SCRIPTURAL COMMON SENSE Vs CONFUSION

[Cubes]

Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Does the invisible God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ have a mother, sister and brother? If so where can we find that information?

[Cubes]

Double Standard:

Jhn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

How is it that Trinitarians uphold the above verse to be unreservedly true in proving that Jesus is the eternal God but the same does not hold true when Jesus says it of his God?

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

[Cubes]

John 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.

[Cubes]

Put another way: Several comparative scriptures of YHWH our God and Father in relationship to Yeshua, our Lord who redeems us to God.

1Ch 29:10 Wherefore David blessed YHWH before all the congregation: and David said, Blessed [be] thou, LORD God of Israel our father, for ever and ever.

2Cr 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

[Cubes]

Duplicate post deleted

[Cubes]

If three persons are one being who make up The Lord God Almighty, what happened to this configuration here and why isn't Jesus counted as part of God here?  Did he cease to be YHWH while on earth then because he laid aside his glory, if so, was God complete in a 2/3 configuration?  If so, doesn't that also show that the 2/3 can be God without Jesus or was God incomplete with Jesus being on earth and becoming a man? And if so, how does that affect the scripture below and the general understanding presented to us in scripture?

t8, we need the smilies with the head scratching!

Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Scriptural common sense verse confusion. How many here use the NW translation? Cause those people are the only people who can argue against the Trinity. NIV, NASB, KJV, Amplified, NLT, etc. all have scripture pointing to the doctrine of the trinity. Even that is iffy for them. And yes, the doctrine of the Trinity may not have been preached by the early apostles. Why do you ask?
Cause God uses progressive revelation to reveal himself. Just like you know more about God now, then when you first became a christian. Now progressive revelation is more so on a grander scale like through-out church history. What we experience is more like personal(progressive) revelation. I mean imagine if God revealed himself all at once to us. We would explode, ecspecially if we tried to wrap our mind around just one attribute of God. I mean there would be brain matter everywhere.
But knowing what we know now, and then seeing more and more how things are possible in the scripture. I mean if no one has seen the Father, then who did Adam walk with, or Enoch, or Noah? Who did Moses see in the burning bush? Who was David's Lord? And so much more. Jesus says in John 5:46 that Moses wrote about him. Wait if Jesus isn't God and we know for a fact that Moses wrote only about God Almighty, then where does Jesus fit in. We know that Moses has been accreditted for the first Five books of the Bible. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deutoronomy.
Genesis 17:1
WHEN ABRAM was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, I am the Almighty God; walk and live habitually before Me and be perfect (blameless, wholehearted, complete).

Genesis 28:3
May God Almighty bless you and make you fruitful and multiply you until you become a group of peoples.

Genesis 35:11
And God said to him, I am God Almighty. Be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall come from you and kings shall be born of your stock;

Genesis 43:14
May God Almighty give you mercy and favor before the man, that he may release to you your other brother and Benjamin. If I am bereaved [of my sons], I am bereaved.

Genesis 48:3
And Jacob said to Joseph, God Almighty appeared to me at Luz [Bethel] in the land of Canaan and blessed me

Genesis 49:25
By the God of your father, Who will help you, and by the Almighty, Who will bless you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings lying in the deep beneath, blessings of the breasts and of the womb.

Exodus 6:3
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as God Almighty [El-Shaddai], but by My [See footnote on Exod. 3:15.] name the Lord [Yahweh–the redemptive name of God] I did not make Myself known to them [in acts and great miracles]. [Gen 17:1 ]

Numbers 24:4
He [Balaam] who hears the words of God, who sees the vision of the Almighty, falling down, but having his eyes open and uncovered, he says:

Numbers 24:16
He speaks, who heard the words of God and knew the knowledge of the Most High, who saw the vision of the Almighty, falling down, but having his eyes open and uncovered:

Not only that but Revelation 1 states that Jesus Christ is God Almighty. He is The Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, First and Last. Now how can Jesus be First If the Father is First? How can Jesus be the Alpha and The Father be the Alpha? and etc. How? Now if Jesus was both man and God, that would work. The man Jesus was a mortal example, where as the Word(The Logos in Greek) was God then that would work.
Don't try to put God in a box and think you can figure him out. Look into Job 11:7.

[david]

Quote

And yes, the doctrine of the Trinity may not have been preached by the early apostles. Why do you ask?

