Scripture Seeker

Participant

Scripture Seeker,

Ephesians 2:8 says that we are saved by grace through FAITH. We are not saved by works of the old law, Romans 3:28. Nor are we saved by good works. Its is by grace through Faith. Now most christians have a warped definition of faith. Faith isn't just believing, or simply trusting, read James 2:19. Even the demons believe and shudder so does that mean they are gonna be saved too? Many denominations say that we are saved by “Faith Alone”. Their definition of “Faith Alone” is just simply believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and “Accepting him as your Lord and Savior”. “Accepting Christ” is a heck of alot more than just saying a prayer, it is accepting what he taught, and the example he set before us. Many of these denominations will try to say “Faith Alone” excludes expressions of faith. No my friend, you can't divorce Faith from Expressions of Faith. For example, I am married, and I LOVE my wife. If I commit an act of LOVE to show her how much I care about her, is it outside of Love? I tell you the truth NO WAY. The same is with Faith. My friend the Gospel is simple enough for a child to understand. We have to faith in Jesus Christ and his message, Romans 10:17 says that faith comes by hearing the message. We must repent, which means you become conscious of your sinful ways and make a decision to turn away from those wicked ways and walk in righteousness, Luke 13:3. You then express your faith by being immersed in the name of Jesus Christ to recieve the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. Some denominations teach that water baptism saves you, WRONG. Some say that it washes away your sins, WRONG. Your sins are forgiven as a result of your expression of Faith, See Luke 5:20. When Jesus saw the faith of the men who brought a paralytic man to him, Jesus said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven”. How did he see their faith? Because it can be expressed. Water baptism unites you with the death of Jesus Christ. It's not a literal death of course but a spiritual one. We do this because we BELIEVE aka FAITH that we will also live with him. If we die with him, just as God raised Christ from the dead, he will do the same to us, Romans 6:1-8, Colossian 2:11-15, 2 Timothy 2:11. Water baptism isn't an “Outward Sign of Inward Grace” as many claim. Nor is it a “Work”. It is an expression of your Faith. If we do this, we will be raised to a new life, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is that new life. The baptism of the Holy Spirit places you into the Kingdom of God, seals you for the day of redemption, you are adopted into God's family, you recieve a new spirit, Ezekiel 36:26-27.

January 19, 2006 at 12:28 pm#19539

Participant

Thank you for your comments, But I have to disagree, lets look at the scripture that is used to exclude goods works, you will see it’s NOT talking about good works (charity) but it’s talking about ceremonial law of the JEWS.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Through faith it doesn’t say anything about by faith alone,
It’s like trying to say we are justified by works only (see below), which we know is also not true.

Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

We both agree that Salvation is a free gift from God and cannot be earned by any amount of faith or good works. But we disagree on how we receive this free gift. Is it by faith alone? or faith + good works (Charity)?.
Don’t get the wrong idea friends I have never said and do not believe that those that DONT believe in Jesus or those that DONT have faith in him will be saved, No! There is no chance of being saved outside of Jesus!
But remember we are judged accordingly to what we have been given, who are we to say that Gods grace does not extend to the unborn that are slaughtered or the severely mentally retarded or any one who has never had the chance to hear the words of truth. Will God judge them on a lack of faith if they never had a chance to hear the word of God to receive that faith?
We cannot answer this only God can. Will our loving God send the unborn that have been murdered into hell, because they never had the chance of knowing him?

Let’s look at the works Ephesians is talking about

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them.

[Ephesians then clearly shows these WORKS we should not boost of].

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the CIRCUMCISION in the flesh made by hands;

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition, the ceremonial law, that made the great feud, and was the badge of the Jews' peculiarity, called the partition-wall by way of allusion to the partition in the temple, which separated the court of the Gentiles from that into which the Jews only had liberty to enter.

