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Quote Well this was post-ascention so I would have thought He was in heaven. Didn't Jesus appear to the disciples for 40 days after His resurrection and expound the scriptures as they related to Himself to them? It seems that He had some UNFINISHED business on earth even after His resurrection. There's no reason to think that He went back to heaven right after the Ascension, especially if He STILL had some unfinished business.
Quote Whether He physically leaves the seat at the athers right hand and comes to earth or opens a portal to our dimension(s) from His seat, who could say? Personally, I think they step through from another dimension. Although somewhat vague, it appears that heaven (the abode of God et al) is on the other side of the universe (Gen:1:6,7). Man often talks about the fabric of space and, in fact, there are a couple of scriptures which describe outer space as a curtain which can be torn open. In Revelation, it is described as a scroll being rolled up. Both of these descriptions suggest that opening a corridor through space would be the likely way of visiting earth (as opposed to travelling across the universe.
Quote ship? I don't get you. How would you travel quickly from Israel to China or North America or South America? I'm sure that you could find a better means of transportation than walking…or by camel. Ezekiel rode in a flying “chariot”. Would you call that a ship?
Quote Since you believe Rev to be generally sequential and Jesus second coming occurs in Rev 19, why is it that you link two seperate events described two chapters apart as occurring concurrently? Read Rev:11:15-19. Compare it with Rev:14:14-20 and Rev:15 and Rev:16:12-21 and Rev:17:14 and Rev:19:7, 9 and 19:11-21. I wouldn't say that these are all sequential but often the same event is REVISITED chapters later (even several times). Observe how the same event is described again and again in subsequent chapters. It's a bit confusing (to say the least) but you may be right about the appearance of New Jerusalem. It appears to happen after the judgment and/or at the end of the millenial reign. It may be, however, that New Jerusalem does not land upon the earth at Jesus' return and this would explain why those 'raptured' would meet Him in the air (in the clouds) to return with Him down to the earth.
Another verse that ties in with New Jerusalem:
Mi. 4:1 In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and peoples will stream to it.
Mi. 4:2 Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Mi. 4:3 He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war any more.What do you think this describes and where does it fit in the timeline?
Hi bic
Acts 1. 10
“And as they were gazing intently into the sky while he was departing , behold two men in white clothing stood beside them;and they also said
'Men of Galilee,why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who HAS BEEN TAKEN UP FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN will come in just the same way as YOU HAVE WATCHED HIM GO INTO HEAVEN”
Scripture says he went to heaven at this time and he did not need to wait around to finish his role. Yes he appeared back amongst them, and when Paul was visited by him it is likely he was in his heavenly body, but why should we find that difficult to grasp?I cannot understand why you would believe the creator of the universe would need to design and build human forms of transportation??
Hi ; This man has found that when we have a many ” bibles ” and do some quoteing and research, we give out point of views that are great and some that are
. Wasn't their a 1st resurrection at Calvery?… When we die are we not judged?… Who is the dead in Christ? …or how can you be alive in Christ and be dead?….Where do we go at the point of death? ….. Pardice? or Hell? or some holding place somewhere between here and there? When we answere these questions we grow opinions and facts. This man believes that we must go through the fire to reach heaven Rom 5:
…..food for thought…..Rev.20:12 Quickquote. “and the dead were judged” ………..Grace to all……….Hi Happyman,
Your question about 'paradise' deserves closer analysis than I have given it in the past. I realise now it is not a waiting place for the Jews known as the Bosom of Abraham in Lk 16.Paul spoke of it as part of heaven in 2 Cor 12.4
Rev 2.7 speaks of it being the place wherein is the tree of life. That tree was on earth when Adam walked in the garden of Eden in Gen 3.22. Again it is on earth in Rev 22.2 in the heavenly Jerusalem.
So what of the statement in Lk 23 43 when Yeshua promised the good thief he would be with him 'today' 'in Paradise'?
Presumably that reflects the heavenly place of Paul?
