- This topic is empty.
- Posts
throughout readings on the forum…..
I wonder how many of us partake in sabbath, it seems that by what most write and express that sabbath is part of the law…..and most believe the law is no longer needed…….we are saved by faith not by works and sabbath is consider a work and not faith.
we are given how we are to partake sabbath, the pharisees were even corrected by christ that they had made sabbath keeping a burden, we are told throughout scriptures that sabbath keeping is a law forever, throughout generationsl.
one more note, just a thought, how can one say that some sacred writings are for only one sect of people and not for all, why would christ not preach to all, he came to save the lost, did it matter if you were jew, gentile, roman?
Christ partook in sabbath, the book of hebrews tells us his chosen are still to take a day of rest……
most here will understand this, no constatine, jewish tradition is needed, adding this will only take away from the meat.
so is sabbath keeping a law or is it love
Quote we are told throughout scriptures that sabbath keeping is a law forever, throughout generationsl.
Which scripture are you referring to?
The word that many Bible's translates “forever” does not actually mean “forever.” It's basic meaning is an unknown period of time that may or may not be quite long. And so, in some instances, this might be forever. But that is not what the actual word means.Quote one more note, just a thought, how can one say that some sacred writings are for only one sect of people and not for all,
But this is EXACTLY what the Bible says. It was for the natural Israelites, and those who became residents with them.EXODUS 19:1-6
“In the third month after the SONS OF ISRAEL came out of the land of Egypt, on the same day, they came into the wilderness of Si′nai. . . .And Moses went up to the [true] God, and Jehovah began to call to him out of the mountain, saying: “This is WHAT YOU ARE TO SAY TO THE HOUSE OF JACOB AND TO TELL THE SONS OF ISRAEL, ‘YOU yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, that I might carry YOU on wings of eagles and bring YOU to myself. And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.””1 KINGS 8:53
“For you yourself SEPARATED THEM AS YOUR INHERITANCE OUT OF ALL PEOPLES OF THE EARTH, just as you have spoken by means of Moses your servant when you were bringing our forefathers out from Egypt, O Sovereign Lord Jehovah.””PSALM 135:4
“For Jah has chosen even Jacob for himself, Israel for his special property.”DEUTERONOMY 7:6
“For you are a holy people to Jehovah your God. It is you Jehovah your God has chosen to become his people, a special property, out of all the peoples that are on the surface of the ground.”THAT NATION, of Israel had an agreement with God. They could have held a special position in God's arrangement. Instead, their “house was abandoned to them” and “the kingdom was given to a nation producing it's fruits.”
Of course, today, the good news of that kingdom is being preached in all nations, as Christ foretold. (mat 24:14)
**
GALATIANS 3:19
“Why, then, the Law? It was added to make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive. . . .”The Law covenant became in a sense “obsolete” when God announced by means of the prophet Jeremiah that there would be a new covenant. (Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:13) In 33 C.E. the Law covenant was canceled on the basis of Christ’s death on the torture stake (Col 2:14), the new covenant replacing it.—Heb 7:12; 9:15; Ac 2:1-4.
Yes, Christ partook of the Sabbath. He was born a Jew. They were the ones God had the agreement with. That nation failed. In fact, they rejected God's very son. So, that special privilege was given away.
Of course, the principle of the sabbath still holds.
Today, God has the “Israel of God” spiritual Israel.
1 PETER 2:9
“But YOU are “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that YOU should declare abroad the excellencies” of the one that called YOU out of darkness into his wonderful light.”REVELATION 5:10
“and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.””Here's the scripture I was looking for but couldn't find:
Ex. 31:16, 17: “The sons of Israel must keep the sabbath, so as to carry out the sabbath during their generations. It is a covenant to time indefinite [“a perpetual covenant,” RS]. Between me and the sons of Israel it is a sign to time indefinite.”