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ORDINANCES; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

So we can clearly see that Eph 2:9 is NOT talking about good works.
Eph 2:10 says that we are created unto good works which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them. But just because one has faith in Jesus doesn’t mean they will walk in them, we have free will even when we have faith in him.
We can’t say that everyone with faith walks in all the ways which God has before ordained. This is why Jesus talks about those who are lukewarm
We can loose our salvation, if our WORKS became lukewarm Jesus says he will spew us out from him. YES those that where in him, he is speaking to the Church’s.
It’s not as simple as works that are hot or cold.

There are thousands of people who have faith in Jesus who do not walk how God has ordained them to. These people believe in Jesus they have faith that he will save them but they don’t have the faith plus works to accept the free gift of grace that along saves us.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Lets look at the next scripture that tries to prove that we are saved by faith alone, it says “without the deeds of the law” again you will clearly see that Romans is talking about the ceremonial law of the JEWS.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

The verse “a man is justified by faith”, does not pose a problem I believe we are saved “by faith” but “not by faith alone”.

It’s like trying to say we are justified by works only (see below), which we know is also not true.
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

The “deeds of the law” is talking about the ceremonial law i.e. circumcision for Jews this is clearly shown if you keep reading the next couple of verses. Rom 3:29, 30 and is also shown in the first verse of this same chapter (Rom 3:1)
As well as in Rom 2:25-29 which is leading up to chapter 3 and finishing of in Rom 4:9-12.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

It’s NOT talking about “good deeds” as below Rom 2:5 and Rom 2:6.
The same book of Romans show’s us how we will be judged.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

We know scripture teachers it is faith and good works that we are justified. Not one without the other it doesn’t matter even if you have faith that can move mountains you can’t escape Gods judgment. How does Jesus say he will judge us? Even those who say
“LORD, LORD”.
Matthew 7:21
NOT EVERY ONE who says to me, “LORD, LORD,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of my Father who is in heaven.

The only time the phrase “faith alone” appears in Scripture it is explicitly rejected as a means of justification (Jas. 2:24) nothing can change the fact that the formula faith alone goes directly against the language of Scripture.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

Faith alone cannot save you, this is why James makes it so clear.

Jam 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jam 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jam 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Faith is not Charity or Hope.
1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Faith is not Love.
I Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Scripture shows us what faith is and how we receive it.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It’s important to know that it is by faith we are made righteousness but it is by faith + works “confession” that we are justified. Righteousness a
nd justification are different. Faith makes us righteous but it is faith plus good works that makes us justified.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Faith is Faith. We can’t change its meaning to suit our beliefs. Without faith we cannot be saved but it is not by faith alone.

Jesus tells us not to marvel at the idea of Good works.

John 5:28-29
MARVEL NOT AT THIS: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why is it that people use scripture to try and justify that it is without the good works that we are saved by quoting Eph 2:9 or Rom 3:28 when it talks about the ceremonial law. And then on the other hand claim faith to have the same expression as charity.
Sorry but it doesn’t seem simple or scripturally accurate to belief in faith alone, but it seems simple to believe it is by faith and good works we are saved. Why say we are saved by faith alone if it is also by good works also.
Very sadly I belief the idea of faith alone has caused many a soul to be lost, people became contempt in the idea and do not seek the down trodden or do not seek to protect the innocent lives of the unborn (over 18000 killed every year just in NZ alone). What does God think about it? Should we be doing something about it?

Scripture speaks of individual aspects of salvation called redemption, forgiveness, sanctification, and justification. I just wanted to look at justification. “Faith alone” or “faith with good works (charity)”.

