Salvation vs eternal punishment

Participant

Quote (Stu @ June 04 2009,21:17)

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2009,12:05)

Quote (Stu @ June 02 2009,18:31)

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2009,09:49)

Hi WhatisTrue:

One other thought that I would share with you is that the scripture states that salvation is a gift from God. In other words, we did not earn it or we cannot buy it.

But we, as Christians are the Lord's disciples, suffer the same insults and persecutions that the Lord suffered as we learn to walk in obedience to God's Word for our sakes as well as for those who will be saved through the life that we live.

In other words, it isn't easy to be a Christian.

Love in Christ,
Marty

You poor thing. Not only is it difficult to believe absurdities but people tell you that you are absurd because you do.

Saul of Tarsus was the master of the underdog card. Would you say that it is chiefly he who is responsible for the victimhood mentality of so many christians?

Stuart

Hi Stu:

No need to be sorry for me.

The things that people like you do by calling me names and whatever else you do in trying to discourage me in my walk with the Lord is a necessary part in my learning to apply the Word of God in my life.

And no, it wasn't Paul, but Jesus who has warned us as his disciples that what they have done to him, they would also do to us because we are obeying him.

I am still praying for you.

Love in Christ,
Marty

“People like you”? People like what?

Jesus said what?

Here are the words of the deluded politician Paul:

Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 Cor 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

These verses are not attributed to Jesus. They are not the words of a person happy about you weighing up the pros and cons of believing silly things. They are exactly the same kinds of things that tinpot dictators say. Are you a resident of North Korea or a christian? It can be pretty hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Please do not pray for me. Your life is to precious to waste on ineffectual rituals.

Stuart

Hi Stu:

The meaning of the word “apostle” is “sent by God”. Paul was an Apostle, therefore, he was obeying the Lord.

If anyone is preaching another gospel, they are deceiving the people.

Jesus words are: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME”.

Quote

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You say:

Quote

Are you a resident of North Korea or a christian? It can be pretty hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Well, I will try to do better Stu. I can not have any one speak reproachfully of my God and my Lord because of the life that I live.

The commandments of my Lord are:

Quote

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 5, 2009 at 1:03 am#159215

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 04 2009,09:50)

Quote (942767 @ June 02 2009,09:34)

Hi WhatisTrue:

You ask:

Quote

What punishment awaits someone who is found guilty in God's court? Did Jesus pay that very same penalty?

As you have stated the scripture states that the wages of sin is death. Death means separation from God not just the detioration of the flesh body. A Christian soul is saved from destruction, but his body continues to detiorate and he will either die a physical death or he will be here when the Lord comes for the church in which case he will be transformed and receive a spiritual body without dieing a physical death. Those who have died in Christ will receive a spiritual body at his coming in the first resurrection.

All of humanity has sinned and are separated from God through these trespasses of God's Law, if they have not been reconciled to God, and Jesus has paid the price for all of humanity for this first death or separation from God. He paid the price for the first death or separation from God in that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.

The penalty for the second death he did not pay, and somenone who is not saved will pay this penalty himself. The punishment will be according to the life that the person lived, or in other words according to that person's works, and it will be eternal death, or eternal separation from God.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Marty: Greetings, I have a question. You mentioned that,..all of humanity has sinned and are separaed from God through these trespasses of Gods Law…First, there was no sin committed in the Garden of Eden, God never used the word there. It was Adam that claimed what sin was in Gen Ch 4:6. There was no Law of God at that time and where there is no Law there can be no sin or transgression. God did not establish sin, man did!!Sin was established by Adam as something either done wrong or the punishment for it. That idea was then passed on down the line as something God said but that is untrue. It was always an error in thinking or a mistaken belief. Even the idea of sin separating man from God. How can we be separated from a God who is everywhere? He's within and without. There is no place where he is not. If sin is just thinking wrong it totally changes everything! Thats why Jesus had to come and tell the Truth to the religious world who was lost in error/sin! Have a blessed day, TK

Hi Tim:

This is what the Apostle Paul has written:

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Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

God gave Adam a commandment, and gave him the consequence for disobedience to that commandment. The Apostle Paul calls this disobedience sin. He said by “one man sin entered into the world”. Adam and Eve were cast out of the Garden of Eden because of this disobedience. Yes, God is everywhere by His Spirit, but a person can be spiritually separated from God or in other words they do not have a personal relationship with God.

