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The following is a question that I asked elsewhere, but it has yet to get a response. I thought that I might post it here to see if anyone else has any insights.
Quote What punishment awaits someone who is found guilty in God's court? Did Jesus pay that very same penalty? If not, I contend that he did not pay the full price, (i.e. the full ransom), for those whose place he is supposed to be taking.
For example, if a convicted murderer is sentenced to 25 years in prison, if I am to take his place, (i.e. bear his punishment), I must spend 25 years in prison. If I go to prison for a week and then go back to my normal life, I haven't completely fulfilled the proscribed punishment. Someone still needs to complete the terms of the punishment, whether it be me or him.
As a secondary issue, the bible says that the “wages of sin” is death. Yet all of us die, “saved” or not. Doesn't that mean that we essentially pay for our own sins when we die? If not, how is that Jesus was able to pay for our sins simply by dying?
Thanks for reading. Happy thinking!
Hi WIT,
Rom6
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Don't confuse the wages with the gift
Thanks Nick. That appears to address the secondary issue, but what about the primary issue.
Is the purpose of Jesus's death a ransom for sins or not? If not, what was the purpose of his death? If so:
Quote What punishment awaits someone who is found guilty in God's court? Did Jesus pay that very same penalty? If not, I contend that he did not pay the full price, (i.e. the full ransom), for those whose place he is supposed to be taking.
For example, if a convicted murderer is sentenced to 25 years in prison, if I am to take his place, (i.e. bear his punishment), I must spend 25 years in prison. If I go to prison for a week and then go back to my normal life, I haven't completely fulfilled the proscribed punishment. Someone still needs to complete the terms of the punishment, whether it be me or him.
Sin gives birth to death, so by paying the price for all sin by death, then all sin can be cleansed and he can ransom all death.
T8,
Quote Sin gives birth to death, so by paying the price for all sin by death, then all sin can be cleansed and he can ransom all death. What exactly is the price? Temporary death, like what Jesus experienced? If so, why is it that my own death isn't enough to pay for my own sins, and then I can subsequently be raised from the dead, like Jesus was?
Quote (Stu @ May 30 2009,07:32) How is it just that someone take the place of an imprisoned convict? Stuart
It's not just Stu, but it is an analogy for what Jesus did.I don't think that you'll get much of an argument from Christians that what happened to Jesus was an example of justice. But the whole sacrificial system, from Moses to Jesus, was based on the injustice of making something else, or someone else, pay for your personal misdeeds.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 30 2009,14:57) Quote (Stu @ May 30 2009,07:32) How is it just that someone take the place of an imprisoned convict? Stuart
It's not just Stu, but it is an analogy for what Jesus did.I don't think that you'll get much of an argument from Christians that what happened to Jesus was an example of justice. But the whole sacrificial system, from Moses to Jesus, was based on the injustice of making something else, or someone else, pay for your personal misdeeds.
OK, thanks. Naive-sounding question no.2 is why do some christians have a bee in their bonnet about Jews in Jerusalem allegedly calling for Jesus's execution? Surely the death of Jesus was a great thing and christians should be grateful to all those who called for it?As an aside, I have detected here at various times a derisory attitude to ancient Rome, usually expressed as condemnation of perceived decadence, but maybe it is the same opposition to those who supposedly put their guru to death. The irony would be that a Roman emperor, no less, saved christianity from probable extinction.
What do you think?
Stuart
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 30 2009,14:51) T8, Quote Sin gives birth to death, so by paying the price for all sin by death, then all sin can be cleansed and he can ransom all death. What exactly is the price? Temporary death, like what Jesus experienced? If so, why is it that my own death isn't enough to pay for my own sins, and then I can subsequently be raised from the dead, like Jesus was?
If you pay your own price, then you die.With what are you raised from the dead?
I look at it like a branch of leaf on a tree. When a branch is broken off the tree it whithers and dies. End of story.
Scripture talks of a grafting into the true vine, so that we can live.
T8 wrote:
Quote If you pay your own price, then you die. With what are you raised from the dead?
So, if you pay someone else's price, you don't die?