God Bless

“As the scripture says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

January 19, 2006 at 7:40 pm#19540

Participant

Good stuff scriptrure seeker,

alot of good points there, but we have to define “faith alone”. thus the term isn't even in the bible. Many protestant churches today define “faith alone” as just simply trusting or believing in Jesus. James 2:19 says that even the demons believe and shudder. so we see that simply trusting or believing that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't suffice. Let's look at Noah in Genesis chapter 6. God was disgusted with man but Noah found grace the eyes of the LORD. He came to Noah and told him what he was gonna do the mankind. He also told him to build an ark and promised to spare Noah, his wife, his sons and their wives, and the animals. Noah believed God (had faith)and did all that the LORD commanded him to do, Genesis 6:22. Now the question i've asked “faith alone” people is was building the ark a work or an act of faith? It was an act of faith, he believed God and believed that God would keep his promise so he built the ark by faith. How did he know God would keep his word? he believed or had faith!!! 2 Corinthians 5:7, Paul says that we walk by faith and not by sight. He also said that the just shall live by faith. In James chapter 2, James said, “show me your faith without deeds and I will show you my faith by what I do”. James is referring to expressions of faith not works. If he is referring to “works”, then he and Paul are in direct conflict with each other. Now those who are truly born again will produce good works. The good works will be a given if one is truly born again. Acts of faith are deeds that are done because of your faith, example water baptism. Works are deeds done apart from your faith, example giving to charity. Atheist and heathens give to charity, does that justify them?

just my 2 cents

Gods Blessings

January 21, 2006 at 11:33 pm#19541

Participant

Thanks for your kind comments, and I appreciate your objections.

“Faith alone” is “faith only”, and scripture rejects the idea of faith only. It does not only reject the idea but it also says it is by WORKS a man is justified. It doesn’t say by works only.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and not by FAITH ONLY.

So it is NOT by faith only or works only, it is faith + works. They have to abide in each other but they are not each other. This statement of faith + works people find hard because of the word work, James is meaning work that comes from Love. It is easier for people to understand it, if they think of it as Faith + Love that works.

I agree faith has to express itself through good works, just as good works has to express itself through faith, this doesn’t mean they are the same it means that they have to abide together in each other. Good works come from love.
Scripture tells us that we must abide in faith hope and charity, and the greatest is charity. This is because God is Love. The word love in 1Jo 4:8 (below) is the same word in Greek that is used for Charity, it is love that works.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Expressions can be made in many different ways, expressions of love can be made by faithfulness and expressions of love can be made as a sacrifice e.g. risking your life to save someone else’s life. The word sacrifice can have many of its own expressions, not all of them meaning love. These are expressions and only expressions they are not each other, and they are not the meanings of the words themselves. Faith meaning is to have confidence and belief and charity meaning is Love that aids and has kindness “good works with good will”.

The example of Noah is an example of faith and good works abiding in each other, but not faith alone. Did God say to Noah that if he had faith he would be saved? No, he said if he built an ark he would be saved. He had to have faith otherwise he wouldn’t built the ark but it wasn’t by faith alone, God required action from Noah, just as he requires action from us. If God doesn’t say it is by faith alone why should we?

Atheist and heathens that give to charity WON’T be saved, just as devils also believe, and tremble, they WON’T be saved. James gives this example to reject the idea of faith alone.

Confusion occurs by forgetting about the JEWS, Paul never condemns works of love but he clearly condemns “deeds of the law” or “works of the law” the works that JEWS try to justify themselves without Jesus. These ceremonial laws have been done away with and the JEWS can no longer boost. Paul rejects ceremonial works of the law because these works reject Jesus sacrifice. Jesus replaces circumcision with baptism and replaces the unblemished lamb sacrifices on the Passover with his perfect and unblemished sacrifice on the Passover.
This is why Paul stresses that it is without the works of the law we are justified. Paul only condemns the works of ceremonial laws, never works of love.
Paul agrees with James he acknowledges what is important he says it is faith which worketh by love. James says the same, “it is not by faith only”, saying this he acknowledges it is by faith also, but not without works of love.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither CIRCUMCISION availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE.

Paul also tells us that we are justified by works.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Phi 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

The world has lost the true meaning of the word Charity it is not just giving to the poor but it is giving with the deepest love in compassion, its loving our neighbor as ourselves, felling for them and showing that in our actions as Christ has shown his love in his actions.
I agree we must walk my faith and not by sight, but we must not forget about works of love.

1Co 16:14 Let all your things be done with CHARITY.

