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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,19:51) Hi Stu,
I guess you have reasons for preferring the company of the pigs
but Your Dad has never given up the hope that you may return.
OK, it's random passages or cheap prosyletising.Stuart
I disagree with the middle one. About half of all the members of our species who have ever lived are alive today.
Stuart
Quote (Colter @ April 19 2008,07:06) Jesus never said that Christianity is the only way, he didn't even say that “my religion is the only way”. God is spirit and that spirit was in Christ reconciling himself to the world.
Jesus' gospel was generic and capable of transforming (not overthrowing), enhancing (not disparaging) any of the world religions.
Had this simple, generic philosophy been carried to the 4 corners of the earth rather then being unintentionally hijacked and altered then we may not be having this discussion.
And to be fair are you going to provide these kinds of misleading pie charts for Zoroastrianism?
Colter
Ah, but neither I nor Zarathushtra ever claimed that Zoroastrianism was the only way. Z only spoke of good thoughts, words, and deeds, and to seek the inspiration from God to aid in this accomplishment. So you statement is a straw man.But let's see what the bible says:
- Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,04:22) Quote (Colter @ April 19 2008,07:06) Jesus never said that Christianity is the only way, he didn't even say that “my religion is the only way”. God is spirit and that spirit was in Christ reconciling himself to the world.
Jesus' gospel was generic and capable of transforming (not overthrowing), enhancing (not disparaging) any of the world religions.
Had this simple, generic philosophy been carried to the 4 corners of the earth rather then being unintentionally hijacked and altered then we may not be having this discussion.
And to be fair are you going to provide these kinds of misleading pie charts for Zoroastrianism?
Colter
Ah, but neither I nor Zarathushtra ever claimed that Zoroastrianism was the only way. Z only spoke of good thoughts, words, and deeds, and to seek the inspiration from God to aid in this accomplishment. So you statement is a straw man.But let's see what the bible says:
- Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
Yes, but Jesus said that he came in the name or the authority of God, his Father, and by what authority do you come to us trying to convince us that what he taught was not the truth?Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,12:10) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,04:22) Quote (Colter @ April 19 2008,07:06) Jesus never said that Christianity is the only way, he didn't even say that “my religion is the only way”. God is spirit and that spirit was in Christ reconciling himself to the world.
Jesus' gospel was generic and capable of transforming (not overthrowing), enhancing (not disparaging) any of the world religions.
Had this simple, generic philosophy been carried to the 4 corners of the earth rather then being unintentionally hijacked and altered then we may not be having this discussion.
And to be fair are you going to provide these kinds of misleading pie charts for Zoroastrianism?
Colter
Ah, but neither I nor Zarathushtra ever claimed that Zoroastrianism was the only way. Z only spoke of good thoughts, words, and deeds, and to seek the inspiration from God to aid in this accomplishment. So you statement is a straw man.But let's see what the bible says:
- Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
Yes, but Jesus said that he came in the name or the authority of God, his Father, and by what authority do you come to us trying to convince us that what he taught was not the truth?
I am a living, breathing individual. My family and friends know me. The only way we even know of Jesus is through a book. How can we be certain that the words that the bible says Jesus spoke ever indeed came from his mouth? How do we even know Jesus was who the bible says he was?You have to rely on one book to do this. One book written by a small handful of mostly anonymous authors.
Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,05:51) Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,12:10) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,04:22) Quote (Colter @ April 19 2008,07:06) Jesus never said that Christianity is the only way, he didn't even say that “my religion is the only way”. God is spirit and that spirit was in Christ reconciling himself to the world.
Jesus' gospel was generic and capable of transforming (not overthrowing), enhancing (not disparaging) any of the world religions.
Had this simple, generic philosophy been carried to the 4 corners of the earth rather then being unintentionally hijacked and altered then we may not be having this discussion.
And to be fair are you going to provide these kinds of misleading pie charts for Zoroastrianism?
Colter
Ah, but neither I nor Zarathushtra ever claimed that Zoroastrianism was the only way. Z only spoke of good thoughts, words, and deeds, and to seek the inspiration from God to aid in this accomplishment. So you statement is a straw man.But let's see what the bible says:
- Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
Yes, but Jesus said that he came in the name or the authority of God, his Father, and by what authority do you come to us trying to convince us that what he taught was not the truth?
I am a living, breathing individual. My family and friends know me. The only way we even know of Jesus is through a book. How can we be certain that the words that the bible says Jesus spoke ever indeed came from his mouth? How do we even know Jesus was who the bible says he was?You have to rely on one book to do this. One book written by a small handful of mostly anonymous authors.
