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Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2008,13:58) Jesus allegedly demanded 77-fold forgiveness. In my experience that amount of compassion is more likely in anyone but a bible-believing christian.
OUCH!Quote (Not3in1 @ Feb. 17 2008,17:38) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2008,13:58) Jesus allegedly demanded 77-fold forgiveness. In my experience that amount of compassion is more likely in anyone but a bible-believing christian.
OUCH!
More likely, not exclusively!Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2008,13:58) Hi 942767 Quote I don't believe that it is right for any one to force any other human being to do any thing. If any thing is done because because they are being forced to do it, it is not coming from their heart, and therefore, the motives are not their own.
Completely agree. Think of all the atheists sitting in church, too cowed by the social pressure of those sitting around them to openly admit their complete disbelief.Quote However, it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children what they believe to be the truth. After they leave the roost then they can decide if what they have been taught is the truth or not.
Why? Who says? Children should certainly be given the skills they need to discover truth for themselves, and to interact in an appropriate way with others. What actually happens in fundamentalist households often is that the children are not taught how to distinguish truth from fantasy, they are just given the religious ‘truth’ that their parents have been told to give them. What chance do these young people have to “decide if what they have been taught is the truth or not”?Quote A dictator does not give you a choice. God gives you a choice. If you want to reject His love for you, and desire destruction which comes from the consequence of sin that is your foolish choice.
We have established that god actually gives no choice, the ‘option’ being do it my way or you’re toast. That attitude I find reflected in christians, who are forgiving and treating of others as they would be treated up to the point where someone just goes that one step too far against the belief system; then the attitude is quickly soured. No interest in forgiveness, no more Mr Nice Guy. Jesus allegedly demanded 77-fold forgiveness. In my experience that amount of compassion is more likely in anyone but a bible-believing christian.Quote If you desire to give an account for your life to God based on your own works, that is your choice, but you will have to give an account for the life that you lived. It is your life do with it what you want.
I have said before that religion is a good option for those too dim to make meaning for their own lives. That might seem a jaded view of humanity but it is a challenge to really consider how you came to be the way you are. If I were to meet your god he would be in for my best effort at displaying utter contempt. I do not account to my parents for the way I live my life independently of them. I am very lucky to have had their unconditional love and support for the choices I have made. How does that sit against the character of a god that will demand such an account?Quote However, you cannot continue to live in God's house if you continue to persist in sin.
I don’t ‘sin’. I don’t recognise that word. I don’t live in ‘god’s house’ based on the conclusions I make about his non-existence.Quote Therefore, this world is temporary and God is calling those who choose to continue to live in His house into a relationship with Him, and asking us to go into the world sharing the good news of the gospel out of His and our love for humanity.
I choose not to believe that fantasy is reality and vice-versa.Quote When I died, I died to sin or to my selfish interests in order that I give my life in service to my God by letting all of humanity that will hear know that God loves them and he desires the very best for every individual. There is nothing more important or more satisfying than living my life to please my God.
You are dead?? I didn’t realise what a slave-driver your god is!Quote What is a “living a good life” mean to you?
Not living a lie. Helping others to find happiness. Contributing to the common good. Encouraging others to express their humanity, provided that does not mean that others will suffer as a result. Appreciating the astounding fact of my birth and taking on the challenge of using the brief window of history that I have to work out how the universe works and what makes other people tick. I could go on…Volunteering for intellectual slavery is not a good way to spend this one precious life we each have, in my opinion.
Stuart
Hi Stu:My commision is to go into all of the world and share the gospel, which is good news, and I have shared with you that God loves you and He has given His only begotten Son as a propitiation for your sins. If you choose to reject His love for you, you have the right to do so. It is not God's will nor purpose to destroy any one, but if you choose not to be reconciled to God, you are destroying yourself by that decision.
Well, as you have said, you do not believe that fantasy, and so, in essence, you are calling me a liar, but the truth will certainly be made manifest one way or the other.
I choose to serve God out of my love for Him and for humanity.
I don't believe that I am going to convince you of the truth by what I say. Hopefully, God will bring someone whose life God has changed from the inside out through faith in His Word. The life that a genuine Christian lives is the best testimony that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ is true.
I desire God's best for you.
Hi 94,
I think Stu has written off his chances of salvation for some reason or another. He has gone past despair and now can only be comforted with the thought of closing the door in the face of othersQuote (kejonn @ Feb. 18 2008,14:09) Have you ever thought that many do not know what they need to be saved from?
Yes, but I for one am willing to show them or explain it to them if they are willing to listen.Hi 942767
Quote My commision is to go into all of the world and share the gospel, which is good news, and I have shared with you that God loves you and He has given His only begotten Son as a propitiation for your sins. If you choose to reject His love for you, you have the right to do so. It is not God's will nor purpose to destroy any one, but if you choose not to be reconciled to God, you are destroying yourself by that decision.