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on CHARITY, which is the bond of perfectness.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not CHARITY, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:8 CHARITY never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

The whole problem with the idea of faith only, is not only is it against the language of scripture but people start actually believing it. We can’t escape Jesus judgment with any amount of faith we need works of love as well. I believe people need to know about it, especially when much more is expected of us because we are in Christ.

God Bless

I’ve often thought, as Fulton Sheen wrote, that it is a terrible moment of loneliness. You have no advocates, you are there alone standing before God — and a terror will rip your soul like nothing you can imagine. But I really think that those in the pro-life movement will not be alone. I think there’ll be a chorus of voices that have never been heard in this world but are heard beautifully and clearly in the next world — and they will plead for everyone who has been in this movement. They will say to God, ‘Spare him, because he loved us,” — and God will look at you and say not, ‘Did you succeed?’ but ‘Did you try?’” Congressman Henry Hyde .

January 22, 2006 at 5:26 pm#19542

Participant

Greeting Brother Scripture Seeker,

First let me say that I love the healthy dialogue we have having on this subject. That is something that we need more of on this site. I read your responses and meditate on them. As I am a humble man, I will admit that I don't know everything. I remain teachable as I have been corrected in the past. I think we are getting hung up on words. I DO NOT BELEIVE FAITH MEANS SIMPLY BELIEVING OR TRUSTING. I believe faith goes much deeper than that. In the case of Noah, he believed God and built the ark by faith, Hebrews 11:7. In Fact the 11th chapter of Hebrews deals with faith. It is known as the HALL OF FAITH. It tells of that “By Faith” these individuals did things. Again I say that the true saving faith will work. The works of love will be a given. 1 John 4:7-8 says that God is Love. And that anyone who does not love does not know God. If you have been born again from above, you are a child of God. If you are a child of God you know God. If you know God YOU WILL LOVE.

Grace unto you from God, the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

January 23, 2006 at 12:26 am#19543

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 21 2006,18:33)

Thanks for your kind comments, and I appreciate your objections.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that BY WORKS a man is justified, and not by FAITH ONLY.

1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Atheist and heathens that give to charity WON’T be saved, just as devils also believe, and tremble, they WON’T be saved. James gives this example to reject the idea of faith alone.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither CIRCUMCISION availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but FAITH WHICH WORKETH BY LOVE.

Paul also tells us that we are justified by works.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Phi 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

1Co 16:14 Let all your things be done with CHARITY.

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on CHARITY, which is the bond of perfectness.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not CHARITY, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

1Co 13:8 CHARITY never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

God Bless

The Bible is clear in Ephesians of the order ” For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Notice the text by faith, and not of works, but after we are saved then comes the works (vs 10). James makes the same point. It is not a contradiction. James says that if our faith is genuine it will be proven by what we do. Today many claim to have faith in God and yet live no different. True salvation is by faith, and good works follow true faith. Anything else would contradict Eph.2:9 which says NOT OF WORKS.

January 23, 2006 at 12:42 am#19544

Participant

Quote (Woutlaw @ Jan. 22 2006,12:26)

Greeting Brother Scripture Seeker,

Grace unto you from God, the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ

That's exactly correct. Many use faith today as just a word. Okay they say I have faith, but the Bible points out that if We truley believe something our belief will be manifested in what we do.

January 23, 2006 at 5:45 am#19545

Participant

Yes sir brother Sultan,

People throw around the word “faith” just like they throw around the word “love”. How do you know someone loves you? you will see it. How do you know someone genuinely has faith? you will see it. Jesus said, “you will know them by their fruits”.

Gods blesssings

January 25, 2006 at 8:43 pm#19546

Participant

Woutlaw, Brother, you have made this dialogue really great, and I thank you. Your humbleness shows your greatness. Mat 5:5, Luk 14:11.

Sorry I haven’t replied earlier I have been away from home for the last few days.