I agree, Kevin.The bible itself says that “God” has written his law on our hearts and we do not need to say to our neighbor (whether through a book/bible or witnessing) know God, because they will know him by what he has created!
We cannot know Jesus this way.
You are correct.
Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,05:51) Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,12:10) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,04:22) Quote (Colter @ April 19 2008,07:06) Jesus never said that Christianity is the only way, he didn't even say that “my religion is the only way”. God is spirit and that spirit was in Christ reconciling himself to the world.
Jesus' gospel was generic and capable of transforming (not overthrowing), enhancing (not disparaging) any of the world religions.
Had this simple, generic philosophy been carried to the 4 corners of the earth rather then being unintentionally hijacked and altered then we may not be having this discussion.
And to be fair are you going to provide these kinds of misleading pie charts for Zoroastrianism?
Colter
Ah, but neither I nor Zarathushtra ever claimed that Zoroastrianism was the only way. Z only spoke of good thoughts, words, and deeds, and to seek the inspiration from God to aid in this accomplishment. So you statement is a straw man.But let's see what the bible says:
- Mat 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,
Mat 10:33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.1Jn 2:22 Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.
Yes, but Jesus said that he came in the name or the authority of God, his Father, and by what authority do you come to us trying to convince us that what he taught was not the truth?
I am a living, breathing individual. My family and friends know me. The only way we even know of Jesus is through a book. How can we be certain that the words that the bible says Jesus spoke ever indeed came from his mouth? How do we even know Jesus was who the bible says he was?You have to rely on one book to do this. One book written by a small handful of mostly anonymous authors.
Hi KJ:We learn about him and the things that he taught from the NT, but there is that born again experience that leaves no doubt that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus is true.
Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,15:58) Hi KJ: We learn about him and the things that he taught from the NT, but there is that born again experience that leaves no doubt that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus is true.
You say that, and others say it, but do you discount similar experiences by Muslims or any other religious adherent? What makes your experience valid and theirs not?Quote (Colter @ April 19 2008,16:47) Are the things that Jesus taught on the sermon on the mount not true?
True in what manner? True that he said them or true in concept? Did you know that almost all of the sayings of Jesus in the SoM can be related to the Talmud or OT?http://jdstone.org/cr/files/thesermononthemount.html
Quote Are the truths contained in the parables not true?
Same as above with the exception of Talmud and OT.Quote Is it better to love your enemies then to resent them?
Did Jesus show he loved his enemies? I never saw him show much love to the Pharisees.Quote Have you tried loving people as Jesus loved people?
By telling them they must leave behind their family and follow me? No, never done that.Quote Have you ever actually surrendered your will and life to God?
It says Jesus did so in the bible. However, there is absolutely no evidence outside of the bible that this happened.Quote How many people in the world know who Jesus is compared to other religious teachers?
And they would have never know about Jesus had Paul not come along. But there are who are know now as well: Mohammed, Buddha, etc.Quote Everyone who sincerely seeks to have a relationship with Jesus can do so right now! And you will have ample time to complain to God about how he runs the universe.
Colter
So says the guy who believes the UB over the bible
.Quote (Colter @ April 19 2008,17:02) Quote Ah, but neither I nor Zarathushtra ever claimed that Zoroastrianism was the only way. Z only spoke of good thoughts, words, and deeds, and to seek the inspiration from God to aid in this accomplishment. So you statement is a straw man. Jesus is God, so his statement is consistent: No one gets to God except through God. All who seek God do so through the circuit of the Son.
Whether or not Jesus is God is not determined. He never claimed to be in the bible, only others touched on this. So if Jesus never claimed it, why should anyone believe it?Quote You may not like it, Judas certainly didn't like it, so you do have the choice to reject Jesus.
Judas didn't believe Jesus was God! If he had, would he had sold him? Well, I forget, that was Yahweh's plan, right?Quote Kevin, you speak of “good thoughts, words and deeds and seeking inspiration” yet you spend so much time trashing faith in Jesus Christ? Your either not secure in what you believe or your new found faith doesn't rise to the level of Jesus' positive gospel.
Show me Jesus' positive gospel. He said he did not come to bring peace, but a sword. Is that positive? He said he would turn family members against one another, is that positive?Quote You may have a positive religion but your not a positive teacher of that religion. Colter
Ah well, so be it. I stand up for God against ancient books that make him look like a brutal tyrant.Colter, I think there comes a certain mixed bag of emotions when you find out that what you trusted may not be trustworthy. I think Kevin pulls from this bag sometimes, I know that I do.
Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,10:52) Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,15:58) Hi KJ: We learn about him and the things that he taught from the NT, but there is that born again experience that leaves no doubt that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus is true.
You say that, and others say it, but do you discount similar experiences by Muslims or any other religious adherent? What makes your experience valid and theirs not?
Hi Kj:I have never heard of a Muslim profess a born again experience unless he has become a Christian, and there are some who have become Christians in these last days.
For example:
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2008,11:08) Colter, I think there comes a certain mixed bag of emotions when you find out that what you trusted may not be trustworthy. I think Kevin pulls from this bag sometimes, I know that I do.
The same thing happens in adolescence. I think there is a reasonable parallel here. If someone is born again, either they stay in childhood, not taking responsibilities for making meaning in their own lives, or they grow up and go through the questioning of authority and recieved 'wisdom', emerging as an adult able to weigh the merits of their beliefs. As has been shown here, fundamentalist christians are stuck in childhood both ethically and in their capacity for critical thinking.Stuart
Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,18:47) Quote (kejonn @ April 20 2008,10:52) Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,15:58) Hi KJ: We learn about him and the things that he taught from the NT, but there is that born again experience that leaves no doubt that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding Jesus is true.
You say that, and others say it, but do you discount similar experiences by Muslims or any other religious adherent? What makes your experience valid and theirs not?
Hi Kj:I have never heard of a Muslim profess a born again experience unless he has become a Christian, and there are some who have become Christians in these last days.
For example:
No, not a “born again” experience but then again there is no such thing in other religions. They all have their certain “catch phrases” that explain their experience of finding the “truth”.As to Muslims converting to Christianity, there are also those who do the opposite — Christians who convert to Islam.
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/
So your point is nullified.
Quote (942767 @ April 19 2008,19:19) Hi KJ: Also, I have read the Koran, and I do not find anything in it about being born again.
I tried to read the Koran but it was worse than reading the Urantia book. Beyond that, if adherents can justify killing by their holy book, it cannot be of God.Quote (Stu @ April 20 2008,09:31) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2008,11:08) Colter, I think there comes a certain mixed bag of emotions when you find out that what you trusted may not be trustworthy. I think Kevin pulls from this bag sometimes, I know that I do.
The same thing happens in adolescence. I think there is a reasonable parallel here. If someone is born again, either they stay in childhood, not taking responsibilities for making meaning in their own lives, or they grow up and go through the questioning of authority and recieved 'wisdom', emerging as an adult able to weigh the merits of their beliefs. As has been shown here, fundamentalist christians are stuck in childhood both ethically and in their capacity for critical thinking.Stuart
Stu,
You , me and scripture agree (sort of)Quote fundamentalist christians are stuck in childhood
Matt 18:3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.Quote capacity for critical thinking.
1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,Wm
Quote (Colter @ April 20 2008,14:21) Quote Judas didn't believe Jesus was God! If he had, would he had sold him? Well, I forget, that was Yahweh's plan, right? That Jesus would be rejected and killed was a foregone conclusion. That someone would betray him, say all maner of evil against him falsey, is predictable. People are still doing it.
Judas appeared to come to some realization of what he had done, he hung himself after the heroic accolades failed to come his way.
Can anyone here relate to Judas inner life?
If we take the bible at face value, then Judas may have not known that they were going to condemn him to death. Perhaps he thought they would only punish him somehow, by exiling him or having him whipped. When he saw that Jesus was to be put to death, he would have known that he had done nothing worthy of that result.Quote (Colter @ April 21 2008,07:37) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2008,11:08) Colter, I think there comes a certain mixed bag of emotions when you find out that what you trusted may not be trustworthy. I think Kevin pulls from this bag sometimes, I know that I do.
I understand that, I like Kevin.At some point we have to get off the pity pot and grow up! Life is full of disillusionment and sorrow.
First we discover our parents aren't perfect, then we discover that life isn't fair, then we discover that religion is primarily man made.
All along the way we think life is one way and discover it's another.
I've always believed in God and Jesus despite the realization that the Bible is factually and historically flawed. None of that precluded's man from having a relationship with God, rather I think we can fool ourselves and use the imperfection of the scriptures as and excuse.
Colter
I agree with most of all you say, however I don't think anyone is on the “pity pot”.
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