(Notice that sabbath observance was a sign between Jehovah and Israel; this would not be the case if everyone else were also obligated to keep the Sabbath. The Hebrew word rendered “perpetual” in RS is ‛oh·lam′, which basically means a period of time that, from the standpoint of the present, is indefinite or hidden from sight but of long duration. That can mean forever, but not necessarily so. At Numbers 25:13 the same Hebrew word is applied to the priesthood, which later ended, according to Hebrews 7:12.)
Rom. 10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.” (Sabbath keeping was a part of that Law. God used Christ to bring that Law to its end. Our having a righteous standing with God depends on faith in Christ, not on keeping a weekly sabbath.) (Also Galatians 4:9-11; Ephesians 2:13-16)
Col. 2:13-16: “[God] kindly forgave us all our trespasses and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us . . . Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath.” (If a person was under the Mosaic Law and was judged guilty of profaning the Sabbath, he was to be stoned to death by the whole congregation, according to Exodus 31:14 and Numbers 15:32-35. Many who argue for sabbath keeping have reason to be glad that we are not under that Law. As shown in the scripture here quoted, an approved standing with God no longer requires observance of the sabbath requirement given to Israel.)
I've always wondered about this: If you believe you are still under the old law, how do you deal with stonings?
david, thank you for replying, greatly appreciated.
Your statement about stoning……replying with a question, how do you deal with tithing?
Quote Your statement about stoning……replying with a question, how do you deal with tithing? I don't. I'm not an Israelite. I neither tithe nor stone people.
EPHESIANS 2:15
“By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees [INCLUDING TITHING], that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace;”Christians are not commanded to tithe. Neither Jesus nor the apostles said we should tithe.
God himself put an end to the Mosaic Law, with its tithing arrangements, nailing it to Jesus’ torture stake. (Romans 6:14; Colossians 2:13, 14)
But, CHRISTIANS are told to not forsake the gathering of ourselves together (Heb) and their would be a worldwide minsitry (mat 24:14) and this would take expenses and organisation. Instead of being required to give a specified amount for congregation expenses, therefore, Christians make voluntary contributions.
RATHER THAN TITHING, this is the principle set out in the Christian Greek Scriptures:
2 CORINTHIANS 9:7
“Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.”The principle of tithing or of this scripture is still in effect:
PROVERBS 3:9
“Honor Jehovah with your valuable things and with the firstfruits of all your produce.”But the law is “abolished.”
HEBREWS 10:1-2
“For since the Law has a shadow of the good things to come, but not the very substance of the things, [men] can never with the same sacrifices from year to year which they offer continually make those who approach perfect. Otherwise, would the [sacrifices] not have stopped being offered, because those rendering sacred service who had been cleansed once for all time would have no consciousness of sins anymore?”
HEBREWS 10:10
“By the said “will” we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.”When Paul was collecting contributions for needy ones in Judea, he did not mention a specific percentage that should be given. Rather, he said: : “Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7)
Ibrim (hebrews) 4.9
so there remains a sabbath-keeping for the people of Yah………so you are not his chosen?
you know, when the children of Israel forgot how to worship……..
just a thought……… this law everyone speaks of what if, it was the law of sacrifice, with everything else still is in place. boy wouldn't that be a surprise to some of us. (now, remember….sacrifice had alot attached to it, blood, death ect.. so think just a bit ok?)
must confess, if I do not give my tithe to him, first thing, my finances are out of whack the rest of the week. Honestly, when I do tithe right off, it is like the money is always there when needed, strangest thing, the same with sabbath……….
but we are all different in our walk, maybe that is why so many assemblies are given warning in revelations, we each have faults that need to be corrected, yes?
So tell me if you could just for reference, what parts of scripture don't apply to you. If the answer is long please send it pm, it would be greatly apprecitated.
and by the by, it is written do not move your neighbors marking stone…………so david would you move mine?
Quote “But the law is “abolished.””