Hebrews tells us that it is by faith to be sure of the things we hoped for and gives many examples, including Abraham and Rahab. Please note James who was also inspired by the Holy Spirit takes these examples and explains that it was not by faith only but was by works as well, and sums up the whole idea of the concept of faith alone by saying “IT IS NOT BY FAITH ONLY”. Scripture rejects the idea. It doesn’t matter what we think the true meaning of faith alone is, what matters is what God thinks it means. Paul himself who wrote Hebrews rejects the idea of faith only, he even says even if we have ALL FAITH and can remove mountains and speak in tongues with angles etc we are nothing without Charity “love that worketh”.

The Word of God is what gives us Love and Faith. It is how we know God. It doesn’t matter how much faith we have, we still need to study his word to know him. It is the word of God that gives us the fruits of the spirit. Jesus gives us these fruits from the spirit because Jesus is the Word of God.

Sultan, thanks for your objections but please make sure you read the previous post first before making comment. As I have already shown using scripture that the “works” that Paul is talking about in Ephesians is the works of the ceremonial law these works reject JESUS sacrifice (please read my second post).

No amount of faith or charity can earn us our salvation it is a free gift from God and God alone. ONLY JESUS can pay that price. Jesus gives us this free gift but he does require us to have Faith + Love that worketh to accept this free gift.

If you still think he is excluding “love that works” [Charity], why do you not believe he would not be excluding “faith that works” as well?

If you think it is because faith is outside the law?
Is Charity not a fruit of the spirit and outside the LAW, just as faith is?

Gal 5:22 But the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is LOVE, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.

Some bibles translate the above word love as charity because it is exactly the same word, its not just love defined as (G25). It’s love that worketh, it’s the greatest fruit of the spirit and is known as ag-ah'-pay (G26)

If you still think we are justified by faith alone PLEASE explain truthfully the following scriptures.
Remember Charity comes from the word of God just as faith does and scripture never says that Faith is Charity it only says they should abide together.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

“Faith alone” is Faith only” and the only time the phrase “faith only” appears in Scripture it is explicitly rejected as a means of justification nothing can change the fact that the formula faith alone goes directly against the language of Scripture.
It doesn’t matter how complete or true that faith may be, if it is just faith only.

PAUL SPEAKING

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.
These aren’t works of the law they are works of love

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Remember Paul says “do all things in Charity”, just as he says live by faith and not by sight.

Phi 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men AND OF ANGELS, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have ALL FAITH, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Can you have more faith than ALL FAITH? Does ALL FAITH not include TRUE FAITH?
Also looks like Charity needs to be included here? Why would we want to exclude it when Paul doesn’t?

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is CHARITY.
Why would we exclude Charity when it’s the greatest fruit of the spirit even greater than faith?

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on CHARITY, which is the bond of perfectness.
ABOVE ALL THINGS, why exclude it?

1Co 16:14 Let all your things be done with CHARITY.
All works are to be done in Charity!

Paul clearly does not believe in the idea of Faith Alone.

But lets see what JESUS our Lord and our God says.

Mat 7:22 MANY will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? and IN THY NAME have CAST OUT DEVILS? and IN THY NAME DONE MANY WONDERFUL WORKS?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus says that even those that have enough faith to cast out Devils WONT be saved,
How many people do you know that can do these wonders?
We clearly need Charity as well!

What does he say to those who Charity is lukewarm?

Rev 3:13 HE THAT HATH AN EAR, LET HIM HEAR what the Spirit saith unto the CHURCHES.
Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I KNOW THY WORKS, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Jesus also indicates that these people are from the Church and are in him. But says he will spue them out, not because of there lack of faith but because of there lack of WORKS.
These people are the ones that have NOT followed all the paths that God has ordained that they SHOULD follow.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

What does Jesus say about good works [Charity]?

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 MARVEL NOT AT THIS: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have ETERNAL LIFE?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF.

Jesus makes himself very clear.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Are we really justified without Charity?
If we are also justified by Charity why not say it? Why do people hold back from admitting that it is also by good works we are saved?

