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Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 13 2008,08:38) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 12 2008,16:52) Why would the odds be so stacked against some.
What if we take God out of the equation and ask the same question?
Hi H,
Are you quoting me or someone else?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2008,08:46) Hi H,
Are you quoting me or someone else?
Oops, sorry, Nick, I was quoting Cato.I must have had a mental block and clicked on the quote button of the last message, when I decided to post.
Er….where's an embarrassed Smilie Face when one needs one!
Quote (Cato @ Feb. 12 2008,02:50) First, it to me, violates law, laws that God created and set in motion. Nothing in the universe goes from infinite to finite or from finite to infinite. How then can one finite existence then lead to an infinite, eternal, reward or punishment?
If one has eternal life say starting at the year 0, then you will always be able to count forward and then no mater how big the number it is still finite.Infinite would be more like eternal past too.
Quote (Cato @ Feb. 12 2008,02:50) Second, if the stakes are so incredibly high for our one life, then God certainly loves some of us much more then others. One is born to loving Christian parents who teach them, love and nurture them, and surround them with others who believe likewise and encourage and help them stay on path. Another is born in a devout Muslim family and lives the same, but for his faith. Another is born unto a child soldier in Africa, is taught to kill from an early age and in turn is killed as a young man. While all may have an opportunity for salvation, don't try and tell me the chances are the same. Why would the odds be so stacked against some. If we are all loved and we all have just one life then it is clearly unfair.
Being born in a family of money gives their offspring a leg up in the world, yet many people born rich die poor and vice versa.Now a man who is born poor and becomes rich is usually more respected than the one who was born rich.
Now some are born in families that have knowledge of the gospel and some do not.
Some serve God more with the truth they have in their conscience than some who know the gospel.Simply put because every man has a conscience and the conscience is God's law written in the heart of man, then all can be judged.
In addition to that, God expects more from the one who has more. So if you have more truth, then you should be more responsible.
Remember this parable from Jesus? It says a lot on this subject.
Mark 12:41-43
41 And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums.42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent.
43 Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, “Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury;
And guess who had the greatest faith in all Israel according to what Jesus had seen?
Matthew 8:5-10
5When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6″Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering.”7 Jesus said to him, “I will go and heal him.”
8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it.”
10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, “I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.
Not all is as some think. It isn't quite as simple as saying that someone born in a Christian family is loved more by God.
t8,
I am saying that if the means of salvation are based on the premises of most here that, salvation is dependent on being “born again” and this is a one shot eternal reward or punishment scenario, then it is indeed unfair. This is based not on the relative material factors of birth but on their relative opportunities to know and be supported in the faith. I would hazard a guess that those of us who are the most doctrinally devout Christians would be the devout Muslims if raised under different circumstances. How many Muslims born in Saudi Arabia convert to a born again Christian and compare this with the numbers of born again Christians from the Bible Belt of the USA. So I would think that the odds are stacked against those born in devout Muslim areas or anti-religious areas like North Korea. Oh there are some but the percentage miniscule. Yes you can come up with individual exceptions but the overall trends are horribly stacked one way. Unless then you are hedging your bets by saying that salvation is circumstantially dependent? From others here, I heard that you must be reborn with water and spirit in Christ, so you either are or you are not. Sounds like a pass fail situation. I for one feel that God loves us all and that he wouldn't make such a ridiculously unfair, one time test with such stakes as eternity.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2008,22:34) Quote (Cato @ Feb. 12 2008,02:50) First, it to me, violates law, laws that God created and set in motion. Nothing in the universe goes from infinite to finite or from finite to infinite. How then can one finite existence then lead to an infinite, eternal, reward or punishment?
If one has eternal life say starting at the year 0, then you will always be able to count forward and then no mater how big the number it is still finite.Infinite would be more like eternal past too.
t8,If all souls were created in the beginning, then time started then as well so anything before this is effectively undefined.
