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Quote (Stu @ Oct. 07 2009,17:43) No question. What are the practical novel results thusfar from the efforts of those who have kept an open mind to the supernatural? Stuart
Without a conclusive universally applicable proof, thus far you would have no provable novel results.That said, were such a proof to exist, there might be some capacity to apply the implications retrospectively.
Regardless, the burden of apparent proof to form a personal opinion is usually necessarily lower than sufficient proof to create a bulletproof argument sufficient to be impossible to logically deny. Which is to say, just because I can hold the premise in my world view doesn't mean I can produce sufficient evidence (currently) to convince you it should be held in yours. And besides, in theory I might still drop the premise from my world view if the course of events were to entirely fail to substantiate it.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 20 2009,12:05) Quote (t8 @ Aug. 20 2009,23:43) The Truth About Evolution
By Duncan Long
============
Back in the 1700 and 1800s when science was bringing mankind into the modern era with the
advances in medicine, physics, and mathematics which paved the way for the industrial and
information revolutions, scientists generally had a profound belief in God and often searched for
their answers to problems with an eye toward finding out how the Creator had designed his
creation and what rules governed it. Religion and science had little trouble coexisting (except for
an occasional squabble from time to time) since both the scientists and religious thinkers were
basically exploring different sides of the same coin.
This started to change in the late 1800s when Charles Darwin proposed what would become
commonly known as the theory of evolution or the survival of the fittest.
=================================================================================================Yes it seems that Darwin certainly has amassed a following. Some of his adherents are so loyal to his teachings that they just simply deny anything that remotely speaks of a creator.
It seems that we as people do indeed follow. Whether we follow God through his prophets, or man-made-science through their prophets, we are like sheep and we follow.
I personally have no problem with science when it is conducted or taught in a truthful way.
I just think that many people use science for their agenda and pre-defined beliefs thereby inhibiting truth.
I am just not willing to sign up for the religious side of science. The one that says in the beginning there was nothing and nothing exploded and became this really little something that grew to be a really really big something and then formed all kinds of things like bananas and people who could acknowledge the existence of the universe.For me, I have a faith in God and I love science when it is not being used in a religious fashion.
I think both are important. One exercises my faith and heart, and the other my mind. But both lead me to give glory to the creator of all.Science and Faith can co-exist. After all it did once, so why not now?
Those who would follow blindly anything are indeed being mindlessly religious. What that has to do with evolution as a scientific theory I'm not sure. Social Darwinism? They were clearly a bunch of deluded crackpots, religious in their outlook.Faith and science are diametrically opposed means of determining data. Science can be demonstrated to work withing the empirical world while the history of religious 'revelation' tells us that faith does not produce any knowledge not already determined by a scientific process.
As a means of modeling reality (which is all science really seeks to do) the scientific method has become fitter than faith as a means of finding out stuff. That is the nature of evolution!
Stuart
Where was science when the world believed it was flat?Maybe the proof will be delievered when the Lord returns.
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 09 2009,22:35) That is very honest of you. How long do you think you will give it?!
Stuart
Hey, I think honesty is a good thing!3-5 years should be more than sufficient to finish resolving the question personally. I'd really expect 3 to be enough in all probability. At the moment I'm keeping the premise in my world view and would expect events to either entirely reinforce that, or to discredit it.
I think you'd be safe to assume the latter if either of us is still around discussing the matter on this site in the latter part of that timeframe.
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Hmmm, and yet, some people knew the earth wasn't flat before then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EratosthenesSure you're not thinking of Galileo Galilei?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_GalileiActually, if you glance through the latter article it's interesting in that it points out issues with taking all of the Bible entirely literally – to do with the sun rising and the earth not being moveable, etc.
Of course now, we're stuck with not even being able to see the sun as the centre of the universe. On the flipside, it means there's a whole universe out there waiting to be figured out.
I thought the most compelling christian argument for a flat earth was to be found in Luke:
Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
The ancient Kingdom of Tonga and the ancient Kingdom of Egypt must have been on the same side…
Stuart
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 09 2009,10:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Assumption or Scientific fact? LoLQuote (Douglas @ Oct. 09 2009,14:21) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Hmmm, and yet, some people knew the earth wasn't flat before then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EratosthenesSure you're not thinking of Galileo Galilei?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_GalileiActually, if you glance through the latter article it's interesting in that it points out issues with taking all of the Bible entirely literally – to do with the sun rising and the earth not being moveable, etc.
Of course now, we're stuck with not even being able to see the sun as the centre of the universe. On the flipside, it means there's a whole universe out there waiting to be figured out.
Exactly Science is proven and disproven on a daily basis. Funny thing as well as we inch along through life many parts of the bible are being proven accurate.Quote (Douglas @ Oct. 10 2009,09:21) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Hmmm, and yet, some people knew the earth wasn't flat before then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EratosthenesSure you're not thinking of Galileo Galilei?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_GalileiActually, if you glance through the latter article it's interesting in that it points out issues with taking all of the Bible entirely literally – to do with the sun rising and the earth not being moveable, etc.
Of course now, we're stuck with not even being able to see the sun as the centre of the universe. On the flipside, it means there's a whole universe out there waiting to be figured out.
You are correct, however during the dark ages all of that knowledge was repressed and for hundreds of years “facts” were changed.Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
So-called Christians.Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
While these so-called people were repressing and killing, they were doing the exact opposite to what Jesus taught. In other words, they were simply using religion for their political ideologies. So no point in throwing out the baby with the bath water is there. If people are that silly, then the obvious weapon to use to destroy something is to join it and then misrepresent it.Besides while this crap was going on, the Old Testament had this to say.