Where is this written?eph 2:15:
“by abolishing the law of commandments.” (ESV)
“by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments” (NAS)Quote Ibrim (hebrews) 4.9
so there remains a sabbath-keeping for the people of Yah………so you are not his chosen?
Christians do not need to keep one day a week as the Sabbath because the Bible says that requirement “was to be done away with.” (2 Cor. 3:7-11) The Sabbath referred to at Heb 4:9 is referring to something different:
HEBREWS 4:9-11
“So there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God. For the man that has entered into [God’s] rest has also himself rested from his own works, just as God did from his own. Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, for fear anyone should fall in the same pattern of disobedience.”When Paul spoke of God’s resting from His work, he was apparently referring to what is stated at Genesis 2:2, where we read: : “By the seventh day God came to the completion of his work that he had made, and he proceeded to rest on the seventh day from all his work that he had made.”
“God proceeded to bless the seventh day and make it sacred, because on it he has been resting from all his work that God has created for the purpose of making.”—Genesis 2:3; Isaiah 40:26, 28.
On “the seventh day,” God rested, or desisted, from further earthly creative works in order to allow what he had already created to develop in accord with his will. By the end of that “day,” all that God had purposed will have become a reality. How long will that rest be?
Getting back to Paul’s statement in Hebrews, we note that he pointed out that that “there remains a sabbath resting for the people of God,” ” and he urged his fellow Christians to do their utmost “to enter into that rest.” This shows that when Paul wrote those words, “the seventh day” of God’s rest, which had started some 4,000 years earlier, was still in progress. It will not end until God’s purpose regarding mankind and the earth is completely fulfilled at the end of the Thousand Year Reign of Jesus Christ, who is the “Lord of the sabbath.”—Matthew 12:8; Revelation 20:1-6; 21:1-4.
From what are Christians here urged to rest? From their “own works.” What works? Works by means of which they formerly sought to prove themselves righteous. No longer do they believe that they can earn God’s approval and gain eternal life by complying with certain rules and observances. That was the error of faithless Jews who, by ‘seeking to establish their own righteousness, did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.’ (Rom. 10:3) True Christians recognize that all of us were born sinners and that it is only by faith in the sacrifice of Christ that anyone can have a righteous standing with God. They endeavor to take to heart and apply all the teachings of God’s Son. They humbly accept counsel and reproof from God’s Word. This does not mean that they think they can earn God’s approval in this way; instead, what they do is an expression of their love and faith. By such a course of life they avoid the “pattern of disobedience” of the Jewish nation.
The “seventh day,” referred to in Genesis 2:2, was not merely a 24-hour day. Similarly, the “sabbath resting” that true Christians share is not limited to a 24-hour day. By exercising faith and obeying the Bible’s counsel, they can enjoy it every day, and especially will they do so in God’s new system.
Quote just a thought……… this law everyone speaks of what if, it was the law of sacrifice, with everything else still is in place. This is very similar to the idea that the Mosaic Law is divided into “ceremonial” and “moral” parts, and that the “moral law” (the Ten Commandments) is binding on Christians.
Did Jesus refer to the Law in a manner that indicated division of it into two parts?
Matt. 5:17, 21, 23, 27, 31, 38: “Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill.” Now, notice what Jesus included in his further comments. “You heard that it was said to those of ancient times, ‘You must not murder [Ex. 20:13; the Sixth Commandment]’ . . . If, then, you are bringing your gift to the altar [Deut. 16:16, 17; no part of the Ten Commandments] . . . You heard that it was said, ‘You must not commit adultery [Ex. 20:14; the Seventh Commandment].’ Moreover it was said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce [Deut. 24:1; no part of the Ten Commandments].’ You heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth [Ex. 21:23-25; no part of the Ten Commandments].’”
