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Tim, of course he is with believers now in spirit, the holy spirit lives in us, and you know he is there, BUT Jesus is returning in the flesh, the bible tells us that, and every eye will see him.
katjo: If Jesus is with us in spirit then we are his physical body. Are we not the body of Christ? Are we the Chruch which is his body? If I look at you and I know that Jesus is within you then I am looking at Jesus. If I look at you and refuse to see Jesus in you then you are not my brother, then we would be separated. Jesus actually said, I will come(or manifest) in a new form(Spirit) so that where I am, there you may be also! Another place Jesus said, and I will pray the father and he will come and we will make our abode(home) in you. So if you accept it, God the Father of all, Jesus his word, and Christ his annointing all dwell in mankind as well as everywhere.This is the new birth. You must die to take on Christ. When you take on Christ then you are one. If you die to you and take on Christ then are you resurrected to a new life in Christ. To those that accept and believe this they reap life as sons of God. To those who reject the Truth they reap life in pain and suffering in this world. Jesus said, whatsoever you sow, that also shall ye reap. If we sow to the Spirit of life the fruit of love, peace, joy and God into this world, that will be the fruit produced in this life. If we sow pain, anger, destruction and evil into this world that is the byproduct(crop) we will receive in return.
One more thing to think on. If Jesus left the Temple made without hands(us) and came back to the middle east to a temple made with hands,bricks and mortar how would he rule? The same way he told us to rule! He would rule the world through love the same as the world should be ruled now. Love accepts, it doesn't take. Love is kind, it doesn't war. Love is patient and would wait for all love creations to come to the knowledge that love is life and is the only thing that will last! There is much more to consider. How would the eyes on this side of the world see him on that side of the world? Television right? Its so much better now because he is everywhere for people to choose, life or death. Life in God or death apart from God, ALL IN THE MIND!! Bless you, TKQuote (katjo @ Sep. 19 2009,14:04) Day of the Lord is Gods wrath. I have a very intresting book on Rev. we got from our church. We have two pastor's in our area who have their own churchs and host a christian radio station. They have got together and wrote a book on Rev.Im going to skip to the middle of the book (even tho it would be better to read from beginning)and let you see the explanation they give.It quotes: John 6:38-39, John 6:44 and John 6:54 than it quotes: all these scripts speak of believers being raised at the last day. This is the last day of human goverment, and the first day of Gods goverment on earth. there are two specific resurrections spoken of in Rev. 1).the first resurrection 2. The resurrection at the Great White Throne Judgment, this resurrection occurs after the Millennium.(is discussed later on in the book) Than it quotes Rev 20:4-5 if you want to read. Scripture shows the ones who make the first resurrection are Those beheaded for the witness of Christ(does not mean every christian will be beheaded)@ Those who did not love their lives into death 3. those who did not receive the mark of the beast 4. those who did not worship the beast. This description given is clearly saints who endured, or were martyred, during the great tribulation. On other words, the first resurrection occurs atfter satans wrath, which includes the mark of the beast.This lines up with all the scripts we have studied.(I didnt go back threw and get them all) Those who make the first rsurrection are the ones who rule and reign with Christ 1000 yrs. The rest of the dead do not rise until after 1000- year reign of Christ is fulfilled. At the end of the 1000 years we see the Great white Throne Judgment. At that time if a persons name is not found in the book of life they are cast into the lake of fire.. Consider this: If the rapture took place befor the antiChrist is revealed, then Rev. 20;4-5 would not make any sense. In other words it would have to be called the second resurrection. what we have learned is that the rapture occurs at the last trumpet, which is after the “tribulation of those days”. There are only two resurrections spoken of in the bible, we have learned that the gathering of the Saints occurs after the antichrist is revealed.In order to make any other case we would have to take scripts. out of context. It goes on to say that -we realize this is not popular teaching, Yes, we would all love for the rapture to occur befor Satans wrath, However we must except what scripture tells us and not what our flesh desires. God will give His children strength in these times the same as he did in the early church. we have the same holy spirit that allowed the apostles and early disciples to operate in wisdom and power as they lived under an oppressive Roman goverment. God has not given us a spirit of fear but has not sugarcoated what lies ahead on the worlds stage. he reveals these events for a reason so we can be ready to do His will, and have impact on the harvest of souls. I will add more later!
katjoWhen you read through the OT you will find that there were days of the Lord before, but I do agree, this last day of the Lord will be God's judgment on the entire evil world.
