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Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 14 2008,08:14) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2008,15:11) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 14 2008,08:03) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 13 2008,14:48) Hi mandy,
So far such need for knowledge has led many on this site to insult God.
Oh, and for the most part this is totally offbase. Most are not insulting God by pointing out the various problems with a human book wrote in the prehistoric viewpoint.That would be like saying you personally hate an author just because you did not enoy the book. Or closer yet, saying you insult your wife by telling her the burnt casserole was not tasty. You still love her the same, do you not?
Hi KJ,
The book was not sent for our enjoyment but to offer us rescue from the wrath of God.
You just proved my point. Mandy, take note: its about fear, just as I said.Try a human relationship based on fear. They call it abuse. Why do you want to view God that way?
Ya, I pretty much fear God, I'm sorry. It's a reverent fear. Mainly because I don't know everything and I could be severely wrong on some conclusions that I come to. I definitely want forgiveness and blessings in my life. And some fear in a parent/child relationship is healthy. It keeps the child on track and away from danger.But I hear what you are saying and am evaluating what I think about the whole thing. I appreciate your point of view.
Below is a quote from Nick on a thread where I cannot post:
Hi,
Those who are holding the scriptures up to public mockery are also despising the Spirit of God Who wrote them. They would not do that if the feared our God and His warning about speaking against His Spirit.************************************
Hi Nick,
I've asked you this before but I don't recall if you answered or not – you say here that the Spirit wrote the Word of God – but what of the known errors? Did the Spirit write those too? My point is, how do we know which words the Spirit wrote and which words man included?Why should we fear asking and wondering about this when it is not clear? What are your thoughts on the above question, if you care to answer. Thanks.
Hi Mandy,
God wrote the original manuscripts through men.
Others have not quite shown the diligence required in copying them.Hi Nick,
I understand. But the question is how do we determine which words are from God and which were the writings of the not-so-diligent men? Do we rely soley on the spirit of God to show us? That doesn't seem too reliable since the spirit of God tells folks many differnt and opposing things?
You see my direct concern?
Hi mandy,
You need to study about the manuscripts and sort out which manuscripts are chosen and why.But you say those who are holding the scriptures up for public mockery show no fear of the Spirit who wrote them……how is that a fair statement/judgement if you must sort through the various manuscripts to find the one that is the least flawed (if that is even possible).
The bottom line is the written Word is still flawed, it is just to which degree. My question still stands, how do you know which are the words of God and those that are of the flawed men who jotted the words down?
If I'm going to fear something…..I at least would like to know why I am fearing it.
If I bring scripture up for a critical evaluation I don't want it to be said of me that I am not fearing the Spirit who wrote the words…..because how do we know the Spirit wrote the particular words (passages of scripture) that are being discussed? You see my point, I'm sure. There is no getting around this. The answer is that we cannot know for sure which words are which! So why do we have to fear offending the Spirit if we can't know? It doesn't seem logical, or fair.
Hi mandy,
Why would you think much of what is written is flawed just because you have found a few that confuse you?
Do you think a loving God would abandon you in confusion?
He is perfectly capable of looking after His truth.Ps 12
6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Ps119
72The law of thy mouth is better unto me than thousands of gold and silver.
…
89For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.
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103How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!104Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way.
105Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
…
140Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.
…
151Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
…
167My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
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174I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.Nick,
This is going to be harsh, but so be it. Do you have a daughter? If a man raped your daughter, would it be OK for the rapist to come to you, pay you 50 shekels (or the NZ modern equivalent) and then marry your daughter?
Remember, the bible says God never changes. Therefore, He doesn't change His mind about justice. The bible says this was God's justice at one time. The never changing God should still have the same justice.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,07:59) Hi mandy,
One sin is unforgiveable.
Abhor the attitudes of those who do not fear our God.
