Salvation and Christian Theology

Participant

Hi cato,
So your human assessment of the divine plan is that it is inadequate?

February 14, 2008 at 7:22 pm#81457

Cato

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2008,05:24)

Hi cato,
So you human assessment of the divine plan is that it is inadequate?

Nick,
You have not accurately read my posts, I never said the divine plan was inadequate, I said that I do not accept what is commonly taught, is indeed the divine plan. Ominscience could not create such a flawed process. Can anyone defend such a method other then to say it is God's so it must be good. My admittedly human assessment is that it is not God's plan, but human misrepresentation or misunderstanding of such.

February 14, 2008 at 7:24 pm#81458

Participant

Hi cato,
So the plan that is written is flawed and cannot be the correct plan and there must be another one somewhere? Sounds a bit of an insecure foundation for any real faith?

February 15, 2008 at 6:17 am#81515

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2008,06:24)

Hi cato,
So the plan that is written is flawed and cannot be the correct plan and there must be another one somewhere? Sounds a bit of an insecure foundation for any real faith?

Scripture's inability to get basic science right shows it to be faulty. The very best you could do is use it allegorically. Even then it is not up to describing the human condition with any depth of insight.

If you cannot accept any uncertainty in your life then you must find many situations quite terrifying.

Stuart

February 15, 2008 at 7:17 am#81521

Participant

Hi Stu,
So science is more reliable than sacred scripture.
Yet you are so uncertain about everything.

“Only one who desparately needs the security of knowing he has a book containing 100% truth could fail to see the great strength there is in appreciating uncertainty.”

So to you nothing is true?
Sounds familiar.

John 18:38
Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

February 15, 2008 at 9:54 am#81540

Participant

Hi Nick

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So science is more reliable than sacred scripture.

Yes.

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Yet you are so uncertain about everything.

No. Only a tiny bit uncertain.
Stu:”Only one who desparately needs the security of knowing he has a book containing 100% truth could fail to see the great strength there is in appreciating uncertainty.”

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So to you nothing is true?

No. The world has grey. It is not black-and-white like the christian fundamentalist desparately needs it to be.

John 18:38 Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find in him no fault at all.

Obviously the writer of John can say that. His character Jesus had not made a political claim to leadership over anything that recognisably belonged to the Romans, and therefore Pilate finds no fault from his point of view. It does not mean that Pilate endorsed his supposed teachings!

If any of them even existed.

Stuart

February 15, 2008 at 11:48 am#81546

Cato

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2008,06:24)

Hi cato,
So the plan that is written is flawed and cannot be the correct plan and there must be another one somewhere? Sounds a bit of an insecure foundation for any real faith?

Yes it is flawed, and no one has stated elsewise other then to argue it is right because of what they believe is “Holy Scripture”. Perhaps there is another indication of God's real will in this matter, perhaps not, but if there was I think the logic and meaning of such would lead one to wonder at the sense and truth of such rather then to see it as nonsensical.

“Sounds a bit of an insecure foundation for any real faith?”

Questioning is the basis of how real faith begins, as one writer once put it, “who never doubted never believed, where doubt, there truth is, tis her shadow.” I would think that blind obedience to any dogma without tempering such with both heart and head may be faith, but it is faith based on a weak foundation and is the hallmark of the fanatic and not the holy.

February 15, 2008 at 12:22 pm#81547

seekingtruth

Participant

Cato,
I believe there is a difference between doubting and questioning. I do believe we should question our beliefs and why we believe them, but we have to have something to measure them against. If as you say scripture is not trust worthy then we are left to our own devices. However I believe there is absolute truth, and there is a God, and He has provided the means for us to find Him and to know Him. Otherwise we are left with everyone doing as they see fit.

February 15, 2008 at 3:38 pm#81554

Cato

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ Feb. 15 2008,23:22)

I do believe that there are both absolute and relative truths. I believe in God and that he has left means for us to seek him, what I doubt is whether scripture is the “best and only means to do so” for reason I have already set forth.