As for the second resurrection being after the 1000 years I have to disagree. I can see how you would think that the way it reads, but it would not make any sense if you consider how many people have not their name written in the book of life, how could they? never even have heard the name Jesus by which they must be saved?
Jesus died for all mankind, consequently all mankind must have an opportunity to get to know Jesus, and what he is teaching. That he will do during the 1000 years, it is then when they obey, and get their name into the book of life and live, or ythey reject his teaching and get thrown into the lake of fire.
The reason the bible says, “the dead did not live again until the 1000 years were finished” is, because Satan will be loosed after the 1000 years and give mankind a final test, you follow Satan, you failed the test and die, therefore, you are considered dead until you pass that test.
As far as the rapture is concerned, that is a myth, it is not scriptural, read my artical on that subject in the beginning of this thread.Georg
Its really quite simple, if you read the New Testament looking for wrath, death and destruction, like saying the day of the lord is the wrath of God then what you will find is death, pain, suffering, destruction and a burning hell! That is what will then eventually consume your physical body on this earth.
If you search the New Testament for deliverence, peace, joy all the fruit of the Spirit of God that comes with the righteousness, that is by faith in the finished work of Jesus the Christ, then you are saved from any form of wrath from God.
The day of the lord or the great and terrible day of the lord as spoken in Malachi is great for someone and terrible for someone! Its great for those in Christ, believers in good, protected by God, saved to the utermost and it is very bad for those who believe destruction, war, pain, suffering and wrath. They will receive what they believe. They have rejected their deliverence from wrath. They will bring upon themselves the destructive fires of their own judgment of the word of God. They will die in their own foolish assessment of the Truth! Peace to all in Christ! Destruction will be to all that accept destruction as the Truth of God! TKLets see what Jesus the Christ says about the end of the world. Lets see if it aligns with the man made doctrine of rapture where the christians are all removed from the earth for a while. All the parables and the interpretaions by Jesus starting a Matt 13:37 say the same thing about removal of the bad and the good remain.
Jesus is not refering to the end of the earth. He is explaining what happens in the mind and heart of a person when they hear the words of God or the Kingdom of God. Matt 13:38 The good seed sown is the children of the Kingdom and the tares are the children of the wicked one. The enemy that sowed them the devil and the harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are Angels. V40–As the tares are gathered and burned so shall it be at the end of this (old covenant) world. The Son of man shall send forth Angels and they will GATHER OUT OF HIS KINGDOM ALL THINGS THAT OFFEND AND THEY WHO DO INIQUITY AND SHALL CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE: THERE SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.—-V43—THEN SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN IN THE KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER! By the words of Jesus believers are not going anywhere. If you are getting ready to go you may be wrong.
All the other parables say the same that the evil will be removed from the earth and the children of the Kingdom remain. So when a person is quoting that two will be in the field and one will be taken, according to Christ himself, the evil one is removed and burned. There are many more scriptures that destroy the rapture doctrine but to save space I will write as needed. God bless all, TKQuote (katjo @ Sep. 20 2009,00:26) Tim, of course he is with believers now in spirit, the holy spirit lives in us, and you know he is there, BUT Jesus is returning in the flesh, the bible tells us that, and every eye will see him.
katjoIf you believe Jesus will return in the flesh, read my post on the ransom, besides check out what Paul said in 2 Cor. 5:16.
Georg
Ps, you find my post in “Scripture & Biblical Prophecy”.