Nick to disagree is not to have a lack of fear for the Almighty. I certainly do, what I question is how God's will is portrayed in what we call scripture. No one, yourself included, can support how salvation is supposedly dispensed other then to say that it is God's will so don't question it. Most then believe in an illogical and unfair method of dispensing eternal reward and punishment, because they are told that is God's plan. The Almighty would have a better plan, perfection would not lend itself to such inequity and chance, as you believe in.Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 13 2008,22:54) Ya, I pretty much fear God, I'm sorry. It's a reverent fear. Mainly because I don't know everything and I could be severely wrong on some conclusions that I come to. I definitely want forgiveness and blessings in my life. And some fear in a parent/child relationship is healthy. It keeps the child on track and away from danger. But I hear what you are saying and am evaluating what I think about the whole thing. I appreciate your point of view.
Is fear the proper word though, Mandy? Check out this link, it has much I can agree with: Fear and Hatred. Here are some good excerpts- The above points out certain truths, that upon examination and contemplation, are self-evident. Fear is always the cause of hatred, and thus of hateful acts. He, who does not fear, cannot hate or commit hateful acts. He who has dominance upon another by virtue of superiority, cannot fear and thus hate that other. His only relationship with an inferior other is always based on dominance and therefore, if any relationship originating in the superior exists between the superior and the inferior, it must be on the basis of the desire of the superior for the inferior.
Goodness seeks no harm in any way. Harm can only be a response from fear, hatred or desire, all of which are inferior to goodness. Moreover, goodness does not express dominance but friendship, for dominance is the relation of one desiring to the object of its desire, while friendship is a relationship based on trust and goodness.
Thus, we can say that there are certain emotions that can be assigned to the created and certain qualities and attitudes that can be assigned to the creator. The created, either the prey or the predator, has emotions based on either fear and hatred, or on dominance and desire. The creator has innate goodness, expressed not through dominance, but through friendship. Thus, a creator should counsel, convince, edify, improve, lift, teach, reform and rehabilitate and not command, condemn, punish, separate and torture.
Moreover, may God express Her/His Goodness, by declaring Her/His commands, orders, under threat of punishment and torture? Is not this expressing dominance, rather than friendship. Is not this concept of God that of a predator God, rather than a God of Goodness? Is it not obvious that a concept of God, which pictures Her/Him as ordering hateful acts, is a concept based on fear, meaning that it reflects a weak prey God, afraid of harm?
Even more, why would a God of goodness demand, worship, sacrifice, veneration or praise? These things would please the emotions of someone desiring a relationship for a benefit. God is Goodness and is beyond all that. Since it is obvious from the above that there are quite a number of conceptions of God, that cannot possibly be right, isn't it also obvious then, that the religions of man, which posit these erred conceptions, cannot be of God and that therefore God is independent from religions per se, that is, religion is man made and is, but a tool to attempt to perceive the Nature of God?
In other words, God to be God, has to be devoid of a number of things like fear, hatred, desire and the urge to dominate or express Her/His dominance. Rather, God must be Goodness itself and express this Goodness, not through a master/slave relationship, nor through a mighty/weak relationship, but through a friendship relationship. Any other type of conception of God infers a God that is not a superior being, but one that is just as fallible and human as his creatures; a God made in man's image.
Here's another on fear Mandy, from The Paradox of the Freedom to Choose and the Inevitable End
- It is equally apparent that evil cannot be defeated by punishment. The fear of punishment may induce a person to hide his evil inclinations, and not express them in word or action. But the inclination towards evil would still exist in his mind. Therefore punishment cannot truly defeat evil. It only suppresses its expression while the fear of punishment exists. Once that fear is removed, the inclination would again express itself in thought word and action. And evil would still be with us.
Einstein said (from http://www.vohuman.org/Article/A%20Friendly%20Universe.htm
- “With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions — fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this state of existence understanding of causal connections is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates illusory beings more or less analogous to itself on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend. Thus one tries to secure the favor of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, . . . . . propitiates them or makes them well disposed toward a mortal. In this sense, I am speaking of a religion of fear.”