Your understanding of mathematical infinity is incorrect, just because something has a beginning does not make it finite:
a collection is infinite, if some of its parts are as big as the whole. For example, even though from one point of view the entire list of numbers we count with {1,2,3,4,5,…….} is twice as large as the list of even numbers {2,4,6,8,10,…….}, the two lists can be matched-up in a one-to-one fashion. They both have beginnings but no ends.Quote (Cato @ Feb. 13 2008,23:28) t8, I am saying that if the means of salvation are based on the premises of most here that, salvation is dependent on being “born again” and this is a one shot eternal reward or punishment scenario, then it is indeed unfair. This is based not on the relative material factors of birth but on their relative opportunities to know and be supported in the faith. I would hazard a guess that those of us who are the most doctrinally devout Christians would be the devout Muslims if raised under different circumstances. How many Muslims born in Saudi Arabia convert to a born again Christian and compare this with the numbers of born again Christians from the Bible Belt of the USA. So I would think that the odds are stacked against those born in devout Muslim areas or anti-religious areas like North Korea. Oh there are some but the percentage miniscule. Yes you can come up with individual exceptions but the overall trends are horribly stacked one way. Unless then you are hedging your bets by saying that salvation is circumstantially dependent? From others here, I heard that you must be reborn with water and spirit in Christ, so you either are or you are not. Sounds like a pass fail situation. I for one feel that God loves us all and that he wouldn't make such a ridiculously unfair, one time test with such stakes as eternity.
Hi cato,
You misunderstand.
To become a son of God who is welcome at the wedding feast of Christ while the tribulation rages on earth you must be born again. Some poor, even bad men too are taken into this feast to fill the empty seats as God has a heart for the poor.
Through rebirth the door is opened to the first resurrection and the 1000 yr rest of God and we are urged in Heb4 to make sure we do so.
But many many people are saved through their faithfulness to Christ during that terrible great tribulation. Also read Matt5, the beatitudes, and you will see that many other exceptions are made for men so that in the second resurrection 1000 yrs later many will unexpectedly find they are saved to by their good and kind actions.So God is searching for any who have good fruit to share His eternal blessings because He wants all men to be saved.
Quote (Cato @ Feb. 12 2008,02:50) Premise: Most Christians do not believe in or are silent on pre-existence of human souls. Souls come about at conception or sometime after this, but before actual birth. Then during it's life it is given an opportunity to know and believe in Jesus Christ as son of God, and based on this belief and perhaps a lesser extent, the acts of faith it performs because of this knowledge, then goes on upon it's death to be blessed with eternal life when its body is ressurected, or faces eternal damnation (or destruction based on your interpretation of scripture). Now there are various nuances on this with Catholics hedging their bets with purgatory and limbo and many evangelicals pushing for a tighter interpretation that we must be “born again” to achieve this salvation. My reaction to this is that not only is it illogical, it denies the laws of the universe, is filled with basic inequalities, and makes little sense if the creator is a God of love.
First, it to me, violates law, laws that God created and set in motion. Nothing in the universe goes from infinite to finite or from finite to infinite. How then can one finite existence then lead to an infinite, eternal, reward or punishment?
Second, if the stakes are so incredibly high for our one life, then God certainly loves some of us much more then others. One is born to loving Christian parents who teach them, love and nurture them, and surround them with others who believe likewise and encourage and help them stay on path. Another is born in a devout Muslim family and lives the same, but for his faith. Another is born unto a child soldier in Africa, is taught to kill from an early age and in turn is killed as a young man. While all may have an opportunity for salvation, don't try and tell me the chances are the same. Why would the odds be so stacked against some. If we are all loved and we all have just one life then it is clearly unfair.
Third, if a loving God created us and loved us would he throw us into a life that in essence becomes a test that ultimately condemns the vast majority of souls? Knowing that God is omniscient would he create a system that would lead to this? I feel that God blessed us with the capacity to be parents so we could understand at some basic level what God feels about us. Can any of us who are parents comtemplate eternally destroying or damning our own children. Punish them when unruly sure, but to punish or destroy them eternally, I don't think so. If that is human love just think how much greater is divine love.
Why would God create us in the first place? To set up a litmus test of faith to separate good and bad, weak and strong? Or perhaps he wanted children he could see grow and mature and learn to love him and each other, knowing that these children are individuals with varying strengths and weaknesses who will mature at different rates. Do we hold a 5 year old to the same standards as an older child or an adult? I can't help but think that an omnipotent loving God who would bother creating mankind would have a better system for dispensing of our souls then what most of us were taught in common Christian theology.