If God left anything written in his own hand then it is in the laws of the universe and physics and mathematics are the best showcases of God's majesty and depth. Science is not a god anymore then a weatherman makes the weather, but I think it is better then anything else to show God's presence, and Einstein and Newton are as good as any prophet in showing us God's glory.

To quote Thomas Payne, “Does not the creation, the universe we behold, preach to us the existence of an Almighty power, that governs and regulates the whole? And is not the evidence that this creation holds out to our senses infinitely stronger than any thing we can read in a book, that any imposter might make and call the word of God? As for morality, the knowledge of it exists in every man's conscience.”

February 15, 2008 at 6:24 pm#81563

Participant

Hi cato,
Do you mean Thomas Paine?
He wrote[wiki]
“The opinions I have advanced… are the effect of the most clear and long-established conviction that the Bible and the Testament are impositions upon the world, that the fall of man, the account of Jesus Christ being the Son of God, and of his dying to appease the wrath of God, and of salvation by that strange means, are all fabulous inventions, dishonorable to the wisdom and power of the Almighty; that the only true religion is Deism, by which I then meant, and mean now, the belief of one God, and an imitation of his moral character, or the practice of what are called moral virtues—and that it was upon this only (so far as religion is concerned) that I rested all my hopes of happiness hereafter. So say I now—and so help me God.”

February 16, 2008 at 11:06 pm#81877

Participant

Quote (Cato @ Feb. 15 2008,02:05)

Some have implied that I question God's plan or wisdom, this is not the case, what I question is our view of such, which makes little sense. Can anyone argue that what most view as God's supposed plan for dispensation of souls is illogical, and inequitable. Eternal reward or punishment based one life, where the circumstances of that life and that death vary enormously; I sincerely doubt such a plan would come from the architect of the universe. I constantly hear that the Holy spirit must guide you, well my mind, heart, gut and conscience which I feel comes from the divine tells me this plan is too flawed to be of divine origin. It sounds like an oversimplified explanation given to little children in order to get them to obey. “you must believe as I believe and if you are good you go to heaven and bad you go to hell, I am right because I have a holy book that says it is so, and by the way, disregard everyone else's holy book because they're wrong and decieved by demons.” Come on folks, God would do better then this, why did he give us thought and conscience if not to use them. If most of you here are right, then God created a system that damns far more souls then it saves. You'd be right though that the saved would truly be the elite and maybe that is the appeal to your belief. When we look at ourselves as being right and everyone else wrong remember the words of Jesus when he said (at least according to Matthew), “…anyone who looks on his brother as a lost soul is himself heading straight for the fire of destruction.” I think we all need to be reminded of the story of the three blind men and the elephant, just because we are correct from our point of view, doesn't mean that others are wrong from theirs. I know that Jesus said I am the way, but what if he meant an elephant and you feeling only the trunk, assume that the man feeling the leg and the other the body and not the trunk as you, must therefore be damned.

Hi Cato:

When I teach something, it is because it is my understanding of the scriptures. Of course, when I do teach I believe that I am correct in what I am teaching otherwise I would not teach what I am teaching, but no, I have never said that I can not make a mistake in what I am saying. Ultimately, if God confirms what I am teaching as he did in the ministry of Jesus and of the Apostles then it will be Him who is saying that I am right rather than just me simply saying I am correct.

February 16, 2008 at 11:10 pm#81878

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,16:37)

Hi 94,
Did not the Son become like the Father by the work of the Father's Spirit in him?
What of the soul of Christ?

Hi Nick:

I have already stated that God the Father taught His Son by His Spirit.

Your question:

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What of the soul of Christ?

What are you asking about the soul of Christ.

February 16, 2008 at 11:22 pm#81879

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 14 2008,16:47)

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Children are the responsibility of the parents, and so if the parents have heard the gospel and choose not to believe or believe something different and teach their children according to what they believe the parents are responsible, and will be held accountable to God for what they teach their children. Children will not be judged in the day of judgment until they reach the age accountability when they free to make their own decisions.

Again, you say they are free to make their own decisions but they are not really, because if they decide not to do exactly what scripture tells them to then the consequences will be seriously negative ones. So there is actually no choice at all.