Hi happyman,
How can you be alive but dead? Easy if you realise death of the Body is only sleep for the soul and if you have died in Yeshua you are asleep in Christ till his return.Quote I cannot understand why you would believe the creator of the universe would need to design and build human forms of transportation?? For HUMANS? (Did He even NEED to create and form humans?)
Quote Scripture says he went to heaven at this time and he did not need to wait around to finish his role. The word heaven, just like hell, is used to represent three very different places. The first heaven is the atmosphere of the earth, where the birds fly. The second heaven is outer space. The third heaven is where God et al reside (across the universe). It is only an assumption that leads one to believe that Jesus went up to the third heaven (immediately at His ascension).
Quote This man believes that we must go through the fire to reach heaven… Indeed we will…everyone will be “salted” by fire. However, is this 'fire' a literal fire or is it the 'fire' of the Spirit, as in “baptize you in fire”? Also, since flesh and blood can not enter into heaven and we will be given a glorified body, some bodies being changed in a twinkling of the eye at Christ's return, could it be some kind of fire that He zaps us with at His return, eliminating the flesh and converting us into a spiritual being? More food for thought…
Quote So what of the statement in Lk 23 43 when Yeshua promised the good thief he would be with him 'today' 'in Paradise'? It's a matter of grammar, a simple placing of the comma in the correct place or of placing the word “today” in the right context. Two VERY different meanings come from moving the comma and/or changing the context:
First, He could be telling the thief that this very same day that they are hanging on the cross they will both be going to “paradise” (contradictory meaning): Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
OR
Second, Jesus could have been using “Today” as an adjective to describe the moment when He is telling him that he will be in paradise with Him (agreeing with the rest of scripture): Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. (as in, I'm telling you RIGHT NOW!)
My explanation is that the Romans (bishops, priests, catholics) put the comma BEFORE “To day” instead of AFTER (where it belonged) to further their apostate beliefs (in a separate 'paradise' as imagined by Dante and others).
happy man: The “dead” of Rev:20:12 that are “standing” before God have been “resurrected” in the second (?) resurrection AFTER the millenial reign (see Rev:20:5). No doubt that they have been resurrected back into destructible flesh and blood bodies. They will suffer a SECOND DEATH.
Since there will be no more death, as recording in the following chapter, all flesh and blood (mortal life) will be destroyed. Only eternal beings will exist in the new heaven and earth.
Hi Bic,
Fair enough. God did not need to create humans. Certainly the weak natural body was not designed for interplanetary travel, let alone entry to heaven. So since he needs the heavenly body to enter Heaven [1Cor 15.50f] then I suggest he was clothed with it as he was lifted up from earth. I suggest such a body does not need air or the normal needs of a natural body and it is imperishable in space too.It is put on over the old[1 Cor 15.53] so no zapping required.And “heaven” can mean “sky” or the “universe” I agree. “The heavens” can mean “all the heavens” or the universe too. But the context usually helps clarify this issue and other scriptures telling us the Son of God returned to his Father in heaven[Dan7.13f,1Peter 3.22, Coll3.1etc] so I believe that is what Acts 1.9-11 means.
We do know that Jesus went into The Heaven because he was seen there by Stephen in Acts 7.59. We also know that Jesus will return the way he left-on the clouds. Ps 18.10 suggests he will be transported back by a cherub!
Our faith buildings are tested by fire in this life[1Cor 3.10f]Thanks, Nick, for your kind response. I agree with pretty much everthing that you said except the part about putting on the new OVER the old. Read the verses about new and old wine in new and old wineskins for a better understanding of why the flesh and blood bodies will not EXIST beneath our glorified bodies. In science, there are MIXTURES and COMPOUNDS. Your explanation is like a mixture, where each separate element keeps its characteristics intact. I believe that a compound better describes the transition, where each element is changed, BOTH becoming something NEW.
Nevertheless, when Jesus returns, there will still be humans left upon the earth. Since mankind has an AFFINITY towards TECHNOLOGY, I see no reason why God won't show them wonders (of technology) that they have never even dreamed of. In fact, even though man's CONSCIENCE will hardly deter him from evil, SUPERIOR FORCE often will. This is why Jesus is returning with a SWORD, ruling man with a rod of IRON!