If a person has not been reconciled to God through the provision God has made for salvation, they are spiritually separated from God because of sin.

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Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Because man is spiritually separated from God because of sin, Jesus said:

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Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

And this, I believes sums this up.

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Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 5, 2009 at 8:52 am#159216

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 05 2009,12:21)

The meaning of the word “apostle” is “sent by God”. Paul was an Apostle, therefore, he was obeying the Lord.

If anyone is preaching another gospel, they are deceiving the people.

Jesus words are: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME”.

Quote

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You say:

Quote

Are you a resident of North Korea or a christian? It can be pretty hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Well, I will try to do better Stu. I can not have any one speak reproachfully of my God and my Lord because of the life that I live.

The commandments of my Lord are:

Quote

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Love in Christ,
Marty

So it is your god not Paul that tells you not to think. Why did he supposedly give you a brain capable of critical thinking then tell you not to use it for that positive purpose? Seems illogical to me. Still, with your god it seems any old thing is possible.

As I do not hate you, I hope that your Matthew quote refers to someone else. I hope you might see a contrary view as a healthy thing, but you are so immunised by your reading of Saul of Tarsus that you see every counter argument as evil. If you are wrong, and Jesus is NOT the way to the Imaginary Friend you are in awe of, should you not be open to the possibility of the true path? How would you ever discover you were wrong? Is your faith such a tenuous thing that it will not stand up to questioning?

Do you not trust the workings of the thinking brain your god gave you?

Stuart

June 5, 2009 at 8:54 am#159217

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 05 2009,00:55)

Hey Nick:If I make a rule for my child by saying, don't eat that,for if you eat that it will make you sick and the child goes ahead and eats and gets sick I sure don't punish him further.

That is a very good point.

Stuart

June 5, 2009 at 2:20 pm#159218

Participant

To All a thought: Adam didn't sin in the Garden! He was given a free will choice to accept or reject knowledge of good AND EVIL. He only knew Good because Good or God was all there was. There was actually no choice avaliable as God is ONE. There must be two for choice! ONE cannot experience itself without Two.In the same way that you cannot know hot unless you have experienced cold. Good could not be comprehended and experienced as Good without bad or evil being avaliable for comparison. Perhaps God or all that is made mankind in his image and gave him free will to create anything. Adam chose to create the existence of evil, bad, hurt, pain, suffering all discordant energies that would be opposite good, life, peace,happy etc. All the while planning to go back to good. Yet Adam lost himself to the idea of separation from God. Clearly only one force existed from the beginning but while playing with the allusion of an opposite force man/Adam began to believe that he was separated from and out of union with God. It wasn't true, it was a lie actually an allusion of truth, but if Adam believed he was separate from God for any reason and passed that down to all mankind, then all mankind was in error/mistake/sin. Then man began to create religion or ideas to serve, pacify, rectify, the union with God. Mankind fell further from God into Laws, killings, stealing property,religious wars etc. Just some thoughts. Questions create answers. Bantering doctrines of men will do little or no good. Forever trying, in Love, TK

June 5, 2009 at 5:56 pm#159219

NickHassan

Participant

Hi TK,
So disobedience against a command of God is not sin in your view?

June 5, 2009 at 9:29 pm#159220

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 06 2009,05:56)

Hi TK,
So disobedience against a command of God is not sin in your view?

You are boldly assuming you know what the commands of your god are. If an essay by a history student just asserted that one source was right, the essay would deserve to fail. What credibility do you have in asserting that your one source is correct? Especially when it is so wrong on many points.

Stuart

June 5, 2009 at 9:35 pm#159221

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 06 2009,02:20)

Surely you had a better use of your precious lifetime than to learn and write all this nonsense. Not only is it miserable, it is a poor model of natural history and ignores the complex nature and evolutionary development of human nature and ethics. Why do christians settle for a second-best fairy tale with which to bash each other over the heads, when the reality of human behaviour and motivation is so much more engaging and does not require constant judgment of one another?

Stuart

June 6, 2009 at 2:50 am#159222

Participant

Quote (Stu @ June 05 2009,20:52)

Quote (942767 @ June 05 2009,12:21)

The meaning of the word “apostle” is “sent by God”. Paul was an Apostle, therefore, he was obeying the Lord.

If anyone is preaching another gospel, they are deceiving the people.

Jesus words are: “I am the way, the truth, and the life, NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME”.

