Salvation and Christian Theology

[kejonn]

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1Jn 4:18 There is no fear {“phobos”} in love; but perfect love casts out fear {“phobos”}, because fear {“phobos”} involves punishment, and the one who fears {“phobeo”} is not perfected in love.

Eph 5:21 and be subject to one another in the fear {“phobos”} of Christ.

2Co 7:15 His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear {“phobos”} and trembling.

Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe {“eulabeia”};

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
So the fear that involves the fear of punishment
is not godly fear.

[Mandy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,09:23)

Hi KJ, So the fear that involves the fear of punishment is not godly fear.

It isn't?

There are certainly behaviors I would like to feed if it were not for the “Godly” fear in me of eternal punishment for such “sins”.

[kejonn]

There is nothing in iJn4:18 of the fear of punishment. Rather, it says fear involves punishment. And it uses “phobos” for fear, just like other verses that use “phobos” of God and Christ. So the logical conclusion is that (1) since there is no “phobos” in love, and we are told to “phobos” God, God must not be about love according to the bible (2) fearing God and Christ involves punishment.

Hey, don't blame me — blame scripture. Its in there.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,09:23)

Hi KJ, So the fear that involves the fear of punishment is not godly fear.

Hi KJ,
So because awe and reverence cannot be discriminated from fear in the greek you would use this situation to mock scripture and try to confuse what is simple?

[kejonn]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,21:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,09:23) Hi KJ, So the fear that involves the fear of punishment is not godly fear. Hi KJ, So because awe and reverence cannot be discriminated from fear in the greek you would use this situation to mock scripture and try to confuse what is simple?

Awe is not fear Nick. Sorry if you think it is, but it is not. Two different words. I can be in awe of a star but I don't fear it. I can be in awe of someone's athletic skills, but I do not fear them.

There should be no fear of God. He is not a divine tyrant no matter how the bible portrays Him as such.

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Indeed they are in English.
1Peter
Chapter 3
15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear[5401]:

Number 5401
Transliteration:
phobos {fob'-os}
Word Origin:
from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear)
TDNT:
9:189,1272
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
fear 41, terror 3, misc 3

Total: 47
Definition:
fear, dread, terror
that which strikes terror
reverence for one's husband

[kejonn]

So God strikes terror in you Nick? How can the God of love strike terror in you?

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Is that God not yet your Father?

[kejonn]

My father never made me terrified. He was not a child molester or serial killer. You have an odd view of a loving God.

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
We know our Father God
but you have to invent one?

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 15 2008,06:59)

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,04:19) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 14 2008,17:24) Hi Nick, I understand.  But the question is how do we determine which words are from God and which were the writings of the not-so-diligent men?  Do we rely solely on the spirit of God to show us?  That doesn't seem too reliable since the spirit of God tells folks many different and opposing things? You see my direct concern? Mandy!  I like to give my 2 cents to this too. As far as scriptures to be false I have found that if there are more then one to compare with, it is usually right. Like the preexisting of Jesus. You have the scriptures in Colosians and Rev. to prove it. On the other hand the one scripture I can think of as standing by itself is in 1 John 5:7 But mainly I too depend on the Holy Spirit showing me. For instant when first somebody told me about the preexisting of Jesus, I said no way. But every time the subject came up God showed me, until I gave up and believed in it. You know we all grow in different ways. Peace and Love Mrs. Genesis says that there is a solid firmament above the earth.  Nowhere else does it say there isn't, and indeed when we lauch rockets we don't have to mount a drill on the front to get through any such firmament.  How does scripture provide truth here? For the religious faith is the trump card that is pulled out when scripture is challenged.  Ironically the opposite is done too: 'well you don't have to believe it on fatih, there it is in scripture'.   I want to know exactly about “the Holy Spirit showing me” because I think you are bluffing.  You have not been 'shown' anything at all, rather you have interpreted some event or fact as somehow representing revelation, when it could mean anything else, or nothing at all.  How did god 'show you' about the 'preexistence of Jesus' (whatever value that has)? Stuart

God showed the scriptures over and over again to me when ever I was reading. It always came up again. God does work in mystical ways. We have God's Holy Spirit and that my friend you do not understand, because you do not have it. Until you do, you simply cant know.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Stu]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,14:32)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,09:23) Hi KJ, So the fear that involves the fear of punishment is not godly fear. Hi KJ, So because awe and reverence cannot be discriminated from fear in the greek you would use this situation to mock scripture and try to confuse what is simple?

Is the concept you are describing more like islamic submission than fear?

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,17:35)

God showed the scriptures over and over again to me when ever I was reading.  It always came up again. God does work in mystical ways. We have God's Holy Spirit and that my friend you do not understand, because you do not have it. Until you do, you simply cant know. Peace and Love Mrs.

I think just telling me that I haven't 'got it' without being able to explain what 'it' is, just demonstrates that 'it' is bluff. Can you do better than just dismissing me as incapable of something you can do?

You said (I think) that if one verse is unclear then there is another that covers it. So you are happy that there are ideas in scripture (especially in the OT) that are described only once and can be shown to be wrong?

Stuart

[Stu]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,15:42)

Hi KJ, We know our Father God but you have to invent one?

Hasn't everyone invented their own gods (except non-believers who don't need them)?

Stuart

[seek and you will find]

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 15 2008,18:35)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,15:42) Hi KJ, We know our Father God but you have to invent one? Hasn't everyone invented their own gods (except non-believers who don't need them)? Stuart

So if you don't need them what are you doing here? Why are you here to discuss God,, when you don't believe in Him, you do not make sense to me.

Peace and Love Mrs.

[Stu]

Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,18:45)

Quote (Stu @ Mar. 15 2008,18:35) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,15:42) Hi KJ, We know our Father God but you have to invent one? Hasn't everyone invented their own gods (except non-believers who don't need them)? Stuart So if you don't need them what are you doing here? Why are you here to discuss God,, when you don't believe in Him, you do not make sense to me. Peace and Love Mrs.

It is true that there are 10,000 different forms of christianity. I think that can be further divided to give 2.1 billion christian churches, one inside each christian's head, and there are 2.1 billion personal gods, one for each of those churches. There is no way to know what any of those gods want, so they must all be slightly different.

Stuart

[kejonn]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,22:42)

Hi KJ, We know our Father God but you have to invent one?

The same one that told people that it was OK to rape a virgin as long as the rapist paid the dad 50 shekels and married her? The same one that said it was a sin for a woman to have a menstrual cycle? The same one that punishes ten generations of a family because of one illegitimate birth? The same one who said that a man could ditch his wife if he thought she wasn't a virgin before they married? The same one that said to stone unruly children to death?

That Father God?

You are right, I'd rather invent my own.

Seriously, if you can't see that the above is an invention of primitive Jews, then you must accept a God — who never changes — saying the above was sanctioned by Him.

[NickHassan]

Hi KJ,
Are you more enlightened than the prophets of God?

[kejonn]

If they wrote that stuff, sure.

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