So, Jesus mixed together references to the Ten Commandments and other parts of the Law, making no distinction between them. Should we treat them differently?When Jesus was asked, “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” did he isolate the Ten Commandments? Instead, he replied: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.” (Matt. 22:35-40) If some cling to the Ten Commandments (Deut. 5:6-21), saying that they are binding on Christians but that the rest are not, are they not actually rejecting what Jesus said (quoting Deut. 6:5; Lev. 19:18) as to which commandments are the greatest?
When referring to the passing away of the Mosaic Law, does the Bible directly say that the Ten Commandments were included in what came to an end?
Rom. 7:6, 7: “Now we have BEEN DISCHARGED FROM THE LAW, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast . . . What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: ‘You must not covet.’”
*****Here, immediately after writing that Jewish Christians had been “discharged from the Law,” what example from the Law does Paul cite? The Tenth Commandment, thus showing that it was included in the Law from which they had been discharged.****2 Cor. 3:7-11: “If the code which administers death and which was ENGRAVED IN LETTERS IN STONES came about in a glory, so that the sons of Israel could not gaze intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory that was to be done away with, why should not the administering of the spirit be much more with glory? . . . For if that which WAS TO BE DONE AWAY WITH was brought in with glory, much more would that which remains be with glory.”
****Reference is made here to a code that was “engraved in letters in stones” and it is said that “the sons of Israel could not gaze intently at the face of Moses” on the occasion when it was delivered to them. What is this describing? Exodus 34:1, 28-30 shows that it is the giving of the Ten Commandments; these were the commandments engraved on stone. Obviously these are included in what the scripture here says “was to be done away with.”****
Quote (now, remember….sacrifice had alot attached to it, blood, death ect.. so think just a bit ok?)
I have. I'm not sure what scriptural reasoning you would use to separate parts of the law. *see above.Quote So tell me if you could just for reference, what parts of scripture don't apply to you.
If Jesus and the Bible writers say the law was “abolished” and “done away with”, and that Christians are “discharged from the law” and if the Bible says the law was given to the “sons of Israel” (natural Israelites) then I accept that.I believe there is a pile of scriptures that support this and only one scripture that can be used against it, misused if you ask me. People don't realize that “the law” can refer to the first five books of the Bible, just like “the prophets” refers to the books of the prophets and so a few times in scripture “the law and the prophets” is used to mean the Hebrew scriptures as whole.
david
Hi david,
Eph2 esv
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called(AB) the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember(AC) that you were at that time separated from Christ,(AD) alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to(AE) the covenants of promise,(AF) having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were(AG) far off have been brought near(AH) by the blood of Christ. 14For(AI) he himself is our peace,(AJ) who has made us both one and has broken down(AK) in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in(AL) ordinances, that he might create in himself one(AM) new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might(AN) reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility.So the enmity refers to that between Jew and gentile.
Ordinances are specified fulfilled by Jesus separated Jews from the gentiles and Jews in Christ are not under them any more.
The Law itself remains.Quote The Law itself remains. Nick, did you read this scripture?
2 Cor. 3:7-11: “If the code which administers death and which was ENGRAVED IN LETTERS IN STONES came about in a glory, so that the sons of Israel could not gaze intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, a glory that was to be done away with, why should not the administering of the spirit be much more with glory? . . . For if that which WAS TO BE DONE AWAY WITH was brought in with glory, much more would that which remains be with glory.”1. Nick, what is it describing? What do the words in large Caps mean?
Rom. 7:6, 7: “Now we have BEEN DISCHARGED FROM THE LAW, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast . . . What, then, shall we say? Is the Law sin? Never may that become so! Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: ‘You must not covet.’”
2. Nick, how do you understand the words “discharged from the law” and who do you think the “we” is here?
eph 2:15:
“by abolishing the law of commandments.” (ESV)
“by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments” (NAS)3. You say “the enmity refers to that between Jew and Gentile.” Are we not told exactly and precisely what it is referrring to: “the enmity, WHICH IS the Law of Commandments.” I think what was “abolished” is clearly defined as being “the law of commandments.” What do you think is abolished and why? (I didn't understand your other sentence, as it seemed to be a few sentences put together.)