Quote

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

1Cr 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Cr 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

You say:

Quote

Are you a resident of North Korea or a christian? It can be pretty hard to tell the difference sometimes.

Well, I will try to do better Stu. I can not have any one speak reproachfully of my God and my Lord because of the life that I live.

The commandments of my Lord are:

Quote

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Love in Christ,
Marty

Do you not trust the workings of the thinking brain your god gave you?

Stuart

Hi Stu:

I am glad that you do not hate me, but I already know the truth, and there is no way, I repeat, no way that I can be wrong.

I have told you why on numerous occasions, and you have not believed me, but one day, one way or another, you will know that I have told you the truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 6, 2009 at 3:02 am#159223

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 04 2009,21:30)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 04 2009,10:46)

Hi TK,
Did God not give specific instructions to Adam?

Hey Nick: The interesting thing is God actually warned Adam that if he accepted or partook of a belief,or certain information he would reap the consequences of that mistaken choice. Similar to later in the scriptures when God said, I lay before you life and death, so choose…! If God is Love as Jesus said he is, Love does not command anything. I believe that any time the Bible translators translated God as commanding anything is was always a suggestive choice. Sin still had not been created at that time, no Law no sin as we know it. Just for fun search the scriptures and replace the word sin with, “a mistake” or “wrong thoughts”. Like the wages of wrong thinking is death. Thanks, Bless you, TK

Hi Tim:

Someone who loves their children will correct them for their sakes. God has called us into a relationship with Him so that we will not be destroyed by our sin. And he teaches principles by which to live our lives for our benefit and the benefit of all of humanity.

But Jesus stated: “If you love me, keep my commandments”.

And so, whatever we do in obedience to God, is motivated by our love for Him and for humanity.

Love in Christ,
Marty

June 6, 2009 at 8:57 am#159224

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 06 2009,14:50)

I am glad that you do not hate me, but I already know the truth, and there is no way, I repeat, no way that I can be wrong.

I have told you why on numerous occasions, and you have not believed me, but one day, one way or another, you will know that I have told you the truth.

Love in Christ,
Marty

I realise that I could be wrong about my worldview, although I give it a very low probability. Such professed certainty on your part is a distinct sign of insecurity. You have over-invested emotionally and in terms of your personal reputation in this belief system, but that is how christianity works: the more completely ridiculous the tenet, the more commitment you have to have and the more likely you are to pass the point of no easy return.

You have told me but you have not convinced me. Anyone as sure of anything as you are of this should be treated very warily and is certainly not someone I could trust easily, I am sorry to say.

Stuart

June 6, 2009 at 10:10 am#159225

Participant

Quote (Stu @ June 06 2009,09:35)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 06 2009,02:20)

Stuart

Hey Stu: I gotta ask, If I am wasting my precious lifetime writing nonsense, then you must be wasting your precious lifetime reading and grading what you don't even believe in! Everybody gleans their own facts, truth, information from various sources. You create you by the information you choose to believe. I know you think your information is better or more sound than others but it is 90% heresay, gossip, news, books, magazines, TV, radio, etc.! All information comes through these sources. So how smart are we? We are second hand news at best. Hands on experience is the only real truth a person knows and thats about 10%. If you ever read something I write that sounds like I am condemning another person for an act that they do as bding a sin or would separate them from God, it is a grave error. I follow Jesus to the best of my knowledge. After all it is not by ability its through knowledge. If he doesn't condemn others I surely will not either. He said he took away our sin. I believe him, I have no sin. The only way I could sin is not believing that I don't have sin. Sorry I get carried away with gibberish. Bless you in all things, TK

June 6, 2009 at 5:04 pm#159226

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 06 2009,22:10)

It is fascinating, up to a point, to learn of the various ways that people believe things that ain't so. Several months ago I did state an aim of posting here that was about countering creationist lies that appear on this site. The abuse of science is what I am talking about, and now you are indulging in it too.

I reject your relative epistemology. There is information that is of a higher quality and probity than other information. How would you compare religious revelation with empirical science for the quality of information each provides? We may get our knowledge through media sources which distort the original information but that does not mean the original is not available. I have read Rutherford's paper on the structure of the atom (well most of it). In it he describes experiments that anyone could do for themselves. This is epistemology that takes no prisoners. It lives or dies on the evidence for it. The professional reputations of scientists are on the line: they have a social contract with the public to provide only the best quality of information.