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.Circle of the earth. From space, earth appears as a circle.
“He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing.Quite revolutionary because gravity wasn't understood and so people believed the world was supported by something physical. There is no text in the Bible that supports the world view at that time that the earth was sitting on elephants, standing on a turtle, or being held up by Atlas
“He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters
At the boundary of light and darkness.The book of Enoch is interesting too.
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 06 2009,11:58) But, you two, all we have is our earthly perspectives. There is no other knowledge.
That describes your perspective quite nicely.Quote (t8 @ Oct. 10 2009,13:26) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 06 2009,11:58) But, you two, all we have is our earthly perspectives. There is no other knowledge.
That describes your perspective quite nicely.
Thanks.The problem for you is that you don't realise it is your perspective too.
Stuart
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 10 2009,11:35) Quote (Douglas @ Oct. 09 2009,14:21) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Hmmm, and yet, some people knew the earth wasn't flat before then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EratosthenesSure you're not thinking of Galileo Galilei?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_GalileiActually, if you glance through the latter article it's interesting in that it points out issues with taking all of the Bible entirely literally – to do with the sun rising and the earth not being moveable, etc.
Of course now, we're stuck with not even being able to see the sun as the centre of the universe. On the flipside, it means there's a whole universe out there waiting to be figured out.
Exactly Science is proven and disproven on a daily basis. Funny thing as well as we inch along through life many parts of the bible are being proven accurate.
Like what?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 10 2009,00:30) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 10 2009,11:35) Quote (Douglas @ Oct. 09 2009,14:21) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Hmmm, and yet, some people knew the earth wasn't flat before then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EratosthenesSure you're not thinking of Galileo Galilei?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_GalileiActually, if you glance through the latter article it's interesting in that it points out issues with taking all of the Bible entirely literally – to do with the sun rising and the earth not being moveable, etc.
Of course now, we're stuck with not even being able to see the sun as the centre of the universe. On the flipside, it means there's a whole universe out there waiting to be figured out.
Exactly Science is proven and disproven on a daily basis. Funny thing as well as we inch along through life many parts of the bible are being proven accurate.
Like what?Stuart
Accepted scientific fact is just the theory that they haven't disproved yet.Of course Scientific facts can be disproved. In fact, most will be over time with the evolution of Science and Technology.
Wasn't there facts about a global Ice Age that was imminent, and the facts are global warming?
Facts of a flat earth til it was disproven.
The sun as the center of the universe.
The sun rotated around the earth.
Hawking disproved.
Einstein disproved.
There is always a chance that they could be disproved or changed.
Quote (t8 @ Oct. 10 2009,13:23) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
While these so-called people were repressing and killing, they were doing the exact opposite to what Jesus taught. In other words, they were simply using religion for their political ideologies. So no point in throwing out the baby with the bath water is there. If people are that silly, then the obvious weapon to use to destroy something is to join it and then misrepresent it.Besides while this crap was going on, the Old Testament had this to say.
Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.Circle of the earth. From space, earth appears as a circle.
“He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing.Quite revolutionary because gravity wasn't understood and so people believed the world was supported by something physical. There is no text in the Bible that supports the world view at that time that the earth was sitting on elephants, standing on a turtle, or being held up by Atlas
“He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters
At the boundary of light and darkness.The book of Enoch is interesting too.
Sounds like the bible is describing a flat circle, not a globe or sphere. You could still fall off the edge of a flat circle I suppose. Surely God knew the difference.Tim
Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 10 2009,20:23) Quote (Stu @ Oct. 10 2009,00:30) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 10 2009,11:35) Quote (Douglas @ Oct. 09 2009,14:21) Quote (TimothyVI @ Oct. 10 2009,05:11) Quote (Constitutionalist @ Oct. 09 2009,23:43) Where was science when the world believed it was flat?
I think that the ones who stated otherwise were being repressed or killed by the Christians in charge.Tim
Hmmm, and yet, some people knew the earth wasn't flat before then.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EratosthenesSure you're not thinking of Galileo Galilei?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo_GalileiActually, if you glance through the latter article it's interesting in that it points out issues with taking all of the Bible entirely literally – to do with the sun rising and the earth not being moveable, etc.
Of course now, we're stuck with not even being able to see the sun as the centre of the universe. On the flipside, it means there's a whole universe out there waiting to be figured out.
Exactly Science is proven and disproven on a daily basis. Funny thing as well as we inch along through life many parts of the bible are being proven accurate.
Like what?Stuart
Accepted scientific fact is just the theory that they haven't disproved yet.Of course Scientific facts can be disproved. In fact, most will be over time with the evolution of Science and Technology.
Wasn't there facts about a global Ice Age that was imminent, and the facts are global warming?
Facts of a flat earth til it was disproven.
The sun as the center of the universe.
The sun rotated around the earth.
Hawking disproved.
Einstein disproved.
There is always a chance that they could be disproved or changed.
Try #2.Like what… “parts of the bible are being proven accurate“?
Stuart
By the way, what do you mean by
Hawking disproved.
Einstein disproved.
Sounds like the usual christian smear of science to me.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Oct. 10 2009,03:44) By the way, what do you mean by Hawking disproved.
Einstein disproved.
Sounds like the usual christian smear of science to me.
Stuart
I am not trying to disprove anything, nor am I trying to prove anything. In fact I am only a novice in the realm of science since it is not my forte. I just make comments now and again. That is why you do not see me usually in these areas. This is for you folks of the scientific world. So that is why I do not debate, I made a small insignificant statement, you asked a question, I gave a simple answer, you wish to debate? You win!Now that was simple.
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