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Stu: FAITH: unquestioning belief, complete trust or confidence, loyalty….Websters Dictionary!
I don't have any problem continuing our discussions and not using the word faith. We will use belief instead.
No matter how much evidence one “believes” there is on a subject, if the information was not in the form of first hand experience it is either believed or not believed. What we have chosen to believe over the years creates who we are and how we see life. Different viewpoints create different perceptions which alter or color our beliefs. Im out of time, thanks for reading, peace to you, TKQuote (Stu @ June 06 2009,20:57) Quote (942767 @ June 06 2009,14:50) I am glad that you do not hate me, but I already know the truth, and there is no way, I repeat, no way that I can be wrong. I have told you why on numerous occasions, and you have not believed me, but one day, one way or another, you will know that I have told you the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I realise that I could be wrong about my worldview, although I give it a very low probability. Such professed certainty on your part is a distinct sign of insecurity. You have over-invested emotionally and in terms of your personal reputation in this belief system, but that is how christianity works: the more completely ridiculous the tenet, the more commitment you have to have and the more likely you are to pass the point of no easy return.You have told me but you have not convinced me. Anyone as sure of anything as you are of this should be treated very warily and is certainly not someone I could trust easily, I am sorry to say.
Stuart
Hi Stu:You say that I am insecure because of what I believe, but no, on the contrary, I know the truth about God and what the future holds, and so, no insescurity here.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ June 09 2009,15:09) Quote (Stu @ June 06 2009,20:57) Quote (942767 @ June 06 2009,14:50) I am glad that you do not hate me, but I already know the truth, and there is no way, I repeat, no way that I can be wrong. I have told you why on numerous occasions, and you have not believed me, but one day, one way or another, you will know that I have told you the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I realise that I could be wrong about my worldview, although I give it a very low probability. Such professed certainty on your part is a distinct sign of insecurity. You have over-invested emotionally and in terms of your personal reputation in this belief system, but that is how christianity works: the more completely ridiculous the tenet, the more commitment you have to have and the more likely you are to pass the point of no easy return.You have told me but you have not convinced me. Anyone as sure of anything as you are of this should be treated very warily and is certainly not someone I could trust easily, I am sorry to say.
Stuart
Hi Stu:You say that I am insecure because of what I believe, but no, on the contrary, I know the truth about God and what the future holds, and so, no insescurity here.
Love in Christ,
Marty
People who are unable to deal with uncertainty invent for themselves a security blanket of beliefs that are incorruptible, pretty much as you have done. I personally would not be able to call that living, but it is not my business ultimately.Stuart
Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 08 2009,22:12) Stu: FAITH: unquestioning belief, complete trust or confidence, loyalty….Websters Dictionary!
I don't have any problem continuing our discussions and not using the word faith. We will use belief instead.
No matter how much evidence one “believes” there is on a subject, if the information was not in the form of first hand experience it is either believed or not believed. What we have chosen to believe over the years creates who we are and how we see life. Different viewpoints create different perceptions which alter or color our beliefs. Im out of time, thanks for reading, peace to you, TK
TKQuote No matter how much evidence one “believes” there is on a subject, if the information was not in the form of first hand experience it is either believed or not believed.
But even in the case of a first hand experience you must be prepared to accept that you saw an illusion.Quote What we have chosen to believe over the years creates who we are and how we see life. Different viewpoints create different perceptions which alter or color our beliefs.