Tell me what theologian is under that ethical compulsion. Revelation is at best third-class knowledge, and since it is 'knowledge' mainly revealed to the elite who also require power, I scarcely think it is the information upon which I base my worldview that is debased. I would hope to be able to show you evidence for everything I believe. Can you do the same, or is it all that oxymoronic 'unseen' evidence, the evidence of the snake oil salesman?

Stuart

June 6, 2009 at 7:05 pm#159227

Participant

Quote (Stu @ June 07 2009,05:04)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ June 06 2009,22:10)

Stuart

Stu; Its beyond egotistical to refer to people that believe things that ain't so! I try to be respectful to another by saying what I believe to be not what is. You don't know whether things are or are not what they seem to be. You just believe a way. I believe a way. We are right to ourselves. I don't abuse science but I do notice that much of science is changing as man finds more accurate ways to investigate and authenticate the things we have believed for years. If you were really reading what I write you would not find me trying to compare science and religion. “Religion is the opiate of the people”. I'll try not to bore you to much longer but what I wanted to get across before was each person on this Earth creates himself (his mind) with information that he personally chooses to believe. You can say your information is better or more sound or more stable than someone else's but of course thats because you chose that information to believe. No matter how many studies, or how rigorous the testing or the reputations of the scientists, knowledge is accepted or believed by faith unless it is performed personally or experienced personally. Think about some of the things in life you have chosen to believe and see how much of it you had first hand evidence and proof of its validity as given. You will find the greatest portion of knowledge is second hand at best! When knowledge is second hand it must be accepted or rejected by believing. In fairness, TK

June 7, 2009 at 7:08 am#159228

Participant

Quote

Its beyond egotistical to refer to people that believe things that ain't so! I try to be respectful to another by saying what I believe to be not what is. You don't know whether things are or are not what they seem to be. You just believe a way. I believe a way. We are right to ourselves.
When a person pleads in court that ‘god told him to’, is that a defense? It may be a request to be detained under the mental health act, actually! When a psychic offers police to help them with the location of a missing person, do they ask that person in because they really think he has psychic powers? When scientists consider what factors might be influencing an observed effect, do they call up a priest? These things are considered to be “just ain’t so” by three areas of public life where the quality of information is the highest priority. Revelation is not a credible source for any of them. In practical terms, it is useless. I would argue that it is also useless in spiritual terms too. I stand by my claim that religious things ain’t as claimed. That is all I need to do really because that is all religious people do, claim stuff that may as well be hot air for all the probity it has.

What do egos have to do with it?

I don't abuse science but I do notice that much of science is changing as man finds more accurate ways to investigate and authenticate the things we have believed for years. If you were really reading what I write you would not find me trying to compare science and religion. “Religion is the opiate of the people”. I'll try not to bore you to much longer but what I wanted to get across before was each person on this Earth creates himself (his mind) with information that he personally chooses to believe. You can say your information is better or more sound or more stable than someone else's but of course thats because you chose that information to believe. No matter how many studies, or how rigorous the testing or the reputations of the scientists, knowledge is accepted or believed by faith unless it is performed personally or experienced personally. Think about some of the things in life you have chosen to believe and see how much of it you had first hand evidence and proof of its validity as given. You will find the greatest portion of knowledge is second hand at best! When knowledge is second hand it must be accepted or rejected by believing. In fairness

Yes by believing, but never by faith. If you examine your life, what one thing do you actually do on sheer blind faith? I would say it is a belief in gods or tarot card readings or astrological maps or alien probings. It is not taking medicine or betting on horses or showing optimism or believing that one is loved that are done on faith. Every single one is a conclusion based on the evidence we have collected over our life’s experience. You seem to have ignored my point about profession scientists, their reputations and their social contract with the public.

People do behave irrationally but that is just a function of the operation of their brains. No one would ever claim that natural selection has given us a brain that can see the world objectively. That was rather my point in fact. Religious beliefs are irrational, products of the human brain.

Stuart

June 7, 2009 at 7:09 am#159229

Participant

Second attempt…

Quote

When a person pleads in court that ‘god told him to’, is that a defense? It may be a request to be detained under the mental health act, actually! When a psychic offers police to help them with the location of a missing person, do they ask that person in because they really think he has psychic powers? When scientists consider what factors might be influencing an observed effect, do they call up a priest? These things are considered to be “just ain’t so” by three areas of public life where the quality of information is the highest priority. Revelation is not a credible source for any of them. In practical terms, it is useless. I would argue that it is also useless in spiritual terms too. I stand by my claim that religious things ain’t as claimed. That is all I need to do really because that is all religious people do, claim stuff that may as well be hot air for all the probity it has.