I'll just keep believing what the early apostles believed and preached.
I think that's safer than putting my trust in people who lived hundreds of years later. And here's why:

2 THESSALONIANS 2:3
“Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction.”

2 THESSALONIANS 2:7
“True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work; but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way.”
(The apostles were acting as a restraint, holding back the tide of apostasy. With them removed, the apostasy would be ready to break out and would no longer really be a mystery.)

2 THESSALONIANS 2:9
“But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents”

ACTS 20:27-30
“I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among YOU and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among YOU yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
(When did Paul 'go away'?–because this is when men from “among you,” the congregation itself, would speak twisted things.)

1 TIMOTHY 4:1-3
“However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons.”

2 TIMOTHY 4:3-4
“For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.”

2 PETER 2:1-3
“However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. Furthermore, many will follow their acts of loose conduct, and on account of these the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively. Also, with covetousness they will exploit YOU with counterfeit words.”

JUDE 3-4
“Beloved ones, though I was making every effort to write YOU about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write YOU to exhort YOU to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. My reason is that certain men have slipped in who have long ago been appointed by the Scriptures to this judgment, ungodly men, turning the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for loose conduct and proving false to our only Owner and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

MATTHEW 13:24-30
“Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’””
MATTHEW 13:36-37
“Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man;”

2 PETER 3:15-17
“Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, speaking about these things as he does also in all [his] letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as [they do] also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. YOU, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on YOUR guard that YOU may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from YOUR own steadfastness.”

MATTHEW 7:15-16
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to YOU in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?”
MATTHEW 7:21-23
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”

SCRIPTURAL COMMON SENSE VERSES CONFUSION.
Where the apostles confused? Was Jesus confused? They seem to say nothing about the trinity. They are only said to hint at it and you have to connect many scriptures to come up with the “mystery” of the unexplainable trinity.
Sounds confusing.

[Cubes]

Confusion:

According to the Trinity Doctrine:

Person #1 is YHWH
Person #2 is YHWH
Person #3 is YHWH

Ok.  Why do we have to have person #2 ask person #1 to send person #3 when they are the same person anyway!

Why can't we just ask anyone of them to come and have HIM show up?  Why the relay of the same person?  Relay of one between ONE?  Hmmm…. I think not.  

How about the scriptural version?  

The Father is the giver of his own spirit to those born into his family, to those who obey him.  By this He becomes our Father and Jesus our firstborn brother.
Jesus is the mediator whom the father has appointed to stand between himself and us.  Jesus the only begotten Son of the Father, YHWH.

Thus Person # 1 is YHWH.  The Spirit is his to give and his in origin.  
Person #2 is the Son of YHWH, Jesus Christ.  He has been appointed by his Father and God to mediate for us.  He asks the Father to send us His spirit and is able to breathe on the apostles to impart the Spirit, and the apostles are able to lay hands on others and impart the same spirit, as hopefully we can and shall if we believe and obey being one in Christ and with the Father.  Hallelujah!

[NickHassan]

Hi Is 1.18,
Scripture says God sent His only begotten Son into the world [1Jn 4.9]. So he was a son before he partook of flesh. He was filled with the Spirit of his Father, the Holy Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ. The Spirit is one and one with Christ and God.

[malcolm ferris]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 04 2006,21:01)

Quote I believe that by his own spirit he created and/or begat Yeshua, his only begotten son. Hi Cubes, Just for clarification, do you believe that Yahshua was “begotten” at the time of His earthly conception?

Hebrews 1 tells us that at some point God declared
“You are My Son, today I have begotten you.
This would be the origin of the Son of God.

It contiunues –
And again, when he brings the firstbeggoten into the world…

Letting us know that the one that was concieved in the virgin womb of Mary was already the only begotten son from a previous declaration made (presumably) in Heaven.

[NickHassan]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 29 2006,23:22)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 04 2006,21:01) Quote I believe that by his own spirit he created and/or begat Yeshua, his only begotten son. Hi Cubes, Just for clarification, do you believe that Yahshua was “begotten” at the time of His earthly conception? Hebrews 1 tells us that at some point God declared “You are My Son, today I have begotten you. This would be the origin of the Son of God. It contiunues – And again, when he brings the firstbeggoten into the world… Letting us know that the one that was concieved in the virgin womb of Mary was already the only begotten son from a previous declaration made (presumably) in Heaven.

Quite so Malcolm,
I have never thought of that but Hebrews puts Psalm 2 in context and tells us the Son of God was begotten before he came into the world.
The parable of the vinegrower also shows us the Son was sent into the world again confirming he already was a son before he descended from heaven and partook of flesh.