Again, if the punishment is the mere experience of death, then Jesus paid it, and so will I. If the punishment is permanent destruction, then it doesn't appear that Jesus paid it. Try answering this question, T8:
The price of sin is:
A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirelyThen answer this question:
Jesus paid for sin by:
A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirelySee if your two answers line up.
Quote (Stu @ May 30 2009,13:11) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 30 2009,14:57) Quote (Stu @ May 30 2009,07:32) How is it just that someone take the place of an imprisoned convict? Stuart
It's not just Stu, but it is an analogy for what Jesus did.I don't think that you'll get much of an argument from Christians that what happened to Jesus was an example of justice. But the whole sacrificial system, from Moses to Jesus, was based on the injustice of making something else, or someone else, pay for your personal misdeeds.
OK, thanks. Naive-sounding question no.2 is why do some christians have a bee in their bonnet about Jews in Jerusalem allegedly calling for Jesus's execution? Surely the death of Jesus was a great thing and christians should be grateful to all those who called for it?As an aside, I have detected here at various times a derisory attitude to ancient Rome, usually expressed as condemnation of perceived decadence, but maybe it is the same opposition to those who supposedly put their guru to death. The irony would be that a Roman emperor, no less, saved christianity from probable extinction.
What do you think?
Stuart
I don't think that I will speculate about what motivates certain Christians to dislike, or even hate, Jews. I am sure for some that it may be as you suggest, but for others it may have nothing to do with that at all. Hatred is often completely irrational.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 31 2009,06:30) Quote (Stu @ May 30 2009,13:11) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 30 2009,14:57) Quote (Stu @ May 30 2009,07:32) How is it just that someone take the place of an imprisoned convict? Stuart
It's not just Stu, but it is an analogy for what Jesus did.I don't think that you'll get much of an argument from Christians that what happened to Jesus was an example of justice. But the whole sacrificial system, from Moses to Jesus, was based on the injustice of making something else, or someone else, pay for your personal misdeeds.
OK, thanks. Naive-sounding question no.2 is why do some christians have a bee in their bonnet about Jews in Jerusalem allegedly calling for Jesus's execution? Surely the death of Jesus was a great thing and christians should be grateful to all those who called for it?As an aside, I have detected here at various times a derisory attitude to ancient Rome, usually expressed as condemnation of perceived decadence, but maybe it is the same opposition to those who supposedly put their guru to death. The irony would be that a Roman emperor, no less, saved christianity from probable extinction.
What do you think?
Stuart
I don't think that I will speculate about what motivates certain Christians to dislike, or even hate, Jews. I am sure for some that it may be as you suggest, but for others it may have nothing to do with that at all. Hatred is often completely irrational.
Would you agree that Paul's hatred of homosexuality is completely irrational?Stuart
Stu,
To the extent that Paul hates homosexuality, I would agree he's irrational. However, it's not clear that he personally hates homosexuality so much as he believes that God hates homosexuality.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2009,06:30) Hi WIT,
The penalty was not imprisonment but death.
He died for all that we might find life.
Who mentioned imprisonment?Nick, try answering the two questions I posed to T8. That might make your point of view clearer to me.
Quote The price of sin is: A) The experience of death
B) Permanent death (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Something else entirelyThen answer this question:
Jesus paid for sin by:
A) Experiencing death
B) Permanently dying (i.e permanent destruction)
C) Some other way entirelySee if your two answers line up.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2009,16:38) Hi WIT,
When did you become lost in the theological maze?
You are mistaking an intelligent and critical consideration, albeit limited by a faith position, for being lost. As Paul has immunised you against questioning dogma I agree it may seem a complicated thing to you.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 31 2009,11:38) Hi WIT,
When did you become lost in the theological maze?
I see that you are still incapable of answering direct questions.Go and meditate on 1 Peter 3:15. You appear to fall very, very short.
Hi WIT,
Those who muse and fiddle about in human theories get totally befuddled because the theories are limited by our blindness and utterly incapable of encompassing our God. Abide in the scriptures.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 01 2009,16:10) Hi WIT,
Those who muse and fiddle about in human theories get totally befuddled because the theories are limited by our blindness and utterly incapable of encompassing our God. Abide in the scriptures.
You prefer the decisions made for you by those who decided the canon to the decisions you make for yourself. Who is living your life?Stuart
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