anyone boast”

Whatever you believe is alright with me.  I'm not the judge.  But we should be careful as to what we teach.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
Here are some things you have said about me on this thread.

“Why not seek the Lord on this Nick.  Have you done so yet?  If you have then you know that you are wrong in saying that God is a murderer.  That is what you are teaching isn't it?   If a person cannot get to water OR perform works before the person dies God will burn that person.”

“Look I said that works follow REAL FAITH.  But the works “FOLLOW”.  That's all!!  Nick believes that if the soldier were not baptized then he was not saved before he died.  I do not agree whith Nick.”

I have never made statements such as these and called God a murderer and such statements slander me.

I have never even said that if a man is not baptised he cannot be saved.

Mk 16
” 15He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.”

It does not say those who are not baptised cannot be saved.

What I have said is that is is God who saves
and the usual way of salvation in Jesus is following Jesus,
the way of Acts 2.38f

” 38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

That is the WAY of Christ

I have also said the Great White throne judgement after the second resurrection will bring in many who have never known Jesus, or been baptised in water or the Spirit. They are saved by the mercy of God according to their mercy towards the sons of God.

Matt 25
” 37″Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40″The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'”

And I have said God will take many from the highways and byways to fill the seats at the wedding feast.

The WAY is narrow and few will choose it so most who are saved will possibly be just by the mercy of God.

So I leave the details of salvation to God and just try to obey the small things he has given us to do and your imagined scenarios are not relevant for us to that obedience.

So please do not say I have said this or that unless you can quote me as you seem to misconstrue things.

[Cubes]

Quote (kenrch @ Oct. 20 2006,20:41)

You can have faith and be saved but you will not be saved because you have works. “Lest anyone boast”

While I am not suggesting that works without Jesus saves, or I would not have a need to declare to others the gospel, there are also some who have “faith” who will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Why?

My position is basically that all people have faith and believe.  But there is believe and there is believe.  My posts are to determine why one type of belief in Jesus saves and another does not.

Since God has given to each person a measure of faith, since God says in Romans 1 that no one has an excuse, it holds that all people of viable age and intellect (even demons), whether they admit it or not, must believe (faith)!  Do you see?  A measure of faith is pre-programmed into us to help us know that God is God, and that he is.  Some deny this of course but many do not.  Does that mean that all who do not are automatically saved?

This is why I don't know that belief in Jesus, is all that God looks for to declare one as having faith.  There is a surrender that characterizes the lives of those that are said to have faith, and we see their simple love and obedience to Christ.

Comparitive scriptures:   To me, both the young ruler and Matthew believed but one could not follow, and there is where the difference was.  Judas Iscariot, on the other hand, followed but could not abide in Jesus.  

[kenrch]

O Kay Cubes!

[kenrch]

O kaY Nick!

[seekingtruth]

Cubes,
Perhapes I'm misunderstanding you when you say “whether they admit it or not, must believe (faith)!” I do not believe that faith is the same as belief. Faith involves acting on the belief by surrendering and putting trust in God. Belief can consist as only knowledge (even demons believe and tremble).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, it is true belief if it leads to action, otherwise it is just head knowledge.

[Cubes]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 23 2006,10:09)

Cubes, Perhapes I'm misunderstanding you when you say “whether they admit it or not, must believe (faith)!” I do not believe that faith is the same as belief. Faith involves acting on the belief by surrendering and putting trust in God. Belief can consist as only knowledge (even demons believe and tremble). I guess what I'm trying to say is, it is true belief if it leads to action, otherwise it is just head knowledge.

Hi ST,

I wholeheartedly agree.

True faith in God, as far as I know and can see, is charactized by knowing God, followed by a loving submission and surrender to his will and, subsequently, to Jesus.

1 Peter 5:5b … Yes, all of you be submissive to one another, and be clothed with humility, for

“God resists the proud,
But gives GRACE to the HUMBLE.”*

6 Therefore HUMBLE yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time, 7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.

Belief in God is a necessary requisite and component (which many people have), but true faith is much more, and again, at the very least calls for our submission and surrender in hope to the Lord Jesus: at such a point, the Lord is not having to MAKE us go this way or that; we desire to go wherever he wishes to send us, so long as he is with us.

[Cubes]

Quote (Cubes @ Oct. 21 2006,04:25)

kenrch,Oct. wrote: My position is basically that all people have faith and believe.  But there is believe and there is believe.  My posts are to determine why one type of belief in Jesus saves and another does not. Since God has given to each person a measure of faith, since God says in Romans 1 that no one has an excuse, it holds that all people of viable age and intellect (even demons), whether they admit it or not, must believe (faith)!  Do you see?  A measure of faith is pre-programmed into us to help us know that God is God, and that he is.  Some deny this of course but many do not.  Does that mean that all who do not are automatically saved?

I just read this amusing and ridiculous article today and thought that parts of it touched on our discussions in this thread, so here it is:  the atheist version.    

I found it interesting that on a scale of 1-7, where 1 reflects belief in God's existence and 7 the opposite extreme, Mr. Dawkins, the author of a book about challenging the existence of God, could only rate himself a 6!  How about that!  There's the man's measure of faith, however scant!  

Here he is writing to attempt to convince people that there is no God, and even he himself can't state an unequivocal, solid 7!  On the other hand, although circumstances may cause some Christians to entertain doubts on occasion, I feel certain that our answer to the question would be a solid 1, in that we know of what we speak and have confidence that God is.  On the other hand, this guy is pretty sure that there is no God and wants to sell us on his idea but he himself is not 100% sure that there is no God!  To me that proves the scripture concerning a measure of faith given to everyone!  And I especially found interesting how they compared this inherent “measure of faith” which they call religion, to the phenomenon of falling in love, which is common to mankind and not something that is really taught.  

From The New York Times Book Review
Sunday Oct 22, 2006

This sort of coolly speculative thinking could not be more remote from the rococo rituals of religion as it is actually practiced across the world. Why is it that all human cultures have religion if, as Dawkins believes he has proved, it rests on a delusion? Many thinkers — Marx, Freud, Durkheim — have produced natural histories of religion, arguing that it arose to serve some social or psychological function, such as, in Freud’s account, the fulfillment of repressed wishes toward a father-figure….

…Dawkins’s gullible-child proposal is, as he concedes, just one of many Darwinian hypotheses that have been speculatively put forward to account for religion. (Another is that religion is a byproduct of our genetically programmed tendency to fall in love.) Perhaps one of these hypotheses is true. If so, what would that say about the truth of religious beliefs themselves? The story Dawkins tells about religion might also be told about science or ethics. All ideas can be viewed as memes that replicate by jumping from brain to brain. Some of these ideas, Dawkins observes, spread because they are good for us, in the sense that they raise the likelihood of our genes getting into the next generation; others — like, he claims, religion — spread because normally useful parts of our minds “misfire.” Ethical values, he suggests, fall into the first category. Altruism, for example, benefits our selfish genes when it is lavished on close kin who share copies of those genes, or on non-kin who are in a position to return the favor. But what about pure “Good Samaritan” acts of kindness? These, Dawkins says, could be “misfirings,” although, he hastens to add, misfirings of a “blessed, precious” sort, unlike the nasty religious ones.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006….5087%0A

[NickHassan]

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