[Is 1:18]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 29 2006,23:22)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 04 2006,21:01) Quote I believe that by his own spirit he created and/or begat Yeshua, his only begotten son. Hi Cubes, Just for clarification, do you believe that Yahshua was “begotten” at the time of His earthly conception? Hebrews 1 tells us that at some point God declared “You are My Son, today I have begotten you. This would be the origin of the Son of God. It contiunues – And again, when he brings the firstbeggoten into the world… Letting us know that the one that was concieved in the virgin womb of Mary was already the only begotten son from a previous declaration made (presumably) in Heaven.

Hi Malcolm
I think we both know that prōtotokos can, and frequently does, denote something other than reproductive generation. Afterall Yahshua is “firstborn (prōtotokos) of the dead” in Rev 1:5. What could this possibly mean if firstborn, without exception, always referred to first birthed? If we investigate OT applications of this title we also discover that Israel is God's firstborn (Ex 4:22) as is David, the YOUNGEST or LAST BORN of Jesse (Psa 89:27). In these instances the title is used to signify pre-eminence or uniqueness.

Here is the Hebrews passage

HEBREWS 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father [future tense], and he shall be to me a Son? [future tense] 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Note; these are words that are directly spoken to Yahshua by the Ancient of Days. If accept that the Psa 2:7 quote was addressed to the Son then you must also accept that the following words were also. If He (AOD) tells Him that He “will be” a Father to Him and the Word “shall be” a Son, how then can he already be a Son? If Psa 2:7 was being used as a reference to the eternal begettal it doesn’t fit contextually within this passage.

Here is how Paul understood Psa 2:7:

ACTS 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

He associated Psa 2:7 with the Resurrection. Therefore, to me it is conclusive that, at least in the mind of Paul, this messianic verse in Psalms was not a reference to a pre-incarnation birth event. Outside of Heb 1:5, this is the only other time in the NT that the verse is quoted and in both cases an eternal begattal of the Son in definately not in view.

Paul, in Rom 1:4, said he was “declared” (From G3725; that is, [figuratively] to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain.) to be the Son of God. And again he associated the 'Sonship' of Christ with the resurrection:

ROMANS 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

The angel Gabriel linked the Sonship with the incarnation:

35Andtheangelansweredandsaiduntoher,TheHolyGhostshallcomeuponthee,andthepoweroftheHighestshallovershadowthee:thereforealsothatholythingwhichshallbebornoftheeshallbecalledtheSonof/>LUKE1/>35Theangelansweredandsaidtoher,“TheHolySpiritwillcomeuponyou,andthepoweroftheMostHighwillovershadowyou;andforthatreasontheholyChildshallbecalledtheSonof/>LUKE1/>35Theangelanswered,“TheHolySpiritwillcomeuponyou,andthepoweroftheMostHighwillovershadowyou.SotheholyonetobebornwillbecalledtheSonofGod.[/color class="bbcode-color">

The implication here is that He, Yahshua, was called the Son of God as a consequence of His earthly birth. Why would he be called the Son of God IF He already WAS the Son of God? Doesn't make sense. Add to this the biblical data attesting to the eternality of Christ and it appears conclusive to me that the title “Son of God” has nothing to do with a biblically-undescribed pre-incarnation begettal and everything to do with His earthly existence. Thats is, if we are prepared to ignore our pre-suppositions about what the title “son of God” means and let the Bible speak on this matter.

Furthermore, if you examine the prologue of John's Gospel you will see that there is no mention of the word “Son” until vs 18! This is fully four verses after the incarnation is mentioned. He was designated the “Word” up until then:

JOHN 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Anyway, just wanted to make those points before I take a break from this forum. Take care all.

[Is 1:18]

Edited for clarity:

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 29 2006,23:22)

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 04 2006,21:01) Quote I believe that by his own spirit he created and/or begat Yeshua, his only begotten son. Hi Cubes, Just for clarification, do you believe that Yahshua was “begotten” at the time of His earthly conception? Hebrews 1 tells us that at some point God declared “You are My Son, today I have begotten you. This would be the origin of the Son of God. It contiunues – And again, when he brings the firstbeggoten into the world… Letting us know that the one that was concieved in the virgin womb of Mary was already the only begotten son from a previous declaration made (presumably) in Heaven.

Hi Malcolm
I think we both know that prōtotokos can, and frequently does, denote something other than reproductive generation. Afterall Yahshua is “firstborn (prōtotokos) of the dead” in Rev 1:5. What could this possibly mean if firstborn, without exception, always referred to first birthed? If we investigate OT applications of this title we also discover that Israel is God's firstborn (Ex 4:22) as is David, the YOUNGEST or LAST BORN of Jesse (Psa 89:27). In these instances the title is used to signify pre-eminence or uniqueness.