This is not all the scripture to show the importance of including love that works but I have covered the main points.
Brothers please don’t get the
wrong idea true faith is awesome and we can’t be saved without it. But please let’s not bend its meaning to suit our own beliefs.

Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so GREAT FAITH, NO, NOT IN ISRAEL.

May God the Father Son and Holy Spirit Bless and protect you and never let you be parted from him.

We are nothing without him.

January 25, 2006 at 9:55 pm#19547

Participant

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ Jan. 25 2006,15:43)

Woutlaw, Brother, you have made this dialogue really great, and I thank you. Your humbleness shows your greatness. Mat 5:5, Luk 14:11.

Sorry I haven’t replied earlier I have been away from home for the last few days.

If you still think he is excluding “love that works” [Charity], why do you not believe he would not be excluding “faith that works” as well?

If you think it is because faith is outside the law?
Is Charity not a fruit of the spirit and outside the LAW, just as faith is?

Gal 5:22 But the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is LOVE, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, FAITH,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: AGAINST SUCH THERE IS NO LAW.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

PAUL SPEAKING

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.
These aren’t works of the law they are works of love

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Remember Paul says “do all things in Charity”, just as he says live by faith and not by sight.

Phi 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION with fear and trembling.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is CHARITY.
Why would we exclude Charity when it’s the greatest fruit of the spirit even greater than faith?

Col 3:14 And above all these things put on CHARITY, which is the bond of perfectness.
ABOVE ALL THINGS, why exclude it?

1Co 16:14 Let all your things be done with CHARITY.
All works are to be done in Charity!

Paul clearly does not believe in the idea of Faith Alone.

But lets see what JESUS our Lord and our God says.

Jesus says that even those that have enough faith to cast out Devils WONT be saved,
How many people do you know that can do these wonders?
We clearly need Charity as well!

What does he say to those who Charity is lukewarm?

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

What does Jesus say about good works [Charity]?

Jesus makes himself very clear.

Are we really justified without Charity?
If we are also justified by Charity why not say it? Why do
people hold back from admitting that it is also by good works we are saved?

This is not all the scripture to show the importance of including love that works but I have covered the main points.
Brothers please don’t get the wrong idea true faith is awesome and we can’t be saved without it. But please let’s not bend its meaning to suit our own beliefs.

May God the Father Son and Holy Spirit Bless and protect you and never let you be parted from him.

We are nothing without him.

Quote

I thoroughly read your post, and still show from the Word of God that it is not by works,but by faith (Eph.2:8-10), then the works confirm the faith to be genuine. Secondly Pauls arguement in Corinthians is not against faith. That is not even the context. Next you will be saying that Paul spoke with the tongues of angels. Right? Thirdly and most importantly Eph. 2:10 has no context for ceremonial law. ” For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we”
Notice the context. We, who is the We. those created in CHRIST JESUS. Do you believe thatall scripture is inspired by God?
I ask because you keep saying Paul, as if it is his personal opinion. Yet the Bible says,” knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Pet.1:20-21

January 25, 2006 at 10:02 pm#19548

Participant

scripture seeker,
Are you trying to say that genuine faith will be shown in what is done. If so I agree. My point is simple. We are not saved by works of the law or works of love ( a murderer wihtout faith in God could still feed the hungry,etc.). We are saved by faith in Jesus and what He has done, but if we truley have faith in Jesus it will be manifested by what we do. because faith in Jesus changes us into new creatures who do new things i.e the good works spoken of in eph.2:10 or the love spoken of in 1 Cor 13, and other passages.

January 28, 2006 at 10:55 pm#19549

Participant

Sultan,
I found your first response from your last two posts insulting. I only hope that your comments are genuine.
My last response after quoting Hebrews, I said “James who was ALSO inspired by the Holy Spirit”.
After making these comments do you think I believe Paul was not inspired?
The reason why I emphasize Paul was to show that the Holy Spirit who used him not only to show the greatness of Faith, but also the greatness of Charity.
Paul even says that if we have ALL FAITH, [think about that word]
“ALL FAITH” mean’s not lacking any amount of faith. If you have All FAITH you have TRUE FAITH.
If you still don’t believe that all faith means true faith, does Jesus have true power when he says, “ALL power has been given unto me”.