That is just arrogant, patronising nonsense. What’s more they are empty words. I have no use for the concept of sin, why do you waste your breath using that word on me? The effect on a large number of people of reading the gospels, even with a genuinely open mind, is that they are not good news but repellant. I did not ask your imaginary friend to forsake his son to judicial execution for my sake. I don’t need anyone to die for me. If you want to make a big deal out of mythology, that’s your choice, but don’t pretend it makes me any less of a person that I can see through the illusion Why don’t you turn your keen sense of who is self-destructing on the state of your own intellectual well-being and make a pronouncement about the state of destruction or otherwise?Quote Well, as you have said, you do not believe that fantasy, and so, in essence, you are calling me a liar, but the truth will certainly be made manifest one way or the other.
I don’t think I am calling you a liar. If you were to bang on about something like creationism, which can be shown to be wrong, then I would be justified in doing so. I can’t prove that you are wrong about your bizarre claims for the supernatural so I just say that if you make extraordinary claims you better be able to back them up, and you can’t. That is more delusion than deception. The truth will not be ‘made manifest’ if I am right.Quote I choose to serve God out of my love for Him and for humanity.
I think you put your imaginary friend first, which is not love for humanity. If you really believe the concepts of ‘sin’ as articulated in your holy book then you don’t have a very well-developed understanding of humanity, in my opinion. Of course it could be the meme talking, with the real, human you being suppressed underneath.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MemeI don't believe that I am going to convince you of the truth by what I say.
By all our normal standards of truth, it is not truth. It is assertion.Quote Hopefully, God will bring someone whose life God has changed from the inside out through faith in His Word. The life that a genuine Christian lives is the best testimony that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ is true. I desire God's best for you.
I’m not sure if you appreciate just how many christians I have spoken with in depth about christianity. I have not met one who is able to articulate a balanced view of the positives and negatives of the faith. If you say there are no negatives then I’m afraid I would lump you in with all the lying creationists!Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2008,11:47) Hi 94,
I think Stu has written off his chances of salvation for some reason or another. He has gone past despair and now can only be comforted with the thought of closing the door in the face of others
Like kejonn says, what do I need saving from? If your god is a just being then I will be saved from his followers bothering me. Maybe even he wants to be saved from them bothering him!Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 18 2008,14:09) Have you ever thought that many do not know what they need to be saved from?
I need to be saved from the danger I pose that I may break some of the christian clubhouse rules. It's much easier to run a theocracy if the masses can be made to feel a bit humble; in the case of Catholicism a bit guilty, or in the example of army training be completely broken down before being rebuilt in the 'right' image. It is all about power and little about truth.Would Jesus have made a good sergeant-major?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2008,18:05) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 18 2008,14:09) Have you ever thought that many do not know what they need to be saved from? I need to be saved from the danger I pose that I may break some of the christian clubhouse rules.
I'm beginning to think that I need saving from such negativity!
t8 There should be a few more `Believers Only' forums at heavens.net otherwise every thread will be filled with the same-old, same-old.
Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 18 2008,20:03) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2008,18:05) Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 18 2008,14:09) Have you ever thought that many do not know what they need to be saved from? I need to be saved from the danger I pose that I may break some of the christian clubhouse rules.
I'm beginning to think that I need saving from such negativity!t8 There should be a few more `Believers Only' forums at heavens.net otherwise every thread will be filled with the same-old, same-old.
You are asking t8, the master of 'same old same old', to stop it by banishing non-believers?! I should forgive you for you know not what you do.Is your faith so weak that it needs protecting from the real world?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2008,20:09) Is your faith so weak that it needs protecting from the real world?
No.I live in the real world where I communicate with my fellow man in mostly positive ways.
I go to a restaurant to enjoy a good meal – not to eat a lousy meal.
I go to a night club to enjoy a good night out – not to have a lousy time.
I join a Christian forum to be encouraged and enjoy the company of Christians – not to have to defend my faith 24/7 because one or two don't believe and won't accept that others have different points of view.
I'm just finding it tiresome.
Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 18 2008,20:28) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2008,20:09) Is your faith so weak that it needs protecting from the real world?
No.I live in the real world where I communicate with my fellow man in mostly positive ways.
I go to a restaurant to enjoy a good meal – not to eat a lousy meal.
I go to a night club to enjoy a good night out – not to have a lousy time.
I join a Christian forum to be encouraged and enjoy the company of Christians – not to have to defend my faith 24/7 because one or two don't believe and won't accept that others have different points of view.
I'm just finding it tiresome.
t8 has articulated his view that this is a public forum and all views are considered. The fact that he has then made a special Boy Scouts' section to protect the indefensible is somewhat puzzling, but at least he has stated the principle of openess.You have no obligation to respond to me. Why do you, if you find it tiresome?