EXODUS 19:1-6
“In the third month after the SONS OF ISRAEL came out of the land of Egypt, on the same day, they came into the wilderness of Si′nai. . . .And Moses went up to the [true] God, and Jehovah began to call to him out of the mountain, saying: “This is WHAT YOU ARE TO SAY TO THE HOUSE OF JACOB AND TO TELL THE SONS OF ISRAEL, ‘YOU yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, that I might carry YOU on wings of eagles and bring YOU to myself. And now if YOU will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then YOU will certainly become my special property out of all [other] peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And YOU yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words that you are to say to the sons of Israel.””4. If they (the “sons of Israel”) kept the covenant (agreement), that is the Law covenant, THEN, they would become Jehovah's special people, and become a kingdom of priests. They did not, That is why “The kingdom of God will be taken from [them] and be given to a nation producing its fruits.” (mat 21:43) My questions to you Nick (and please do answer them) are, who does this scripture say the law covenant was binding upon? And, did they live up to their end of the covenant? And if not, is it still binding?
David.
Hi david,
Matthew 5:18
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.Lk16
17″But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.Heaven and earth have yet to pass.
But the OT Law no longer binds a reborn Jewish Christian
Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.“Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor [“the law”].” (Gal 3:24,25)
“Christ is the end of the Law.” (Rom 10:4)
Theses scriptures say to me, very clearly that:
The law was a tutor that lead them or should have lead them, to Christ. The law should have showed them that they were sinful and needed Christ. But, now that Christ and the faith arrived, what does the scripture say?: “we are no longer under a tutor,” that is, the law.
Hence, “Christ is the end of the law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.”
I cannot see how anyone could understand these words any other way? I do understand what “end” means and what “Christ” and “law” mean. I don't understand how this could be understood differently. To me, there are so many scriptures that plainly state this truth. There is only one, just one that is taken to mean otherwise and it is misunderstood and often words are left out.
david
Quote Heaven and earth have yet to pass.
So, you think the earth is going to pass away, and heaven? And the many scriptures (too many to count) that disagree?Nick, do you not think that Matthew 5:18 should be understood like Luke 16?
“But IT IS EASIER for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.”In other words, it would more likely happen that heaven itself passed away (not going to happen) than that the things stated in the law (about Jesus) should not come to pass.
Notice that the scripture does not say the law will last forever, but only that the law will not fail, or actually, that it is easy for such things to happen than for that to happen.
But, my questions? Anything?
Quote But the OT Law no longer binds a reborn Jewish Christian Are you suggesting that the law covenant is still binding, but only binding on Jews? Because guess what? They rejected Jesus. The kingdom will be taken from them and given to anther nation. They failed. They did not live up to their end of the agreement (covenant). Or do you think they did?
Hi david,
The schoolmaster has not disappeared.
Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.Quote Hi david,
The schoolmaster has not disappeared.No one said he did. This scripture for example has nothing to do with the tutor disappearing. But note what it does say:
“Consequently the Law has become our tutor leading to Christ, that we might be declared righteous due to faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a tutor [“the law”].” (Gal 3:24,25)
The law became their tutor leading to Christ.
They are no longer under a tutor [the law which lead to Christ].Quote Galatians 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.Both this scripture and the one in James show that whether you follow or break one part of the law, you are breaking or following the whole law.
“For such freedom Christ set us free. Therefore stand fast, and do not let yourselves be confined again in a yoke of slavery. See! I, Paul, am telling you that if you become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you. Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. You are parted from Christ, whoever you are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; you have fallen away from his undeserved kindness.” (Gal. 5:1-4; 3:10-14)
Nick, what is this scripture you quoted actually saying in whole? And, I'm answering or trying to answer your questions. What of mine? I even numbered them to make them look like real questions that you could answer.
david
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