Here is the Hebrews passage

HEBREWS 1
5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father [future tense], and he shall be to me a Son? [future tense] 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Note; these are words that are directly spoken to Yahshua by the Ancient of Days. If accept that the Psa 2:7 quote was addressed to the Son then you must also accept that the following words were also. If He (AOD) tells Him that He “will be” a Father to Him and the Word “shall be” a Son, how then can he already be a Son? If Psa 2:7 was being used as a reference to the eternal begettal it doesn’t fit contextually within this passage.

Here is how Paul understood Psa 2:7:

ACTS 13:33
God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

He associated Psa 2:7 with the Resurrection. Therefore, to me it is conclusive that, at least in the mind of Paul, this messianic verse in Psalms was not a reference to a pre-incarnation birth event. Outside of Heb 1:5, this is the only other time in the NT that the verse is quoted and in both cases an eternal begattal of the Son in definately not in view.

Paul, in Rom 1:4, said he was “declared” (From G3725; that is, [figuratively] to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain.) to be the Son of God. And again he associated the 'Sonship' of Christ with the resurrection:

ROMANS 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

The angel Gabriel linked the Sonship with the incarnation:

LUKE 1 (KJV)
35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

LUKE 1 (NASB)
35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

LUKE 1 (NIV)
35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

The implication here is that He, Yahshua, was called the Son of God as a consequence of His earthly birth. Why would he be called the Son of God IF He already WAS the Son of God? Doesn't make sense. Add to this the biblical data attesting to the eternality of Christ and it appears conclusive to me that the title “Son of God” has nothing to do with a biblically-undescribed pre-incarnation begettal and everything to do with His earthly existence. Thats is, if we are prepared to ignore our pre-suppositions about what the title “son of God” means and let the Bible speak on this matter.

Furthermore, if you examine the prologue of John's Gospel you will see that there is no mention of the word “Son” until vs 18! This is fully four verses after the incarnation is mentioned. He was designated the “Word” up until then:

JOHN 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Anyway, just wanted to make those points before I take a break from this forum. Take care all.

[NickHassan]

Hi Is.1.18,
Scripture says in 1Jn 4.9f
“By this the love of God was manifested, that God has sent His only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD so that we might live through him?…..God has sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins…And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent His Son to be the saviour of the World”

How do you read the sending of the Son of God into the world?
How can a son be sent into the world  and not yet not be a son when he was sent- from outside the world?
Was he a human son when he was sent into the world?
Where does scripture show this?
“Only begotten” is unrelated to the word “begotten” in greek and yet you seem to use them as equivalents?
Was he the “only begotten” son from his conception in Mary? [Ps 2 shows that his origin as Son of God was from God alone surely as does Jn 8.42?]
Was Mary not his real mother then and he was not a real son of God?
The parable of the vinegrower has the Father sending his son to the vineyard. Was he not a son when he was sent?

[NickHassan]

Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 31 2006,03:18)

