Rene descartes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes
http://www.iep.utm.edu/d/descarte.htm
http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/Mind/Descartes.html

Participant

Hi,
Jodi uses this man's words as her signature.
Perhaps we should see where he comes from.

It seems that he was of the world

July 15, 2009 at 2:09 am#137613

Participant

I just noticed this trying to go back and look for a particular thread.

Thanks for the links Nick, I'll check it out. I know little about Rene Descartes other then he was a French philosopher and mathematician, I stumbled across his quote awhile back on a website full of famous quotes. Being a person who finds lies and deceit everywhere from mainstream Christian doctrine to evolutionary science that's in our children's textbooks, this quote really struck a cord with me.

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.

Anyone else like the quote? Personally I think it is great advice, don't know much about the man, but the quote is good and I think it fits well on this forum.

July 15, 2009 at 4:01 am#137620

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Descartes

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,14:09)

I just noticed this trying to go back and look for a particular thread.

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.

Anyone else like the quote? Personally I think it is great advice, don't know much about the man, but the quote is good and I think it fits well on this forum.

You HYPOCRITE! You go out of the Bible to be educated by someone who doesn't even claim to be inspired by God and then you condemn a belief that says it is inspired by God.

So what about the Idol of Jodi? What does his peers say of his time?

The religious beliefs of René Descartes have been rigorously debated within scholarly circles. He claimed to be a devout Roman Catholic, claiming that one of the purposes of the Meditations was to defend the Christian faith. However, in his own era, Descartes was accused of harboring secret deist or atheist beliefs. Contemporary Blaise Pascal said that “I cannot forgive Descartes; in all his philosophy he did his best to dispense with God. But he could not avoid making Him set the world in motion with a flip of His thumb; after that he had no more use for God.”[15]

Jodi,

PURE MONOTHEISM is less than ATHEISM?

July 15, 2009 at 4:08 am#137621

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Descartes

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 15 2009,16:01)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,14:09)

I just noticed this trying to go back and look for a particular thread.

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.

Anyone else like the quote? Personally I think it is great advice, don't know much about the man, but the quote is good and I think it fits well on this forum.

You HYPOCRITE! You go out of the Bible to be educated by someone who doesn't even claim to be inspired by God and then you condemn a belief that says it is inspired by God.

So what about the Idol of Jodi? What does his peers say of his time?

Jodi,

PURE MONOTHEISM is less than ATHEISM?

Whoah dude,

I just said I don't KNOW much about Rene Descartes, so that would certainly MEAN I have NOT been educated by him.

Like I said I was on a website that had a list of famous quotes from presidents to Winston Churchhill, to Gandhi, to Socrates. I was reading quotes man, get a grip, calm down and make sure you have facts strait before calling someone a hypocrite.

July 15, 2009 at 4:33 am#137624

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rene_Descartes

Participant

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,16:08)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 15 2009,16:01)

Quote (Jodi Lee @ July 15 2009,14:09)

I just noticed this trying to go back and look for a particular thread.

If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things.

Anyone else like the quote? Personally I think it is great advice, don't know much about the man, but the quote is good and I think it fits well on this forum.

You HYPOCRITE! You go out of the Bible to be educated by someone who doesn't even claim to be inspired by God and then you condemn a belief that says it is inspired by God.

So what about the Idol of Jodi? What does his peers say of his time?

Jodi,

PURE MONOTHEISM is less than ATHEISM?

Whoah dude,

I just said I don't KNOW much about Rene Descartes, so that would certainly MEAN I have NOT been educated by him.

Jodi,

You just got holier than thou about me Quoting from a renowed religion that believes in PURE MONOTHEISM and you said everyone should disengage from dialogue with me and yet you as I said are in bed with Atheists and all sorts of beliefs that are non-biblical but you don't wriote agains atheist-catholic rene descartes you write against Muslim- Bodhitharta You are a HYPOCRITE and a Snake.

You should apologize that you attack me while hugging tightly to an Atheist-Universal-Salvationist.

I see why you wanted ME to go somewhere else. Satan has truly made you believe he is not YOUR Enemy.

I love you anyway and may God Bless you.

July 15, 2009 at 6:51 am#137631

Participant

Hi BD,

This is what I said to you,

“I think it is safe to say, more and more people on this forum are probably not going to bother engaging you.”

This is hardly saying “everyone SHOULD disengage from dialogue” with you. Who's the snake, why are you falsifying my words?