Is your god really so obsessive and unpleasant as to visit the sins of the children on the parents?

Stuart

Hi Stu:

Yes, they do have a choice, but any decision not to serve God is an unwise decision because in His love for humanity He has sent Jesus, His only begotten Son and His Christ to be the propitiation for our sins and to set an example for us in how to live in right standing with God.

The principles that God has set forth in His Word for us to live by are principles that are meant for own good. Sin is detrimental to us and to those that we sin against. You have indicated, if I remember correctly, that you strive to live by the “golden rule” which is a good thing. I also strive to do so, but sometimes, I make mistakes, and so, I am thankful for the blood that has been shed for me so that my sin can be forgiven and washed away.

Jesus stated the following:

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John 10:10
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

February 17, 2008 at 1:24 am#81903

Participant

Hi 942767

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In your opinion. Is it right to force that opinion on children before they are able to think abstractly?

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The principles that God has set forth in His Word for us to live by are principles that are meant for own good.

Any dictator will tell his people the same while he deprives them of their basic human rights.

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Sin is detrimental to us and to those that we sin against. You have indicated, if I remember correctly, that you strive to live by the “golden rule” which is a good thing. I also strive to do so, but sometimes, I make mistakes, and so, I am thankful for the blood that has been shed for me so that my sin can be forgiven and washed away.

How completely brutal of you. You require one death in order to live a good life; I require none.

Stuart

February 17, 2008 at 1:36 am#81906

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,19:24)

Hi 942767

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In your opinion. Is it right to force that opinion on children before they are able to think abstractly?

Religious belief is not the only thing we as parents teach our children. Do you have kids Stu? If so, do you teach them that God is not real? If so, you are just as guilty as an religionist.

You have admitted (I think) that God cannot be proven OR disproven. Therefore, if you are honest, you would not teach others that God is not real because you do not have any proof against Him.

February 17, 2008 at 2:00 am#81907

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 17 2008,12:24)

Hi 942767

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In your opinion. Is it right to force that opinion on children before they are able to think abstractly?

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The principles that God has set forth in His Word for us to live by are principles that are meant for own good.

Any dictator will tell his people the same while he deprives them of their basic human rights.

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How completely brutal of you. You require one death in order to live a good life; I require none.

Stuart

Hi Stu:

I don't believe that it is right for any one to force any other human being to do any thing. If any thing is done because because they are being forced to do it, it is not coming from their heart, and therefore, the motives are not their own.

However, it is the responsibility of the parents to teach their children what they believe to be the truth. After they leave the roost then they can decide if what they have been taught is the truth or not.

A dictator does not give you a choice. God gives you a choice. If you want to reject His love for you, and desire destruction which comes from the consequence of sin that is your foolish choice. If you desire to give an account for your life to God based on your own works, that is your choice, but you will have to give an account for the life that you lived. It is your life do with it what you want.

However, you cannot continue to live in God's house if you continue to persist in sin. Therefore, this world is temporary and God is calling those who choose to continue to live in His house into a relationship with Him, and asking us to go into the world sharing the good news of the gospel out of His and our love for humanity.

When I died, I died to sin or to my selfish interests in order that I give my life in service to my God by letting all of humanity that will hear know that God loves them and he desires the very best for every individual.

There is nothing more important or more satisfying than living my life to please my God.

What is a “living a good life” mean to you?

February 17, 2008 at 2:17 am#81912

Participant

Hi kejonn

Stu: (responding to 94….) In your opinion. Is it right to force that opinion on children before they are able to think abstractly?

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Religious belief is not the only thing we as parents teach our children. Do you have kids Stu? If so, do you teach them that God is not real? If so, you are just as guilty as an religionist.