What do egos have to do with it?

Quote

Stuart

June 7, 2009 at 10:45 am#159230

Participant

Stuart: It takes faith to believe or disbelieve something that can't be proven. If I say there is God and you say there is no God but neither of us can prove our position, then we have both exercised faith in our unproven position.Neither of us know, we just believe. I don't mind calling faith believing if thats what you want but we are both learning things minute by munite that we accept for what ever reason, as truth or sound advice or worthy information to be believed, but its all by choice and mostly unproven heresay!! When you tell a friend you will meet him at the store at a certain time it is blind faith on your part that you can make it. A multitude of reasons could curtail or stop that event from happening. For me, thats faith! Thanks, TK

June 8, 2009 at 1:59 am#159231

WhatIsTrue

Participant

Quote (942767 @ June 04 2009,06:46)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ June 02 2009,15:56)

Marty,

Thanks for the earnest reply.

You wrote:

Quote

He paid the price for the first death or separation from God in that he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross.

The penalty for the second death he did not pay, and somenone who is not saved will pay this penalty himself.

I have highlighted the portion of your post that makes the least sense to me. When you say, “paid the price”, it's not clear exactly what you mean. I have rephrased the issue this way:

Quote

Try answering this question:

The price of sin is:

A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirely, (please specify)

Jesus paid for sin by:

A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirely, (please specify)

See if your two answers line up.

Hi WhatisTrue:

It appears to me that you are trying to rephrase the issue so that you can say that Jesus did not pay the price for sin.

All of humanity has sinned, and the penalty if one continues in sin without repenting is the destruction of one's soul by punishment according to the life that a person lived. This is called the second death or eternal separation from God. As I have stated Jesus did not pay the penalty for this second death.

From the first death or separation from God, a person is being called into a relationship with God through the sacrifice that God has provided for their sins. A person is saved because they have believed what God has done for them through the sacrifice of His Son, and have come to Him with a repentant heart.

Jesus suffered all the punishment that he suffered and died a condemned accused of those who crucified him of blasphemy, but God said he was not guilty of sin and raised him from the dead.

When someone is reconciled to God through the sacrifice of Jesus, he also dies unto sin and raised from the dead and declared not guilty of sin simply because one has believed that God has done this for him.

If Jesus had not been raised from the dead, there would be no accountabilty for men's sin, they would simply have lived and died, but now, men will have to give an account to God for the life they lived either by coming through him with a repentant heart and learning to obey Him in the body of Christ, or they will have to go through the second death and be punished for their sins because they chose not accept what He has done for them in favor of continuing in sin.

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Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

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Hbr 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Hbr 10:31 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I hope that this is clear. God said that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins, and you can either believe Him or not.

Love in Christ,
Marty

You wrote:

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It appears to me that you are trying to rephrase the issue so that you can say that Jesus did not pay the price for sin.

Actually, I phrase my questions to address a very specific point. Usually, when someone avoids answering my questions, it is because they don't want to address the actual point that I am making.

In your case, by not directly answering my questions, you appear to have composed a self-contradictory post.

As an example, you seem to be saying that the penalty for “unrepentant” sinners is destruction and that Jesus did not pay for this penalty. Then you say:

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From the first death or separation from God, a person is being called into a relationship with God through the sacrifice that God has provided for their sins.

So did God provide a sacrifice for sins or not? Is it a sacrifice for some sins, or only the sins of those who are repentant?

Furthermore, if the first death is simply separation from God, then don't we all pay that penalty ourselves? Shouldn't Jesus' sacrifice be ongoing separation, rather than a three day separation? And, why do we need Jesus's sacrifice at all if it is simply a matter of repentance?

You also wrote:

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If Jesus had not been raised from the dead, there would be no accountabilty for men's sin

This is a first. You appear to be saying that it was Jesus' resurrection that accounted for men's sins, whereas the bible seems to place much more emphasis on his death. It's almost as if you have created your own version of s
alvation theology solely for the purpose of not having to answer the question: Did Jesus stand in my place and take my penalty so that I could be considered guilt free?

If Jesus truly bore the sins of all of mankind, taking the penalty for those sins, I don't think that God would have made him king of kings. Do you?

June 8, 2009 at 7:33 am#159232