Edited for clarity: Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 29 2006,23:22) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 04 2006,21:01) Quote I believe that by his own spirit he created and/or begat Yeshua, his only begotten son. Hi Cubes, Just for clarification, do you believe that Yahshua was “begotten” at the time of His earthly conception? Hebrews 1 tells us that at some point God declared “You are My Son, today I have begotten you. This would be the origin of the Son of God. It contiunues – And again, when he brings the firstbeggoten into the world… Letting us know that the one that was concieved in the virgin womb of Mary was already the only begotten son from a previous declaration made (presumably) in Heaven. Hi Malcolm I think we both know that prōtotokos can, and frequently does, denote something other than reproductive generation. Afterall Yahshua is “firstborn (prōtotokos) of the dead” in Rev 1:5. What could this possibly mean if firstborn, without exception, always referred to first birthed? If we investigate OT applications of this title we also discover that Israel is God's firstborn (Ex 4:22) as is David, the YOUNGEST or LAST BORN of Jesse (Psa 89:27). In these instances the title is used to signify pre-eminence or uniqueness. Here is the Hebrews passage HEBREWS 1 5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father [future tense], and he shall be to me a Son? [future tense] 6And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Note; these are words that are directly spoken to Yahshua by the Ancient of Days. If accept that the Psa 2:7 quote was addressed to the Son then you must also accept that the following words were also. If He (AOD) tells Him that He “will be” a Father to Him and the Word “shall be” a Son, how then can he already be a Son? If Psa 2:7 was being used as a reference to the eternal begettal it doesn’t fit contextually within this passage. Here is how Paul understood Psa 2:7: ACTS 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. He associated Psa 2:7 with the Resurrection. Therefore, to me it is conclusive that, at least in the mind of Paul, this messianic verse in Psalms was not a reference to a pre-incarnation birth event. Outside of Heb 1:5, this is the only other time in the NT that the verse is quoted and in both cases an eternal begattal of the Son in definately not in view. Paul, in Rom 1:4, said he was “declared” (From G3725; that is, [figuratively] to appoint, decree, specify: – declare, determine, limit, ordain.) to be the Son of God. And again he associated the 'Sonship' of Christ with the resurrection: ROMANS 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. The angel Gabriel linked the Sonship with the incarnation: LUKE 1 (KJV) 35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. LUKE 1 (NASB) 35The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God. LUKE 1 (NIV) 35The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. The implication here is that He, Yahshua, was called the Son of God as a consequence of His earthly birth. Why would he be called the Son of God IF He already WAS the Son of God? Doesn't make sense. Add to this the biblical data attesting to the eternality of Christ and it appears conclusive to me that the title “Son of God” has nothing to do with a biblically-undescribed pre-incarnation begettal and everything to do with His earthly existence. Thats is, if we are prepared to ignore our pre-suppositions about what the title “son of God” means and let the Bible speak on this matter. Furthermore, if you examine the prologue of John's Gospel you will see that there is no mention of the word “Son” until vs 18! This is fully four verses after the incarnation is mentioned. He was designated the “Word” up until then: JOHN 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.18No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. Anyway, just wanted to make those points before I take a break from this forum. Take care all.

Hi Is 1.18
As I read the verses in Hebrews the verse from 2Sam 7
“I will be a father to him and he shall be son to me”
does not speak of begettal but of parenting. The Father, from whom all fathers take their name[Eph 3.14] will act as a true father to His real son. He will teach and encourage him, protect and g
uide him towards maturity and He will not abandon His Son and His son will respond in love to his real Father God.
The begettal is in the previous verses from Ps 2.

“And when he brings his firstborn into the world”

does not speak of the Father as midwife of baby Jesus but again His sending of His own, only begotten Son INTO the world. The firstborn is already a son when he is brought into the world as an embryo in Mary.

Paul used Ps 2 in many ways as there are not many scriptures about Jesus as the Son of God in the OT.
Jesus was called the Son of God from his physical birth but not the only begotten Son.

Do you deny Jesus was in any way the Son of God? Was Son of God just a term to distinguish him from the Father but was nothing to do with his real nature? Is that not denying the Son?

[malcolm ferris]

When it says he is the firstborn from among the grave I understand this to mean that he is the first of a new race, begotten of God.
He is not ashamed to call us brethren before His father.
He is the first of this race which has a distinction from the current race, in that, the present race of man is born of sexual intercourse and cursed with death.
This race is born of the Spirit of God and conquers death.
You don't have to be in the grave to be dead. Death is working in every one of us from the time we issue forth from the womb.
But when we are born again, we pass from death unto life. We are born from the dead.

[NickHassan]

Quote (malcolm ferris @ Mar. 31 2006,06:32)

When it says he is the firstborn from among the grave I understand this to mean that he is the first of a new race, begotten of God. He is not ashamed to call us brethren before His father. He is the first of this race which has a distinction from the current race, in that, the present race of man is born of sexual intercourse and cursed with death. This race is born of the Spirit of God and conquers death. You don't have to be in the grave to be dead. Death is working in every one of us from the time we issue forth from the womb. But when we are born again, we pass from death unto life. We are born from the dead.

Hi Malcolm ,
Reborn from the dead surely speaks of those blessed souls in the first resurrection which has only happened so far for the “firstborn”

[malcolm ferris]

Yes
We are right now seated in heavenly places in Christ Jesus according to scripture.
We are told the body is dead because of sin, so the body is in need of redemption, the Holy Spirit baptism is the earnest of this.
Yet although the body is dead because of sin, we who believe on the name of Jesus Christ have (present tense) passed from death unto life.
So even though the full reality of it will only kick in at the ressurection. We already have the promise of it by the Word of God, so it cannot fail to happen. We already can rejoice in the hope of it. Already we are risen in Him and already seated in heavenly places, that's the way I understand it.

[Cubes]

I agree w/ your two posts above, Malcolm.

[Author]

Posts