I also said the following,

“Ever since I saw you give authority to the Quran I've pretty much passed over most of your posts. Now that I know this bit about you and your view of Jesus I will probably pass over your posts all the more.”

I don't give ANY other book except the bible authority. Period. I have read parts of other books such as the Quran, and the Book of Enoch, to name two, not looking for truth but to check what their content was out of curiosity. There was a guy on this forum not to long ago who believed in the Urantia Book I didn't care discussing the bible with him either because he gave authority of truth to that book over the bible, and it was just not the focus of what I want to discuss.

You said, “and yet you as I said are in bed with Atheists and all sorts of beliefs that are non-biblical but you don't wriote agains atheist-catholic rene descartes you write against Muslim- Bodhitharta You are a HYPOCRITE and a Snake.”

How is it I am in bed with Rene Descartes, I have not read a single thing he wrote? I have NO idea what he believes. How does that make me in bed with him? Once again, I said I found a quote of his and I liked it because I found it to be true. Anyway as far as atheists are concerned, I have many friends who are atheists and they have God's heart written on their hearts, they may not know the law, or know God but God certainly knows them, and He will under His will bring them into the love of the truth, for YHWH is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance, and He is the Savior of ALL men, especially those who believe.

Because I like a person's quote that existed hundreds of years ago, that makes me “hugging tightly to an Atheist-Universal-Salvationist.” ABSURD!

You said, “I see why you wanted ME to go somewhere else.”

What I said last night was,

“You have every right BD to share your belief and follow what you know to be true, however you should remember you're on a Christian forum that is about debating the bible. Maybe you should stick to the 'Other Writings category', when discussing the Quran. I think that would be respectful, just my thoughts.”

So what exactly is your major malfunction?

You said, “Satan has truly made you believe he is not YOUR Enemy.”

I would be more then happy to discuss the Hebrew word for adversary with you, if you stuck only to the bible that is, otherwise, no thanks.

BD, so you “love me anyway”, well how nice of you, if I cared I would have swallowed it reluctant of it's sincerity.

Thanks anyway, Jodi

July 15, 2009 at 6:58 am#137632

Participant

Hi BD,
Love to you seems similar to hugging a popcupine.

July 15, 2009 at 3:28 pm#137666

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2009,18:58)

Hi BD,
Love to you seems similar to hugging a popcupine.

You don't think Jesus loved Peter when he said “get behind me Satan”?

July 15, 2009 at 3:53 pm#137668

Participant

Jesus also KNEW Peter personally, they spent considerable time together. Jesus called Peter adversary because his THOUGHT was not of God, but was of the MIND OF MEN. Thus we see Jesus refer to adversary or satan as it is mistranslated, as being thoughts that are of the mind of man and not of God. Thus making our carnal mind our greatest adversary for it knows not God, but must have God's spirit working in it to be of God.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

Mt 18:7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!

1Co 1:19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” F1 20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,

Ps 73:22 I was so foolish and ignorant; I was like a beast before You.

Ps 81:12 So I gave them over to their own stubborn heart, To walk in their own counsels

Pr 14:14 The backslider in heart will be filled with his own ways, But a good man will be satisfied from above.

Pr 18:2 A fool has no delight in understanding, But in expressing his own heart.

Peter was satan because the evil spirit in him was a thought coming from his own ignorant foolish heart.

July 15, 2009 at 7:56 pm#137688

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,03:28)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2009,18:58)

Hi BD,
Love to you seems similar to hugging a popcupine.

You don't think Jesus loved Peter when he said “get behind me Satan”?

Hi BD,
Did he say that to Peter or to the satan in Peter?
He said the same thing to satan on the top of the temple.

July 15, 2009 at 10:09 pm#137708

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 16 2009,07:56)

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 16 2009,03:28)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 15 2009,18:58)

Hi BD,
Love to you seems similar to hugging a popcupine.

You don't think Jesus loved Peter when he said “get behind me Satan”?

Hi BD,
Did he say that to Peter or to the satan in Peter?
He said the same thing to satan on the top of the temple.

He said it to Satan in Peter but I'm sure Peter would have thought he said it to him. Jesus loved Peter and that is exactly what I was saying to Jodi or to what I considered to be Satan in Jodi.

Not against flesh and blood but against principalities and spirits.