Yes. That is why evidence is the only arbiter we have on which we can rely. There is no evidence for gods. That indicates that, as you say, our claims of gods are the products of our coloured beliefs.Stuart
Stu: We came from something! That is who I call God! Whoever or whatever created this marvelous physical planet and our bodies I respectfully call God. If I am wrong about this loving God that I believe in, it doesn't matter. I have free will to choose what to do. I find that if I express love to others it makes me feel good.Helping others feels good. Sharing with others feels good. I find that even if it is only a belief, the words that tell me I am clean and pure and perfect make me feel good. We know positive thinking is good for us physically so it aligns with that. It is the one fairy tale that applies directly to all humans so I have no predjudice of any form of humanity. For me It just makes for a good life with lots of hope for the furure. Blessings and Peace, TK
TK
Let's break that broad pantheistic/deist sweep of yours down into more manageable pieces. If you mean 'we humans came from something', then it is our ancestors, including all the species that have been our ancestors for the last 4 billion years. So god is a long line of ever-changing living ancestor species. There was not a 'whoever' that created the planets, they arose by accretion of a disc of cloud and gas that was ejected from a nearby supernova, one that also caused our sun to begin. So god is a supernova and gravity. If god is everything, then god is not particularly anything. That is the kind of god Einstein had in mind: it is a metaphor for the nature of the universe, but certainly not something you would say exists in any meaningful sense.
I imagine my experience of life in relation to others is very similar to yours. Yet I know that my “free will” is limited by my capacities as a human, my genes and the environment in which I have developed. I do not have any gods but I can see that christianity is not quite as squeaky clean and jovial as you seem to be trying to make out. God-belief is an evolutionary adaptation that almost certainly had its advantage in group dynamics in our ancestors, giving those early people a uniting fear that made them more cooperative with one another. Christianity is a particularly ugly version of god-belief because it parasitises the weaknesses of the way the human brain works and preys on human insecurities for its survival, in the end promoted by the people who stood to gain political power by convincing others to develop superstitious beliefs.
I think you cannot be “free” in any sense until you have factored that into your worldview.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ June 09 2009,20:26) Quote (942767 @ June 09 2009,15:09) Quote (Stu @ June 06 2009,20:57) Quote (942767 @ June 06 2009,14:50) I am glad that you do not hate me, but I already know the truth, and there is no way, I repeat, no way that I can be wrong. I have told you why on numerous occasions, and you have not believed me, but one day, one way or another, you will know that I have told you the truth.
Love in Christ,
Marty
I realise that I could be wrong about my worldview, although I give it a very low probability. Such professed certainty on your part is a distinct sign of insecurity. You have over-invested emotionally and in terms of your personal reputation in this belief system, but that is how christianity works: the more completely ridiculous the tenet, the more commitment you have to have and the more likely you are to pass the point of no easy return.You have told me but you have not convinced me. Anyone as sure of anything as you are of this should be treated very warily and is certainly not someone I could trust easily, I am sorry to say.
Stuart
Hi Stu:You say that I am insecure because of what I believe, but no, on the contrary, I know the truth about God and what the future holds, and so, no insescurity here.
Love in Christ,
Marty
People who are unable to deal with uncertainty invent for themselves a security blanket of beliefs that are incorruptible, pretty much as you have done. I personally would not be able to call that living, but it is not my business ultimately.Stuart
Stu, I haven't invented any of my testimony about God and what he has done for us in the person of Jesus Christ.I know the truth. I am not searching for the truth about whether or not God is a reality.
And because I have a personal relationship with God, my life has a purpose. It is not just eat, drink and be merry for tommorow I die. I have peace of mind, and joy in this world, and hope of all those things that God has promised to those who love him. I have not fear of death because I know the truth.
This world is temporary and is for the purpose of calling those who will into a relationship with God. It is this way by design because God does not want anyone to serve Him if they do not want to do so.
No, no uncertainty here.
Love in Christ,
Marty942767
Quote I haven't invented any of my testimony about God and what he has done for us in the person of Jesus Christ.
You have told us that of which you are convinced. You did not invent all of it. You read some of it in a book then convinced yourself of its truth.Quote I know the truth. I am not searching for the truth about whether or not God is a reality.
Then you will never come to a decision about whether your god is a reality or not. I would not find it satisfying to have an unquestioned elephant in the room dressed in the emperor’s new clothes, if you will pardon the mixing of metaphors. How can you know the truth if you reject putting the question to the test? The truth is that you fear the possibility that you might decide you are wrong.Quote And because I have a personal relationship with God, my life has a purpose. It is not just eat, drink and be merry for tommorow I die. I have peace of mind, and joy in this world, and hope of all those things that God has promised to those who love him. I have not fear of death because I know the truth.
