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T8,
Hebrews 1:7&13
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.This is a poor though common translation as both messengers and servants are angels.
Hebrews 1:7 GOD’S WORD Translation (GW)
7 God said about the angels,
“He makes his messengers winds.
He makes his servants flames of fire.”God makes his messengers swift and his servants zealous.
Some Jews teach angel messengers are created from air and angel servants from fire but what I wrote fits the context better.
t8,
But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Have you considered that the words spirits also means “8: a person having a character or disposition of a specified nature” and when using it there is no longer a need to invent the idea that angels have the ability to assume both corporeal and non-corporeal forms. (Merriam-Webster online dictionary)
It is used but not commonly in our society. This is an example from a comment about a retiring professor.
Honoring Professor Bryan RobertsFor those of us who have studied migration related topics he is definitely ‘maestro de maestros’ — he has mentored some of the most influential maestras and maestros in immigration studies in the social sciences. He is a kind spirit and will be missed.
—Gloria Gonzalez Lopez, Associate Professor of Sociologyt8,
Angels might have the ability to assume both corporeal and non corporeal forms. Really the scriptures do not teach that much about angels.
That idea makes Jesus look like a deceiver as then his tests would not prove he was not a spirit in corporeal form.
The only way to avoid it is to specifically claim Jesus meant he was not ghost but used the more generic term spirit instead.
Hi KW,
“but what I wrote fits the context better”
You are your own greatest fan.
But you should look beyond your confines.
Nick,
I only voice what I observe. The context of Hebrews 1:7 is not speaking of what the body of either servants or messengers is composed of. It is just the word winds-spirit is included that make the Gnostic argument that angels are non-corporeal creature convincing to some.
The context is God declaring him his chief son (Hebrews 1:5), king of all things in heaven and on earth (Hebrews 1:8-9), and foundation of the creation (Hebrews 1:10-12).
I see the Gnostic interpretation of Hebrews 1:7 as deeply flawed.
Hi KW,
So any idea that does not match yours is gnostic?
You assume that because angels may at times seem to be material they all are always?
Nick,
You assume that because angels may at times seem to be material they all are always?
As I said to t8, there is no reason to add to Scripture when interpreting certain passages resolves the contradiction.
Hi KW,
Since much of what you say is based on presumption rather than truth are you not becoming a law unto yourself?
Nick,
Gnostic hold the corporeal world is flawed at best. Their angels are incorporeal beings. A number of Christian Gnostic sects were part of the early Christian church. The church of the Roman empire is known to adopt even Pagan ideas or they would not teach the Jesus is God. As you say, come out of her.
Nick,
Hi KW,
Since much of what you say is based on presumption rather than truth are you not becoming a law unto yourself?
You fail to present a case while I am bold in presenting the case I have as to why angels are not spiritual beings.
You have to explain the discrepancy between why incorporeal being can both eat and be touched and I do not.
All I have to do is point out that you are misunderstanding certain passage you believe support your claim that angels are incorporeal beings. As I have said I bold present my case as to why that is so.
Hi KW,
Is water always liquid? Can you not accept there may be variation?
Such thinking is blindly legalistic.
Do not frame us as gnostic because we do not fit your legalistic boxes.
Nick,
You have not made a case so it follows you do not have a case but have lost your struggle with sin in you or you believe you lack the knowledge to point out and flaws in my case.
I see no reason to find an “implied” teaching when all I need to do is interpret certain verses differently.
Nick,
The Lord will judge between our teachings.
Yours has a need to go outside of what is written while mine does not.
The spirit of your doctrine does not test true.
That idea makes Jesus look like a deceiver as then his tests would not prove he was not a spirit in corporeal form.
The only way to avoid it is to specifically claim Jesus meant he was not ghost but used the more generic term spirit instead.Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men
Spiritual is form. There is a flesh body and a spiritual body according to Paul.
And if having the nature of God and then emptying himself and taking flesh makes him a deceiver, then he must be a deceiver if what you say is correct. Personally my opinion is he is not a deceiver and came from above and took on human flesh while here and is now in the glory he had with the Father before the cosmos. This is my view if I believe what I read. It is clear that Christ was revealed in a human body.
t8,
Spiritual is form. There is a flesh body and a spiritual body according to Paul.
Paul did not say that his words are to the effect that there is a soulish body and a Spiritual body. It equivalent to saying there is a godless body and a godly body. He is using a OT teaching that many English language bible obscure because that translate the Hebrew and Greek words that are close synonyms of soul to other words but soul.
You can look word translated “natural” 1 Corinthians 15 of the KJV and you will find it is in fact the adjective form of soul.
t8,
And if having the nature of God and then emptying himself and taking flesh makes him a deceiver, then he must be a deceiver if what you say is correct.
Romans 1:4 testifies that Jesus is the Son of God, as of the Spirit and that was declared with power by his resurrection from the dead.
Romans 1:3 testifies that Jesus Christ is the Son of the seed of David, as of the flesh.If you desire to remain true to Scripture your teaching must agree with both of those.
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