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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,15:17) Hi KJ,
They enjoyed the blessing of God.
I am not so sure about you.
Are you one of the blessed too Nick? Will you be up there in heaven righteously laughing at the 99.99% of christianity who got it wrong and are suffering sulfurous misery? Is that your glorious goal?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,22:17) Hi KJ,
They enjoyed the blessing of God.
I am not so sure about you.- Mat 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
What a blessing
.Although I can only find one incident of a prophet being killed by Jews…
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 16 2008,20:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,15:17) Hi KJ,
They enjoyed the blessing of God.
I am not so sure about you.
Are you one of the blessed too Nick? Will you be up there in heaven righteously laughing at the 99.99% of christianity who got it wrong and are suffering sulfurous misery? Is that your glorious goal?Stuart
Hi Stu,
Do men go to heaven?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2008,06:01) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 16 2008,20:51) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,15:17) Hi KJ,
They enjoyed the blessing of God.
I am not so sure about you.
Are you one of the blessed too Nick? Will you be up there in heaven righteously laughing at the 99.99% of christianity who got it wrong and are suffering sulfurous misery? Is that your glorious goal?Stuart
Hi Stu,
Do men go to heaven?
Do you think you will?Stuart
All of our threads tend to get off topic rather quickly. Back to subject, can any justify what is commonly taught as how salvation is dispensed, other then to say that its according to scripture so don't question it. If anything in the universe should be fair it it should be our judgement, and as described in scripture it is not. The results thereof are completely out of line with the causitive actions. Reward and punishments do not fit the deeds.
Cato,
I agree. What the shame of it all is that one of the moderators is the one who usually helps to move the thread off-topic. I suppose he feels his job as moderator is to lead people away from risky subjects?
The idea of “salvation” in the bible is inequitable. As you stated, many may never hear the gospel message, and many who do will hear a misrepresentation of it and thus likely write it off as nonsense.
For most people — particularly those from a modern society, the idea that a loving God even requires death of something for “sin” is ludicrous. When we apologize to our fellow man, does the the one offended require some sort of atonement gift? No, typically a heartfelt apology will suffice, certainly if a change of behavior comes after it. There are several instances in the OT where sacrifices were not necessary for forgiveness and atonement, especially as time progressed in the development of the Judaic religion.
Beyond that, the statement “saved from what”, although sounding silly to a Christian, is indeed a valid question. Many people do not see any need to believe in a man spoken of in a book to change their lives. I've discovered that there seem to be two major classes of salvation experiences out there: those who accepted Jesus at an early age due to influence of friends or family, and those who accepted Jesus during a stressful time in life (drug addiction, alcohol addiction, depression, etc.). In fact, many people present Jesus in a way that appeals to those who are going through a troubled time in their lives.
That is why there are some who hear the gospel message many times and never accept. They never see a need to. While Christians will be quick to say they have not been “called”, or are just fooling themselves, or are holding on to the world, the truth may be that accepting Jesus just offers no appeal for them. And many of these people lead perfectly moral, upstanding lives without him.
But Christians will feel sorry for such people because they will think that you can never be good enough to earn heaven, it has to come through Jesus. Many feel a murderer can accept Jesus and be safe while many of those the murdered killed are in hell. If ever there was an inequitable idea, that is it.
I think one of the people involved with the holocaust on the German side — a man who had a hand in killing thousands of Jews — had a “deathbed conversion”. Many Christians would believe this man would then have everlasting life, while those thousands of Jews that were killed would be tossed in the lake of fire.
I could go on and on, but I think you get the picture.
Salvation, as many Christians represent it, is like saying that the purpose of this mortal life is as a initiation process into the eternal glory club. IOW, if you can make the right choices in this “fallen state” will prove your worthiness to be a member. To take that view of a loving God is cruel IMHO.
Hi cato,
Our opinions on judgement are not particularly relevant.
All men believe they are righteous.Just a question after reading kejonn's post above: Why do some christians feel resentment towards those who supposedly betrayed Jesus? Surely that betrayal was essential for getting him killed and all of them saved?
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2008,05:57) Hi cato,
Our opinions on judgement are not particularly relevant.
All men believe they are righteous.
It has nothing to do with righteousness. It is about cause and effect, and the Almighty setting up a logical, fair, system where all reap the results of their actions in measure to those actions and the intent behind them. You still can not justify the system you say is God's plan, for it is illogical. If human intellect can find flaw then it is certainly not a divine plan. You now argue that our opinions are irrelevant because you can not construct a counter argument or justification for such non-sense.Hi cato,
Not so.
Vain human intellect often thinks it can be as God.
God is not ruled by human logic and fairness in our eyes is not something we have a right to demand.Jesus said that only God is good.
So God pours of His Spirit into washed vessels.
Thus goodness can pervade all of His Kingdom forever.We deserve absolutely nothing.
It was never about rewards for our behaviours.
That was how the Pharisees stumbled and we abhor their evil leaven.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2008,05:39) Hi cato,
Not so.
Vain human intellect often thinks it can be as God.
God is not ruled by human logic and fairness in our eyes is not something we have a right to demand.Jesus said that only God is good.
So God pours of His Spirit into washed vessels.
Thus goodness can pervade all of His Kingdom forever.We deserve absolutely nothing.
It was never about rewards for our behaviours.
That was how the Pharisees stumbled and we abhor their evil leaven.
Are you trying to say that we only think we have found a flaw? That is a rather weak apology to Cato's very good theological point. Maybe god only thinks he is omnipotent.Stuart
Hi Stu,
What is theology?
A dim rationalisation of things,
some of which cannot be known by puny men?What do you call your belief system Nick? Since it does not match any other Christian's 100%, we'll never know who has the truth.
No, but it would be interesting to know if you believe your truth is more truth than the next Christian's truth.
Hi KJ,
Belief in the bible is what we offer. A foundation for faith.
It is what the Lord wants.
Lk646And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2008,07:26) Hi Stu,
What is theology?
A dim rationalisation of things,
some of which cannot be known by puny men?
I think theology is a nonsense myself. What does it have to offer that is not very adequately covered by history and philosophy?So let me return to the statement I made, with modification:
Are you trying to say that we only think we have found a flaw? That is a rather weak apology to Cato's very good point. Maybe god only thinks he is omnipotent.
Stuart
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