Do you think my life without any Imaginary Friends lacks purpose? Do you think I have shallow sense of purpose? Do you think I do not enjoy peace of mind and joy? Are you under the mistaken apprehension that I fear death? You do not hold any trump cards by believing in things that almost certainly are human inventions.Quote This world is temporary and is for the purpose of calling those who will into a relationship with God.
No, the world has no purpose evident whatever. You make your own purpose, based on the circumstances in which you find yourself. The odds are that if you found yourself growing up in Pakistan you would not be a christian now.Quote It is this way by design because God does not want anyone to serve Him if they do not want to do so.
But apparently he reserves a lake of fire for those who do not follow. Your god is not clear about what he wants. You cannot be clear about that with any credibility because your fairy tales cannot be tested for truth.Quote No, no uncertainty here.
I know. That is why I called you insecure.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ June 09 2009,23:36) TK Let's break that broad pantheistic/deist sweep of yours down into more manageable pieces. If you mean 'we humans came from something', then it is our ancestors, including all the species that have been our ancestors for the last 4 billion years. So god is a long line of ever-changing living ancestor species. There was not a 'whoever' that created the planets, they arose by accretion of a disc of cloud and gas that was ejected from a nearby supernova, one that also caused our sun to begin. So god is a supernova and gravity. If god is everything, then god is not particularly anything. That is the kind of god Einstein had in mind: it is a metaphor for the nature of the universe, but certainly not something you would say exists in any meaningful sense.
I imagine my experience of life in relation to others is very similar to yours. Yet I know that my “free will” is limited by my capacities as a human, my genes and the environment in which I have developed. I do not have any gods but I can see that christianity is not quite as squeaky clean and jovial as you seem to be trying to make out. God-belief is an evolutionary adaptation that almost certainly had its advantage in group dynamics in our ancestors, giving those early people a uniting fear that made them more cooperative with one another. Christianity is a particularly ugly version of god-belief because it parasitises the weaknesses of the way the human brain works and preys on human insecurities for its survival, in the end promoted by the people who stood to gain political power by convincing others to develop superstitious beliefs.
I think you cannot be “free” in any sense until you have factored that into your worldview.
Stuart
Stu: May I quote you…”evidence is the only arbiter we have on which we can rely….” then in the next post….”there was not a 'whoever' that created the planets, they arose by accretion of a disc of cloud and gas that was ejected from a nearby supernove…”
Believing other peoples theories is hardly evidence. And to quote that theory as truth in my book takes faith in the theory.
We all choose what we want to believe as truth to us. Yet, if we find true solace and joy and hope and thanksgiving within, from our beliefs in God is there a good reason to taunt and make light of what we believe. Even if you feel that way about our faith in God does it do any good in your life to attempt to trample the beliefs of others. Religion has so distorted and destroyed the good news of God that most who call themselves christians are as miserable and sick as everybody else. None of the power works of God are being shown. At the very least the topics being shared on this site should be the incredible good news of the New Covenant. Religion has made the New the same as the Old. Word wars taking srciptures that support man made doctrines and waring against Gods Truth. I have been studying alone for the last 18 years. I have found nothing but good news but few will listen. Have a great day, TKTK
Quote May I quote you…”evidence is the only arbiter we have on which we can rely….” then in the next post….”there was not a 'whoever' that created the planets, they arose by accretion of a disc of cloud and gas that was ejected from a nearby supernove…”
Believing other peoples theories is hardly evidence. And to quote that theory as truth in my book takes faith in the theory.