I don’t think children need to be taught anything at all about supernatural beings. They will invent their own imaginary friends and that is an important part of their development. I’m not sure how you can describe a concept such as a supernatural being to a concrete-thinking child, then tell them that there is no such thing. That would not result in any kind of comprehension. I find it difficult enough myself when adults try to convince me that they can really know an imaginary friend, not to mention the magical powers that the imaginary friend has! If the question was directed at me ‘Is there a god?’, my honest answer is ‘I don’t think so’. Young people are very good at discerning when someone is holding back and I think honesty is the only route. If the honest answer is instead ‘I think there is’ well fair enough, but as you say below, god’s existence is not an established fact so you cannot say ‘yes definitely’.

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You have admitted (I think) that God cannot be proven OR disproven. Therefore, if you are honest, you would not teach others that God is not real because you do not have any proof against Him.

I don’t teach people that god is proven not to be real. I certainly will assert my provisional conclusion that there is no such being because there is no evidence for it, and that people making extraordinary claims should have no credibility unless they can provide extraordinary evidence.

Stuart

February 17, 2008 at 2:58 am#81916

Participant

Hi 942767

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Completely agree. Think of all the atheists sitting in church, too cowed by the social pressure of those sitting around them to openly admit their complete disbelief.

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Why? Who says? Children should certainly be given the skills they need to discover truth for themselves, and to interact in an appropriate way with others. What actually happens in fundamentalist households often is that the children are not taught how to distinguish truth from fantasy, they are just given the religious ‘truth’ that their parents have been told to give them. What chance do these young people have to “decide if what they have been taught is the truth or not”?

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A dictator does not give you a choice. God gives you a choice. If you want to reject His love for you, and desire destruction which comes from the consequence of sin that is your foolish choice.

We have established that god actually gives no choice, the ‘option’ being do it my way or you’re toast. That attitude I find reflected in christians, who are forgiving and treating of others as they would be treated up to the point where someone just goes that one step too far against the belief system; then the attitude is quickly soured. No interest in forgiveness, no more Mr Nice Guy. Jesus allegedly demanded 77-fold forgiveness. In my experience that amount of compassion is more likely in anyone but a bible-believing christian.

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If you desire to give an account for your life to God based on your own works, that is your choice, but you will have to give an account for the life that you lived. It is your life do with it what you want.

I have said before that religion is a good option for those too dim to make meaning for their own lives. That might seem a jaded view of humanity but it is a challenge to really consider how you came to be the way you are. If I were to meet your god he would be in for my best effort at displaying utter contempt. I do not account to my parents for the way I live my life independently of them. I am very lucky to have had their unconditional love and support for the choices I have made. How does that sit against the character of a god that will demand such an account?

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However, you cannot continue to live in God's house if you continue to persist in sin.

I don’t ‘sin’. I don’t recognise that word. I don’t live in ‘god’s house’ based on the conclusions I make about his non-existence.

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Therefore, this world is temporary and God is calling those who choose to continue to live in His house into a relationship with Him, and asking us to go into the world sharing the good news of the gospel out of His and our love for humanity.

I choose not to believe that fantasy is reality and vice-versa.

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You are dead?? I didn’t realise what a slave-driver your god is!

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What is a “living a good life” mean to you?

Not living a lie. Helping others to find happiness. Contributing to the common good. Encouraging others to express their humanity, provided that does not mean that others will suffer as a result. Appreciating the astounding fact of my birth and taking on the challenge of using the brief window of history that I have to work out how the universe works and what makes other people tick. I could go on…

Volunteering for intellectual slavery is not a good way to spend this one precious life we each have, in my opinion.

Stuart

February 17, 2008 at 3:07 am#81919

kejonn

Participant

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,20:17)

Hi kejonn

Stu: (responding to 94….) In your opinion. Is it right to force that opinion on children before they are able to think abstractly?

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Religious belief is not the only thing we as parents teach our children. Do you have kids Stu? If so, do you teach them that God is not real? If so, you are just as guilty as an religionist.

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You have admitted (I think) that God cannot be proven OR disproven. Therefore, if you are honest, you would not teach others that God is not real because you do not have any proof against Him.

Stuart

Some time ago I thought of the damage of both telling children about Santa AND Jesus. Eventually, they stop believing in Santa. If parents lie about Santa being real, why not Jesus? Slippery slope.

February 17, 2008 at 3:22 am#81923