Stuart
When you invade almost every thread there's no avoiding your posts.
Anyway, you win. I'm off.
God bless!
I don't get this because those who have a struggle with Stu tend to engage him rather than staying in the areas he cannot post. Its like choosing the smoking section of a restaurant as a non-smoker and then complaining about the smoke. No pun intended on the smoking analogy
.Hi H,
Stu is a gentleman pickpocket who will rob the faith of those who are new and unaware of his motives.
His own bitterness and hopelessness is disguised in worldly charm as he steals your treasures.
Appealing to intellectual vanity he decries and despises the simplicity of faith.
He offers nothing good so do not listen to his mocking hatred.
It is God he wants to punish with you as his trophy.Quote No. I live in the real world where I communicate with my fellow man in mostly positive ways.
I go to a restaurant to enjoy a good meal – not to eat a lousy meal.
I go to a night club to enjoy a good night out – not to have a lousy time.
I join a Christian forum to be encouraged and enjoy the company of Christians – not to have to defend my faith 24/7 because one or two don't believe and won't accept that others have different points of view.
I'm just finding it tiresome.
Heavens;
One aspect of Christ that I've always found remarkable was how little he tried to pursuade people to follow him. Those who were intent on rejecting him found no resistance from Jesus. Even those that wanted to follow him were given warnings about how difficult it may be to follow Christ. So if someone is intent on rejecting the gospel, so be it. Let them waste someone else's time. You'll never find where Jesus went back a second time to someone that rejected him. You'll find them coming to him, but only under false pretenses to undermine the truth. There pretty easy to spot.
Hi cato, you state:
Quote Premise: Most Christians do not believe in or are silent on pre-existence of human souls. . . .Nothing in the universe goes from infinite to finite or from finite to infinite. How then can one finite existence then lead to an infinite, eternal, reward or punishment? Pre-existence of human souls is not taught in the Bible. That why there's a silence on it. That's why there's no scriptures mentioned here.
The late James E. Talmage, an apostle of the Mormons, wrote about the “many scriptural proofs that the spirits of mankind existed prior to their earthly probation—a condition in which these intelligences lived and exercised their free agency before they assumed bodily tabernacles.”
True, Jesus, the Son of God, existed in heaven before he lived on earth. (John 6:38, 62) In fact, this is what led Talmage to write that “it is consistent to infer that if His earthly birth was the union of a preexistent or antemortal spirit with a mortal body such also is the birth of every member of the human family.”
While in heaven, Jesus had always been obedient to his Father. Thus his earthly sojourn was not designed to place him on “earthly probation,” as though he were a sinner. On the contrary, he was a perfect, sinless human, able to redeem sinners, able to “give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matthew 20:28) So Jesus is one of a kind, the “one mediator between God and men.” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) His assignment of service on earth was temporary. After completing it, he could return to his real home, to heaven.
But in view of these facts, can we speak of heaven as being our home in the same sense as he could?
In Human Form But Not Human
In times past, invisible spirit creatures, angels, have materialized visible human bodies at God’s direction. (Genesis 19:1; Luke 1:26-28) But in the days of Noah, some of them did so on their own initiative. Why? For the selfish purpose of enjoying sexual relations with women. (Genesis 6:2) Since this was not God’s arrangement for angels, their step was one of disobedience. The Bible calls them “angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6) Clearly, then, heaven is the “proper dwelling place” for angels, even as the earth is for humans.—Compare Psalm 115:16; 1 Corinthians 15:39, 40.
Jesus actually “became flesh” when he came to earth. (John 1:14) Not so these angels. They simply materialized human bodies that they deserted at the time of the Flood in order to return to the spirit realm. Because of their revolt, however, God confined “them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.” No longer could they materialize fleshly bodies to live on earth.—2 Peter 2:4.
So the examples of Jesus and the materialized angels cannot properly be used to prove that humans existed in the spirit realm “prior to their earthly probation,” as the Mormons teach. But would this rule out having lived previous lives as humans here on earth?
God’s Purpose in Creating the Soul
Actually, the key to determining whether man has lived before or not—either in the spirit realm or on earth—is to determine whether he has an immortal soul or not. Genesis 2:7 describes the creation of the first human soul this way: “And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.”
Notice that the soul is not described as something distinct and separate from the lifeless body. In fact, only after God energized the lifeless body with “the breath of life,” thus triggering it into breathing, did the soul Adam come to life. When breathing stops and the life-force ceases, the body once again becomes lifeless. Man “goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (Psalm 146:4) He must await the day of resurrection to live again. (John 5:28, 29) Meanwhile, there can be “no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom” in the death state. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) Simply stated, the soul is dead.