Well in my book it does not. I have given a very clear distinction between believing things on faith and believing them on evidence. You seem to be ignoring the fact that with science you DO NOT take the scientist’s word for it. If you possibly can you do the experiments for yourself. That may not always be very be practical but it is possible in principle. With faith, all you have to do is believe what you like. You also ignore the point (twice now) about scientists having a social contract with the public to supply the best quality of information possible. The best information says that the planets formed by accretion of tiny particles ejected from a nearby supernova some 4.6 billion years ago. Religious creation myths are not falsifiable so they do not say anything of value whatever. You can go on believing whatever made up religious fantasies you like, but don’t expect me to believe them.Quote We all choose what we want to believe as truth to us. Yet, if we find true solace and joy and hope and thanksgiving within, from our beliefs in God is there a good reason to taunt and make light of what we believe.
Yes because they are absurd beliefs and such a believer is missing out on the astonishing beauty of the universe by replacing the modern insight an ugly set of myths that are the inventions of ancient Middle-Eastern goat herders. Truth is stranger than fiction. The Judeo-christian story is not strange, it is a rather mediocre fiction. I would not speak of your beliefs about the origins of species, but many christians make the mistake of thinking that evolution by natural selection does not apply to them. By this means they deny their heritage and the amazing story of how we came to be here. To me that is a tragedy: it is opting into living a lie of an existence.Quote Even if you feel that way about our faith in God does it do any good in your life to attempt to trample the beliefs of others.
It might do the others some good to have their nonsense trampled for them! After all, many christians are in the business of converting atheists, supposedly for the non-believer’s own good. Is that a one-way street? Why should the truth not be allowed to prevail, no matter what it is? Why should christians be allowed to claim faith as a trump card? I see nothing courageous about believing things without evidence. That seems stupid to me. The bluff of christianity should be called for the christian’s good! How do you know what benefits accrue from refusing to believe silly things, if you won’t try it?Quote Religion has so distorted and destroyed the good news of God that most who call themselves christians are as miserable and sick as everybody else. None of the power works of God are being shown. At the very least the topics being shared on this site should be the incredible good news of the New Covenant. Religion has made the New the same as the Old. Word wars taking srciptures that support man made doctrines and waring against Gods Truth. I have been studying alone for the last 18 years. I have found nothing but good news but few will listen.
If you only look for good news that is all you will find. That does not mean there IS only good news. I rather think the only good thing about christianity is Matthew 7:12, and even that has been done better by other belief systems.Stuart
Stu: I just had a thought. The atheiest believes there is no God, or God is no thing. So actually an athiest believes in nothing.Ha Ha–
Maybe we don't see eye to eye but you are probably taller than me! (comedian out of a job)
Beside what we both believe, I appreciate your intelligent rebuttal and input. Blessings to you, TKAn atheist believes there are no gods and the christian doesn't. Therefore it is the christian lacking the belief!
Stuart
If you went behind the garage and fired it up, you would “know” you did it and those you tell may or may not “believe” you. But you would “know”, and there is nothing anyone could say that would make untrue that you went behind the garage and fired it up.
Those of us who have accepted salvation from Jesus Christ have had a real experience with Christ. God’s Word is written in the inward parts of all mankind. When your mind finds your heart you will know that what i say is true.Quote (TechJoe @ June 25 2009,16:01) If you went behind the garage and fired it up, you would “know” you did it and those you tell may or may not “believe” you. But you would “know”, and there is nothing anyone could say that would make untrue that you went behind the garage and fired it up.
Those of us who have accepted salvation from Jesus Christ have had a real experience with Christ. God’s Word is written in the inward parts of all mankind. When your mind finds your heart you will know that what i say is true.
But what if you dreamed the whole goin' behind the garage and firin' up thing?That is what happened to Saul of Tarsus. It's very likely what happened to you too. You might have been awake, but it is all very much a figment of your brain, the thing that is always making stuff up just so we can cope with life.