Hi Cato:There are many reasons why God's plan for the salvation is the perfect plan although there may be many things that you might not understand. There was a man named Job who did not understand some things that were happening to him in the OT, and God answered him saying,
Quote The King James Version (Authorized) Job 38 – Study This Chapter
1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer F213 thou me.4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast F214 understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations F215 thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? 9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, 10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, 11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place; 13 That it might take hold of the ends F216 of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? 14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment. 15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken. 16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth? 17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death? 18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all. 19 Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, 20 That thou shouldest take it to the bound F217 thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof? 21 Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great? 22 Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail, 23 Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war? 24 By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25 Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder; 26 To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man; 27 To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth? 28 Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew? 29 Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it? 30 The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen. 31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, F218 or loose the bands of Orion? 32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth F219 in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? 33 Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth? 34 Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee? 35 Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go, and say unto thee, Here we are? 36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart? 37 Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay F220 the bottles of heaven, 38 When the dust groweth F221 into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together? 39 Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite F222 of the young lions, 40 When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait? 41 Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
This continues in Ch.'s 39-42. I just thought I would post this for your information. If God is the creator of the universe and every thing in it, he must have just a little wisdom to have done all of this. It is good that we go to Him and ask for understanding. We should want to know.
Salvation is by faith so that it might be by grace. I
n other words it is based on God's goodness and his mercy and not because man has obeyed Him without making a mistake. When a person is born again, God becomes the Father of his spirit and He becomes man's helper in teaching a man how to live in right standing with him by the example of the life of His Son and His Christ, Jesus. It wonderful to know when a man is striving to obey God under these circumstances that there is no condemnation if he makes a mistake, he is not condemned. This is wonderful freedom. This world is the refining fire where a born again Christian has a place to put the Word of God into practice. If there were no place to practice the Word of God, a man could not become like Jesus who is the express image of God's person. This is God's ultimate goal. God man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul with a mind, a free will, and emotions. The last man became a life giving spirit. It in this spirit (the Word of God that came to humanity through Jesus) and the blood of Jesus that a man's soul is alive to God. In this spirit, he has a personal relationship with God.Secondly, a man is called into a relationship with God. He does not have to serve God if he does not desire to do so. It is his choice, but whether or not a man chooses to obey God, he must give an account to God for the life that he lived in this body, and will be judged according to his works. God is a just God.
God has delegated the responsibility for sharing the gospel with the church, and so it our responsibility to do so. Certainly, there are those that hinder this effort just as the Pharisees did in days of the ministry of Jesus. This is what the Apostle Paul says,
Quote 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report F39? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people Children are the responsibility of the parents, and so if the parents have heard the gospel and choose not to believe or believe something different and teach their children according to what they believe the parents are responsible, and will be held accountable to God for what they teach their children. Children will not be judged in the day of judgment until they reach the age accountability when they free to make their own decisions.
There may seem to be some disparities in God's plan, but He is wiser than more just than any of us. I know that He knows what He is doing.
Hi 94
You say
“The last man became a life giving spirit. It in this spirit (the Word of God that came to humanity through Jesus) and the blood of Jesus that a man's soul is alive to God. In this spirit, he has a personal relationship with God.”But the spirit of Jesus, the man from heaven, left him at Calvary.
Jn 19
30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.Mt 27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.Lk 23
46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.He was made alive in THE Spirit, the Spirit of God.
1Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,12:50) Hi 94
You say
“The last man became a life giving spirit. It in this spirit (the Word of God that came to humanity through Jesus) and the blood of Jesus that a man's soul is alive to God. In this spirit, he has a personal relationship with God.”But the spirit of Jesus, the man from heaven, left him at Calvary.
Jn 19
30Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.Mt 27
50And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.Lk 23
46And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.He was made alive in THE Spirit, the Spirit of God.
1Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
Hi Nick:Yes, Jesus spirit went to God when he died, but he is not dead he is alive through that spirit. It is the same spirit that we are striving to obey, the Word of God that came to humanity through Jesus, God's Son and His Christ. These are the commandments that came from God to humanity through Jesus, God's Son and His Christ, the same Word of God that is written in our bibles.
God Bless
Hi 94,
So Christ is alive in his own spirit and not the Spirit of God given to him?
So the Spirit of God is divided and he is not one with God in that Spirit?