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

I would also like to see someone remove a mountain without true faith, if you haven’t got true faith, there is no way you could remove a mountain. Unless you have access to nuclear weapons
Paul rejects the idea, that all faith/true faith is all you need. Being Inspired by the Holy Spirit he says it is useless without Charity.

We are saved by our works of love and faith that comes from God. Charity’s a fruit of the Spirit just as faith is a fruit of the spirit. There are no laws against fruits of the spirit and we need both fruits to be saved.

Do you believe in faith alone because you think faith brings initial gifts and fruits of the spirit, which include Charity?
This idea is not correct because HOPE brings the gifts and fruits of the Holy Ghost.
Anyway this would be only an initial stage and as faith is not charity and is it’s own fruit you still need to keep working with the gifts of the Spirit to continue to bear good fruit from the Spirit.

You asked me what I believe so I will try and explain. I will try and keep to the aspect of Justification and not the other aspects of salvation.

The Word of God comes from Jesus, without it we have NO HOPE.

Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having NO HOPE, and without God in the world:

The Word of God that Jesus leaves, becomes our HOPE that is stored up for us in heaven
If we have HOPE on his word we receive the gifts of the Spirit and then these became the fruits of the Spirit.

Col 1:5 For the HOPE which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth FORTH FRUIT, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

It is by this hope that we receive the gifts of the spirit, then those gifts of the Spirit produce the fruits of the Spirit within us.
There are 6 or 7 gifts of the spirit depending on the Bible translation. The seven are
Wisdom, Understanding, Counsel, Fortitude, Knowledge, Piety, Fear of the Lord.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

The gifts of the Spirit teach us wisdom, knowledge and understanding… these gifts allow us to learn of the true nature of God, who is real and totally true and who is Love that never stops working for all goodness [faith and love]. It is by learning from these Gifts of the Holy Spirit we then develop the FRUITS of the Holy Spirit within us.

There are 9 or 11 fruits of the spirit depending on the Bible translation.
The eleven are Charity, Joy, Peace, Patience, Benignity, Goodness, Longanimity, Mildness, Faith, Modesty, Continency, and Chastity.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: AGAINST SUCH there is NO LAW.

Notice hope is not listed as a fruit. Hope is still from grace and comes from the Word of God, by the hope of what Jesus has already done. This is how we receive Gifts that develop into Fruits of the spirit.

We can’t even truly say Jesus is the Lord, we need the Holy Spirit. This is why the grace of hope is first.

1Co 12:3 Wherefore I GIVE YOU TO UNDERSTAND, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that NO MAN can say that JESUS IS THE LORD, but by the Holy Ghost.

This is why faith hope and charity are so important, and are known as the Theological Virtues.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is CHARITY.

The Theological Virtues are called such because they are supernatural in origin, relate immediately to God, and can only be gained through His GRACE.
Without Grace there is NO TRUE Hope, NO TRUE Love and NO TRUE Faith.

1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of FAITH and LOVE; and for an helmet, the HOPE of salvation.

Love comes from Hope
Rom 5:5 And HOPE maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Faith comes from Hope
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the HOPE of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

HOPE is often over looked or not even thought of. It is truly a grace from the Word of God.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and HOPE to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life.

Lam 3:26 It is good that a man should both HOPE and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one HOPE of your calling;
Remember, many are called but few are chosen.
God comes so we may receive the adoption through his grace and become sons of God.

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:24 For we are SAVED by HOPE: but HOPE that is seen is not HOPE: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet HOPE for?
Rom 8:25 But if we HOPE for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

We are justified by grace alone and not faith alone.
Jesus gives us this free gift of grace by the fruits of grace we have received.
He judges us on our fruits of grace, both Faith and Love that worketh.
If you don’t have Charity the greatest fruit of grace you can’t be saved because you have not received his free gift of grace fully.
We have to allow his free gift of Charity to work in us and by this it will show other people that we are not our own but are his. If your grace of Charity alone becomes lukewarm he will spew you out of his month.
There are many many times that Jesus says he will judge us by our works of love this is why we are judged by faith plus works of lo
ve. If you don’t believe it please let me know how you understand the list of scriptures from my last post where I asked you to explain.