Stuart
Jesus paid for our sins by being seperated from God, when He cried on the cross, my God my God why have you forsaken me, He really was frosaken by God because at the moment of His death He had all sin on him. The death referred to in romans23:3 is seperation from God. The physical death that people experience is not true death for according to revelation everyone that is dead will rise again to be judged by God at the great white throne judgment. Physical death is referred to in the new testament as sleep (1 Corinthians 15 ). So there for our “death” cannot pay the price for our sin. But Jesus who experiened seperation from God can. This seperation from God was not forever for Jesus because He was innocent, and did not deserve it as we do. Jesus never sinned, but in His great love for us he took what we desereved, and He is alive now in heaven waiting for us. Hope this helps. blessings
The universe (which I believe was created by divine will) does not reward or punish it operates on cause and effect. We are not due reward or punishment we simply reap the results of our actions and decisions. As evidence let’s look at Newton's Third Law of Motion which states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
According to Newton, whenever objects A and B interact with each other, they exert forces upon each other. These two forces are called action and reaction forces. This appears to be a fundamental fact of our universe. I would extrapolate here and claim this applies to humanity in a spiritual sense and not merely a physical one. The result would be that God would not need to punish or reward anyone, we essentially would do that ourselves. Love leads to love and hurt to hurt. As these results are rarely immediate, most do not see the connection of action and result as so discount the effect. This web of cause and effect is called karma by many. It is the concept that our actions and even our thoughts eventually rebound to us for woe or weal. In this case everything is in its proper proportion the results always fit the action. Yet there are those of a theologically dogmatic view who expect results quite out of proportion to their actions. They look at God meting out eternal heaven or hell because of a few basic choices made in a short existence. Yet as our deeds are finite the ends are likewise finite. It would defy everything we know of God's universe to think that finite causes ever result in infinite results. So for those who expect eternal reward or punishment based on their short sojourn in this life, your beliefs defy everything we know of the way the universe operates.Quote (Cato @ June 29 2009,11:14) The universe (which I believe was created by divine will) does not reward or punish it operates on cause and effect. We are not due reward or punishment we simply reap the results of our actions and decisions. As evidence let’s look at Newton's Third Law of Motion which states that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
According to Newton, whenever objects A and B interact with each other, they exert forces upon each other. These two forces are called action and reaction forces. This appears to be a fundamental fact of our universe. I would extrapolate here and claim this applies to humanity in a spiritual sense and not merely a physical one. The result would be that God would not need to punish or reward anyone, we essentially would do that ourselves. Love leads to love and hurt to hurt. As these results are rarely immediate, most do not see the connection of action and result as so discount the effect. This web of cause and effect is called karma by many. It is the concept that our actions and even our thoughts eventually rebound to us for woe or weal. In this case everything is in its proper proportion the results always fit the action. Yet there are those of a theologically dogmatic view who expect results quite out of proportion to their actions. They look at God meting out eternal heaven or hell because of a few basic choices made in a short existence. Yet as our deeds are finite the ends are likewise finite. It would defy everything we know of God's universe to think that finite causes ever result in infinite results. So for those who expect eternal reward or punishment based on their short sojourn in this life, your beliefs defy everything we know of the way the universe operates.
Hey catoHavnt seen you in awhile!
Hope you and yours are doing well!
Welcome back!
WJ
I am doing quite well thanks for the kind words WJ. I got bored as most of us, myself included, were just endlessly repeating our same points and arguments. Well as it has been almost a year I thought I'd come back and take a look. Good to see Stu and Nick are keeping things going. Thanks again.
Quote I got bored as most of us, myself included, were just endlessly repeating our same points and arguments. I've been away for months as well. Much the same reason. I do enjoy being sharpened though. And this forum is a great test of patience. If you do not go insane, you will become stronger.
Quote (david @ July 01 2009,17:41) Quote I got bored as most of us, myself included, were just endlessly repeating our same points and arguments. I've been away for months as well. Much the same reason. I do enjoy being sharpened though. And this forum is a great test of patience. If you do not go insane, you will become stronger.
To that I had to laugh!!! Maybe angry at some calling names.I came here I thought, that I could just fellowship with other like minded people. Oh, boy was I in for a surprise.
Nice to see both of you again.
Peace and Love Irene
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