We too are not united with God in Christ in the unity of the Spirit of God?Hi 94,
You say
“Yes, Jesus spirit went to God when he died, but he is not dead he is alive through that spirit.”Scripture says that the spirit of Jesus left him.
But HE went to visit the spirits in prison.
1Peter 3
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
We have our own spirit and the Spirit of God.
Rom 8
“16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: “If the spirit of Jesus was with God then how could he visit the spirits in prison unless he was alive in another spirit, the Spirit given him, the Spirit that raised him, the Spirit of God?
Rom8
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 14 2008,14:05) Hi 94,
So Christ is alive in his own spirit and not the Spirit of God given to him?
So the Spirit of God is divided and he is not one with God in that Spirit?
We too are not united with God in Christ in the unity of the Spirit of God?
Hi Nick:Quote 2Jo 1:9
Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.The doctrine of Christ is the Word of God that came to humanity from God through Jesus who not only taught what God gave him but obeyed God without sin even unto death (This is the spirit of the Son). To have the Father is to have the Holy Spirit of God (God's Spirit) dwelling within you as your helper. The Father's Spirit was in Jesus teaching him what he taught and obeyed (John 14), and now it is the Father's Spirit that dwells within a born again believer and leads him into all truth in the doctrine of Christ.
God Bless
Hi 94,
So we agree that it is the Spirit of God that dwells within a reborn believer and teaches him truth.1Jn2
27But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.You say the spirit of the Son is of his works of obedience?
Was not the Word given the Son from the Spirit of God too?Hi 94,
If the Spirit of Christ is not the Spirit of God in Christ it makes this verse in Rom 8 hard to grasp.9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2008,21:43) Hi 94,
So we agree that it is the Spirit of God that dwells within a reborn believer and teaches him truth.
Why is your truth different from the truth of a trinitarian? Someone who does not believe in preexistence? How do you know which version of the truth is the truth? Is the truth you know more true than the truth of another who does not believe as you?Hi Nick:
You ask:
Quote You say the spirit of the Son is of his works of obedience?
Was not the Word given the Son from the Spirit of God too?Yes, but the Father and the Son are two distinct individuals.. It is the Father who has taught the Son, and it is the Son who has become like the Father by putting into practice what God has taught him.
Hi 94,
Did not the Son become like the Father by the work of the Father's Spirit in him?
What of the soul of Christ?Quote Children are the responsibility of the parents, and so if the parents have heard the gospel and choose not to believe or believe something different and teach their children according to what they believe the parents are responsible, and will be held accountable to God for what they teach their children. Children will not be judged in the day of judgment until they reach the age accountability when they free to make their own decisions. Again, you say they are free to make their own decisions but they are not really, because if they decide not to do exactly what scripture tells them to then the consequences will be seriously negative ones. So there is actually no choice at all.
Is your god really so obsessive and unpleasant as to visit the sins of the children on the parents?
Stuart
Some have implied that I question God's plan or wisdom, this is not the case, what I question is our view of such, which makes little sense. Can anyone argue that what most view as God's supposed plan for dispensation of souls is illogical, and inequitable. Eternal reward or punishment based one life, where the circumstances of that life and that death vary enormously; I sincerely doubt such a plan would come from the architect of the universe. I constantly hear that the Holy spirit must guide you, well my mind, heart, gut and conscience which I feel comes from the divine tells me this plan is too flawed to be of divine origin. It sounds like an oversimplified explanation given to little children in order to get them to obey. “you must believe as I believe and if you are good you go to heaven and bad you go to hell, I am right because I have a holy book that says it is so, and by the way, disregard everyone else's holy book because they're wrong and decieved by demons.” Come on folks, God would do better then this, why did he give us thought and conscience if not to use them. If most of you here are right, then God created a system that damns far more souls then it saves. You'd be right though that the saved would truly be the elite and maybe that is the appeal to your belief. When we look at ourselves as being right and everyone else wrong remember the words of Jesus when he said (at least according to Matthew), “…anyone who looks on his brother as a lost soul is himself heading straight for the fire of destruction.” I think we all need to be reminded of the story of the three blind men and the elephant, just because we are correct from our point of view, doesn't mean that others are wrong from theirs. I know that Jesus said I am the way, but what if he meant an elephant and you feeling only the trunk, assume that the man feeling the leg and the other the body and not the trunk as you, must therefore be damned.
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