Dozens of Bible texts show the soul to be destructible, thus plainly ruling out human immortality of the soul. (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Psalm 22:29; Acts 3:23; Revelation 16:3) With the soul dead, what is left to pass on to live again in another body? Besides, why would there even be a need for anything to pass on? When God created human souls, he called them “very good.” This he could do because they were created perfect, designed to live upon the earth forever. (Genesis 1:31) They were souls that needed no purification; they were already morally pure. Neither were they souls that needed to die in order to live again. Eternal life within the framework of their original existence on earth was their prospect.
The Bible’s answer to whether you have ever lived before—either in the spirit realm or on the earth—is quite clear.
Quote Second, if the stakes are so incredibly high for our one life, then God certainly loves some of us much more then others. One is born to loving Christian parents who teach them, love and nurture them, and surround them with others who believe likewise and encourage and help them stay on path. Another is born in a devout Muslim family and lives the same, but for his faith. Another is born unto a child soldier in Africa, is taught to kill from an early age and in turn is killed as a young man. While all may have an opportunity for salvation, don't try and tell me the chances are the same. Why would the odds be so stacked against some. If we are all loved and we all have just one life then it is clearly unfair. Jesus told his disciples to:
MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””And for the “conclusion of the system of things” he fortold this:
MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”Being born in a so called Christian family does not mean you will be a true follower of Christ. No matter where you live, the good news will reach you. You will be given a fair chance.
Quote
Third, if a loving God created us and loved us would he throw us into a life that in essence becomes a test that ultimately condemns the vast majority of souls? Knowing that God is omniscient would he create a system that would lead to this? I feel that God blessed us with the capacity to be parents so we could understand at some basic level what God feels about us. Can any of us who are parents comtemplate eternally destroying or damning our own children. Punish them when unruly sure, but to punish or destroy them eternally, I don't think so.I believe that God can see into the future but doesn't always necessarily do this. I also believe that he didn't want nor desire for us to suffer and that he immediately took actions to remedy it. (Gen 3:15)
And I don't believe God would eternally burn his children any more than a parent would put a chi
ld's hand on the stove burner when he sins.
But, for the sake of the righteous, to be just to those ones, the ones who actually love their father, he must in all fairness, remove the wicked. This doesn't mean torturing them. It means removing them.PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”““For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart.”
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 18 2008,17:48) Hi 942767 Quote My commision is to go into all of the world and share the gospel, which is good news, and I have shared with you that God loves you and He has given His only begotten Son as a propitiation for your sins. If you choose to reject His love for you, you have the right to do so. It is not God's will nor purpose to destroy any one, but if you choose not to be reconciled to God, you are destroying yourself by that decision.
That is just arrogant, patronising nonsense. What’s more they are empty words. I have no use for the concept of sin, why do you waste your breath using that word on me? The effect on a large number of people of reading the gospels, even with a genuinely open mind, is that they are not good news but repellant. I did not ask your imaginary friend to forsake his son to judicial execution for my sake. I don’t need anyone to die for me. If you want to make a big deal out of mythology, that’s your choice, but don’t pretend it makes me any less of a person that I can see through the illusion Why don’t you turn your keen sense of who is self-destructing on the state of your own intellectual well-being and make a pronouncement about the state of destruction or otherwise?Quote Well, as you have said, you do not believe that fantasy, and so, in essence, you are calling me a liar, but the truth will certainly be made manifest one way or the other.
I don’t think I am calling you a liar. If you were to bang on about something like creationism, which can be shown to be wrong, then I would be justified in doing so. I can’t prove that you are wrong about your bizarre claims for the supernatural so I just say that if you make extraordinary claims you better be able to back them up, and you can’t. That is more delusion than deception. The truth will not be ‘made manifest’ if I am right.Quote I choose to serve God out of my love for Him and for humanity.
I think you put your imaginary friend first, which is not love for humanity. If you really believe the concepts of ‘sin’ as articulated in your holy book then you don’t have a very well-developed understanding of humanity, in my opinion. Of course it could be the meme talking, with the real, human you being suppressed underneath.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MemeI don't believe that I am going to convince you of the truth by what I say.
By all our normal standards of truth, it is not truth. It is assertion.Quote Hopefully, God will bring someone whose life God has changed from the inside out through faith in His Word. The life that a genuine Christian lives is the best testimony that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ is true. I desire God's best for you.
I’m not sure if you appreciate just how many christians I have spoken with in depth about christianity. I have not met one who is able to articulate a balanced view of the positives and negatives of the faith. If you say there are no negatives then I’m afraid I would lump you in with all the lying creationists!Stuart
Hi Stu:As the Lord has said, “shake the dust of your feet”. There will be no more of my “breath” wasted on you.
The truth will be made manifest.
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