Jesus IS in heaven, even now He sits on the right hand of God. Yet, even still, there is no definitive timeline of when He went up to the third heaven and/or a definite law as to how often He might visit the Earth. Also, it might be an angel or even the Holy Spirit that speaks for Jesus in any given event. Who can know?
By the way, what is a cherub? Is there a description somewhere in scripture that definitely defines a cherub as a living being or could it be a metaphor for something else?
Hi bic,
Satan is reputed to have been a cherub[ Ez 28.14] so that makes them of the angelic order and they possibly are archangels since Satan seemed to have equivalent rights with other sons of God [archangels] in Job 1-2, 2Peter 2[angelic majesties] and Jude. They are often described in carved form around the ark of the covenant. How humans knew their form so they could carve them to God's instructions beats me! They are also described as being near the throne of God in Ez 10. The scripture about them in Ps 18 is also in 2Sam 22.11.
How do you read 1 Cor 15 53-54?
It still baffles me how any technological marvel could compare with our sun in your mind?Don't get me wrong, Nick, there is NOTHING that man can create that will ever come close to the wonder of God's creation. What I am speaking of, of course, is not only the heavenly bodies (the stars and even space itself) but the incredible life forms and life cycles on the earth itself. It is just too awesome to comprehend. Rivers, deserts, jungles, mountains, valleys, oceans; the innumerable variety of life living in each environment; the weather, the minerals, and chemistry; the human body itself, without even considering the mind. Truly mind-boggling. With all of creation crying out the Creator's name, how could anyone EVER deny God? Satan is really good at what he does, isn't he?
Yet, it is IMPOSSIBLE to read Ezekiel, for example, and IGNORE the OBVIOUS references to technology. Mankind is just now exploring gyroscopic propulsion for space travel. Do a google search on that for a real eye-opener. Yet, if one reads the accounts (and I DO believe that scripture is what spurs on mankind's technological advancements) in Ezekiel (of wheels within wheels), they will discover amazing descriptions which reveal exactly that…gyroscopic propulsion. Read Ezekiel Chapter 1 and if you can envision anything OTHER than technology, you have a better imagination than me.
As far as cherubs: In Ezekiel 10, the cherubim are an integral part of the design (of the vessel described). Ezekiel seems to think that these cherubim are living beings but, from the context and description, it is very doubtful that they were. Compare to Chapter 1. Nevertheless, cherubim are first mentioned when Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden. Along with a “flaming sword” (surely a metaphor for what?), they were put there to guard entry into the Garden and access to the Tree of Life. They were assuredly terrifying creatures and not at all like the angelic little 'tubbies' often portrayed as Cupid. Although cherubim may indeed be a type of living creature, images of cherubim are much more numerous in scripture, such as those covering the mercy seat of the ark and those pictured in Ezekiel.
Hi bic,
Michael started a forum on Ezekiel 1[book of enoch,dds and the bible].
Scripture is clear that cherubim are not cherubs[Ez 10.4,9.3] I am not sure but I think it is the angelic being near the throne and described in Ez 8 2-3.
The beings with wheels are called cherubim[ez10.15],20], in Ez they are living beings[v 5,13,15,20,22]But the wheels are not necessarily to do with locomotion at all but contain the spirit of the beings[ez 1.20-21]
I get the impression they together form the earthly throne of God's glory.[Ez 10.2f Dan7.9]Ps
What of the “Man of Sin”and the Man with the number 666? Are these not MEN?
The beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. Do you believe these are political systems?Paradise
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 02 2005,14:42) Hi Happyman,
Your question about 'paradise' deserves closer analysis than I have given it in the past. I realise now it is not a waiting place for the Jews known as the Bosom of Abraham in Lk 16.Paul spoke of it as part of heaven in 2 Cor 12.4
Rev 2.7 speaks of it being the place wherein is the tree of life. That tree was on earth when Adam walked in the garden of Eden in Gen 3.22. Again it is on earth in Rev 22.2 in the heavenly Jerusalem.