July 15, 2009 at 10:25 pm#137713

Participant

Hi BD,
You can read Peter's thoughts too?
we can know satan knew he was being addressed as his name was used.

October 2, 2009 at 7:28 pm#148319

Participant

Hi,
From CA

Quote
If you want to wax philosophical then I can prove nothing but “I think therefore I am” and that everything beyond that is taken on faith.

Descartes (a devout Catholic) believed in the objective content of divine revelation, but he sought a way of presenting the reality of God to skeptics who would not accept revelation as an avenue of truth.

Descartes hoped to bring clarity to the belief in God by applying mathematical and scientific methods. He desired to build a kind of calculus of faith, starting from some fundamental principle which even the skeptics could not deny, and working to the undeniable existence of God. To this end, he began to examine everything in the world from the skeptic's point of view, creating a procedure that came to be known as “methodic doubt.”

He first concluded that the man's senses are not reliable. A stick looks straight when it is held in the air, but looks bent when it is stuck in the water. Since both the true and false images of the stick are presented to the mind by the same senses, the senses cannot be trusted.

(Here he ignored the fact that, using all of his senses, man can confirm the stick to be straight. This is characteristic of a scientific method that tends to dissect things and isolate one attribute from all others when analyzing anything.)

Next he concluded that the mind of man, trapped inside a body fed unreliable information by the senses, cannot be certain that the images it receives truly represent reality. He went so far as to speculate that some evil higher being could be feeding the information to the mind, making it think that there is an objective world out there when in fact there is not. In the long run, Descartes concluded that almost everything we normally take for granted can be doubted.

It was not that Descartes himself doubted. He was examining everything from the perspective of a skeptic to find something even the skeptic could not doubt. What he found is summed up in the phrase, “Cogito, ergo sum” (“I think, therefore I am”). No skeptic could doubt this. Even if the entire world is an illusion, the skeptic, by the simple fact that he is pondering the illusion, must admit that he himself exists.

After demonstrating the certainty of his own existence as a thinking mind, Descartes reasoned his way back to the existence of the world and to the existence of a God who is all good and therefore would not fool man by creating the world as an illusion.

The validity of Descartes' reasoning was challenged for being, among other things, circular, but an important.aspect of his thought remains with us to this day-the concept of man as a mind trapped in a body. It is because of Descartes' thus splitting man that today one can still pick up popular books about the so-called “mind/body problem.”

Descartes himself was not very interested in this problem. The important point is that this severing of the mind from the body was a direct divergence from the previously established Scholastic and Catholic view of man as a composed unity of body and soul. The human soul, in the Scholastic sense, is much more than a mind. It is the substantial form of a man. It is the nature of the soul to form the body, and the body and soul together are the man.

Man, in this sense, has direct knowledge of the objective world around him because he sees it, hears it, tastes it, puts his hands on it. It is evident to him, and need not be proven. This is not to say that some knowledge of the world does not result from proofs. Through proofs one can come to the knowledge, for example, that the tangent of an angle is always equal to the inverse of the cotangent of that same angle.

But one can know that a river exists by seeing it and putting one's feet in it. This type of knowledge is more certain than knowledge obtained by proofs. It cannot, and need not, be proven through a series of mathematical or logical propositions and conclusions.

Unfortunately, there was no great Scholastic philosopher among Descartes' associates to hammer this point home. As a consequence, modern philosophy has thought of man ever since in a dualistic manner: mind distinct from body.

Descartes' division of man created a division in modern philosophy itself. Some philosophers believed, like Descartes, that the only things we can know with certainty are concepts in the mind. These are the “Rationalists.” A counter-movement thought we can know things for sure only through our senses; what is in our minds, since it cannot be sensed, measured, and weighed, is basically unknowable. These are the “Empiricists.”

It is beyond the scope of our discussion here to trace out the various schools of thought spawned by these two philosophies, but it can be known that they all came to despair because each was looking at only a part of man while trying to understand how man as a whole can know things.

THIS IS THE CONTEXT OF “I think therefore I am”.

If we are going to have any intelligent discussion about this, I thought we should have the same background information and understanding.

Philosophers have never been much use in leading men to salvation.

October 2, 2009 at 7:33 pm#148322

Catholic Apologist

Participant

Everyone should be clear. These are not my words, but someone I was responding to:

“Quote
If you want to wax philosophical then I can prove nothing but “I think therefore I am” and that everything beyond that is taken on faith.”

January 4, 2010 at 8:02 am#168508