God Bless

March 31, 2006 at 9:54 am#19550

Participant

The First lie that Satan used to split the Church,

The lie we are saved by faith alone, to make people think that we are saved without the fruit of love. The greatest fruit of the spirit.

Those who think they can HOLD the LORD to ransom because they have faith in him better think again.

It is by GRACE ALONE.

Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and NOT BY FAITH ONLY.

“Faith alone” is Faith only” and the only time the phrase “faith only” appears in Scripture it is explicitly rejected as a means of justification nothing can change the fact that the formula faith alone goes directly against the language of Scripture.
The SAME Greek word for ALONE is the same Greek word for ONLY.

Now if that’s not enough check out the time the word ALL FAITH is used in the Bible!

Thats Right ALL THE FAITH in the world can't save you.
Only Grace can.

That’s right friends MANY will be lost by the First lie that many based there man made Churches on.

“CANON I. – If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema” (which means “out of the church”).

The teaching that we are not saved by grace is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned by the Church in the 2nd Council of Orange, in 529 AD.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church says “Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favour, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life” (#1996).

God Bless

March 31, 2006 at 8:16 pm#19551

NickHassan

Participant

Hi SS,
The only works that can save you is those done to the brothers of Christ shown when you are resurrected in the second resurrection.
Otherwise
You must be born again.
You must enter through the gate of Jesus.
You must find salvation in the Son of God.
Eternal life is in him

“Come out of her my people lest you suffer for her sins”

April 1, 2006 at 1:11 am#19552

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2006,20:16)

“Come out of her my people lest you suffer for her sins”

True Jesus is the Gate but he is also the LORD.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, BOTH LORD AND CHRIST.
THAT’S RIGHT AS ABOVE HE IS BOTH LORD AND MESSIAH

This is where some man made faiths fail.

Joh 1:41 He findeth first his brother Simon and saith to him: We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

THE LORD IS GOD BECAUSE THERE IS ONLY ONE TRUE LORD

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is ONE LORD:

Yes there is only one TRUE LORD he is the LORD OF LORDS.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

The father is in him and he is in the father they are one in the same essence. THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD!

Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: FOR THERE IS ONE GOD; AND THERE IS NONE OTHER BUT HE:

What was Jesus reply to him?

You Quote

Come out of her my people

OK I have seen many times this one liner has been used!

What do you think the Holy Spirit was talking about here!

Who are known as Gods chosen people and are often called his people? ARE THEY STILL IN HER, those that are still waiting for the Christ to come? Those that reject Jesus as the Christ.

1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the MEMBERS OF AN HARLOT? God forbid.

God Bless

April 1, 2006 at 2:22 am#19553

NickHassan

Participant

Hi SS,
Scripture says Jesus has a God.
Jn 20.17
“..I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God”
If Jesus is our God who is His God in an equal trinity?

April 1, 2006 at 2:53 am#19554

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2006,02:22)

Hi SS,
Scripture says Jesus has a God.
Jn 20.17
“..I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God”
If Jesus is our God who is His God in an equal trinity?

right on Nick,

Scripture Seeker,

My friend, The word LORD refers to the Hebrew word Yehovah, The self exsisting one, Jehovah God

3068 Yhovah yeh-ho-vaw' from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:–Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069. see HEBREW for 01961 see HEBREW for 03050 see HEBREW for 03069

Jesus is our Lord not LORD.

To prove this look at Psalm 100:1, The LORD said to my Lord, sit at My right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet. The Hebrew words for LORD and Lord are different. Two different words to discribe two different distinct beings. The LORD being the Father, and the Lord being The Son.

April 1, 2006 at 2:57 am#19555