So what of the statement in Lk 23 43 when Yeshua promised the good thief he would be with him 'today' 'in Paradise'?
Presumably that reflects the heavenly place of Paul?
My opinion on Paradise is as follows:Paradise is not so much a place but a description of a state or description of a perfect place that is not the throne or Heavenly Jerusalem. My thoughts are as follows:
1) Paradise existed in Hades for the righteous dead. But Jesus preached to the dead and the dead were raised up into Paradise in Heaven. This paradise no longer exists as death has expanded to this once place of the righteous.
2) The Garden of Eden was a paradise. But Adam and Eve were cast out of paradise because of sin. It was God's will that the earth become a paradise as man was to be fruitful and multiply. But man willed instead to be wowed by the temptation of our Adversity. So paradise was lost and guardian Cherubs blocked the way for them to go back.
3) Paradise in Heaven is the area that exists outside of the Great City, Heavenly Jerusalem. It is a dwelling place for the righteous and a beautiful area of parks and landscapes. The river of life that flows out from the throne and down the streets of H/Jerusalem flow right out into Paradise.
Here are some scriptures to consider when judging my view:
Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”That day Jesus went to Hades (he was raised to Heaven more than 3 days later) and preached to the dead. I think that he would have gone to the wicked side of Hades (the fire) due to taking our sin, but overcame death. He also went to the righteous side (Abraham's bosom) and I think that he preached to them and freed them. That is why we see the grave stones opening up and the righteous from old raised up. I think that they were taken to the paradise in Heaven as Jesus overcame death. “Behold I have the keys of death and hades”.
2 Corinthians 12:4
was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.This paradise appears to be in Heaven.
Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.Not sure if this is Heaven, the new earth, or both. But paradise either way we look at it.
Here is a link to a vision of Paradise and the River of Life.
I personally can guarantee that this vision was true.Hi Nick,
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 05 2005,01:27) Hi bic,
Satan is reputed to have been a cherub[ Ez 28.14] so that makes them of the angelic order and they possibly are archangels since Satan seemed to have equivalent rights with other sons of God [archangels] in Job 1-2, 2Peter 2[angelic majesties] and Jude.
Satan was the 'Chief Cherub'. So does the word 'chief' imply 'archangel'. That certainly seems to be the consensus among many Christians and it certainly could be correct.Hi t8,
Ez 28.14f” You were in Eden..you were the anointed cherub who covers and I placed you there…. and I have destroyed you O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire…I cast you to the ground ,I put you before kings that they may see you…You have become terrified and you will cease to be forever”If 'covering' means 'In Charge” then he would have been the highest Archangel. The Son of God had greater power and authority but he would have been over Michael and that is perhaps why Michael shows him so much respect in Jude 9?
It's possible, although the NIV tranlates it as a guardian cherub as opposed to the guardian cherub. Not sure which is correct.
Ezekiel 28:14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.Also, Is Michael a Cheribim, Seraphim? Does anyone know?
Isaiah 6:2
Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying.Ezekiel 10:20-21
20 These were the living creatures I had seen beneath the God of Israel by the Kebar River, and I realized that they were cherubim.
21 Each had four faces and four wings, and under their wings was what looked like the hands of a man.It appears that Cherub and Seraph have differing amount of wings, (in these descriptions at least).
Is there a discussion about Angels? Perhaps we should start one up as it seems to be talked about a lot?
Hi t8, There is a forum on fallen angels and the one mentioned above in”the Book of Enoch, dds and the bible” covers a lot of ground on Seraphim and Cherubim. Seraphim are well shown in Is 6.1-6 as angelic beings in attendance on the throne of God. Perhaps they are the four, six winged beings in Rev 4 with unique faces again attending the throne?
I started a new discussion called Angels. So it can include Holy and fallen angels. That other discussion had a lot more than angels in it, so I felt to start a new discussion.
thx
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