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 14 2008,17:24) Hi Nick, I understand. But the question is how do we determine which words are from God and which were the writings of the not-so-diligent men? Do we rely solely on the spirit of God to show us? That doesn't seem too reliable since the spirit of God tells folks many different and opposing things?
You see my direct concern?
Mandy! I like to give my 2 cents to this too. As far as scriptures to be false I have found that if there are more then one to compare with, it is usually right. Like the preexisting of Jesus. You have the scriptures in Colosians and Rev. to prove it. On the other hand the one scripture I can think of as standing by itself is in
1 John 5:7
But mainly I too depend on the Holy Spirit showing me. For instant when first somebody told me about the preexisting of Jesus, I said no way. But every time the subject came up God showed me, until I gave up and believed in it. You know we all grow in different ways.Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Mandy,
The fear of God is THE BEGINNING of wisdom.
Most do not pass GO.But for those who have obeyed Him and become reborn it is not a realtionship of fear but of love that develops. We can never lose our deep respect for Him and His authority over us but like Jesus we can confidently approach the throne of grace in prayer and say
“Abba Father..”
Heb10
22Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.23Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;)
1Jn3
20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
1Jn4
18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.- Act 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria enjoyed peace, being built up; and going on in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it continued to increase.
Act 13:16 Paul stood up, and motioning with his hand said, “Men of Israel, and you who fear God, listen:
Act 13:26 “Brethren, sons of Abraham's family, and those among you who fear God, to us the message of this salvation has been sent.
2Co 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest to God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.
2Co 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
2Co 7:15 His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling.
Eph 5:21 and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ.
Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
1Pe 2:17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.
Rev 11:18 “And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Rev 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”
Knowing there is so much fear of God (and Jesus, see above) how does this relate to
- 1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Can't be both, since the writer here says that fear involves punishment.
Hi Kj,
Godly fear is not as men would regard fear.
Heb12
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,04:19) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 14 2008,17:24) Hi Nick, I understand. But the question is how do we determine which words are from God and which were the writings of the not-so-diligent men? Do we rely solely on the spirit of God to show us? That doesn't seem too reliable since the spirit of God tells folks many different and opposing things?
You see my direct concern?
Mandy! I like to give my 2 cents to this too. As far as scriptures to be false I have found that if there are more then one to compare with, it is usually right. Like the preexisting of Jesus. You have the scriptures in Colosians and Rev. to prove it. On the other hand the one scripture I can think of as standing by itself is in
1 John 5:7
But mainly I too depend on the Holy Spirit showing me. For instant when first somebody told me about the preexisting of Jesus, I said no way. But every time the subject came up God showed me, until I gave up and believed in it. You know we all grow in different ways.Peace and Love Mrs.
Genesis says that there is a solid firmament above the earth. Nowhere else does it say there isn't, and indeed when we lauch rockets we don't have to mount a drill on the front to get through any such firmament. How does scripture provide truth here?For the religious faith is the trump card that is pulled out when scripture is challenged. Ironically the opposite is done too: 'well you don't have to believe it on fatih, there it is in scripture'. I want to know exactly about “the Holy Spirit showing me” because I think you are bluffing. You have not been 'shown' anything at all, rather you have interpreted some event or fact as somehow representing revelation, when it could mean anything else, or nothing at all. How did god 'show you' about the 'preexistence of Jesus' (whatever value that has)?
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,13:54) Hi Kj,
Godly fear is not as men would regard fear.
Heb12
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Fear is fear. Use a different word if you want to convey a different thought.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,13:54) Hi Kj,
Godly fear is not as men would regard fear.
Heb12
28Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
Besides, modern versions translate this more appropriately- Heb 12:28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe;
Most of the verses I listed above use either “phobeo” or “phobus”, where we get the word “phobia”. Hebrews 12:28 does not use the same base word.
You've heard of phobias, right? Basically, the bible says you should have a good ol' phobia of God
.
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