If you believe Jesus will return(from somewhere) you can't possibly believe he is here now! Jesus said where two or three are gathered together in his name that he is in their midst. Jesus said that he and the Father would come and make their abode (Home)in us. If we are the temple of God then God is in us. If we are the church which is the body of Christ then Christ is in us. Every eye that is not blind will see Jesus in all. In all Truth of God get understanding which is the spiritual awareness of what is meant. Bless you, TK
Christ spirit does live in us that is the helper He sent until He returns again. Scripture says every eye will see Him coming in the clouds, and he is going to come down on the Mt. of Olives.
katjo: If Jesus comes physically to the Mt. of Olives how are the people on this side of the earth going to view this event? What do you mean every eye will see? His work for God is finished what more could he do? Should he die again? No! You cannot read spirit words and interpret them litterally. One that is born of spirit sees(understands) Jesus(the word,spirit of God) comming(manifesting) in the clouds(pneuma, air, spiritually). This word of God/Jesus/Spirit has gone gorth(is going forth, and will go forth)throughout the earth, to all who will accept him. This word of God will burn away the chaff and leave the wheat. This word of God will separate the goats from the sheep. The eyes of understanding will see! He who has ears(spiritual) to hear, let him hear! Bless you, TK
katjo and T K
Have you ever read what happened to Paul when Jesus appeared to him, Acts 9:17?
That is what would happen to all of us if Jesus would appear in all of his glory, and we were to look at him. Every eye will see him; have you ever said in a conversation, “oh, I see?” it is with the eye of understanding that we will see.Georg
Georg: You are right on! The entire New Testament is spiritually appraised. Thats being born again. Seeing is undestanding. Hearing with hearing ears is also understanding. When we see(understand) the truth of the Kingdom of God(Gods ruling words) within ourselves we will put away(overide) our regular self and speak the words of our Father to all people(his children) which will build them up in peace, love, kindness, mercy, joy etc.! We are all united in ONENESS, based on what we believe not what we have done. God first loved us with his word(Jesus) who cleansed us and made us whole(one). God bless your hearing ears and seeing eyes to all. TK
T K
Although I appreciate your reply, it appears to me as though you reading words into it that are not my words nor are they my thoughts.
The kingdom of God is more than “ruling words”, it is Jesus Christ sitting on his throne that will do the ruling. It is “his” teaching that will change us, if it does not, we will die again.
To become one with the Father and the Son, in spirit/mind, can only be achieved if we first listen to, and obey the teaching of the Son, the King of kings; so it does matter what you believe and what you do.
The Father and the Son loved us first, the son even died for us, even before we knew him, and only if we believe the teaching of the son and except his sacrifice for our sins, can he cleanse us. We have to work on that, it is not automatic.Georg
Bless you Georg: Clearly the New Testament and the words of Jesus the Christ(Luke17:21)– the Kingdom of God is within each human being. Spirit is not physical. Jesus being seated at the right hand of God in the Kingdom is a spiritual picture to behold. Spirit does not sit. Spirit does not have hands, and scepters, staff, gates,gold streets, houses or mansions. Those are pictures that we can understand in this physical realm. As you accept and consume and partake of the Spirit of God through the Spirit words of Jesus you become one in spirit with them. This is being born anew. Re-creating the thinking with the love of God. When we accept the love, peace, joy and all the fruit of the Spirit of God and plant that good seed in our brothers and sisters then that good seed produces that same fruit back into your life with abundance. God Bless you both, TK
Hi TK,
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth.
God does not rule where He has not been submitted to.
God invites all to be reborn into His Son by water and the Spirit.
Those who listen and obey the commands of His Son will be spared His wrath.Hey Nick: We agree! Thy Kingdom come(it came in the words of Jesus and is within each of us as we accept it) thy will (Gods will is peace, love, joy, etc. these are the fruit or by-product of the Spirit of God) be done on earth, as(soon as or when) it is done in Heaven/the mind/heart/thoughts.Gods will is love to be expressed through mankind. You have combined the new birth that Jesus refered to with Baptism, that is incorrect. Jesus said you must be born again(of Gods Spirit words) to see(understand) the Kingdom. Being born of water is the human entry into the earth realm. Any spirit or being that is in the earth realm any other way is a thief and a robber. Every human being is born of water.Thats the legal requirment to enter the Earth realm. Then you must re-create your thinking to spirit understanding to perceive the Kingdom of God. Its a contradiction of terms to say “obey comands” of Jesus, when Love never comnands and we were given free will to choose our way of life. Like you said God does not rule where he has not been submitted to. Bless you, TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 04 2009,22:41) Bless you Georg: Clearly the New Testament and the words of Jesus the Christ(Luke17:21)– the Kingdom of God is within each human being. Spirit is not physical. Jesus being seated at the right hand of God in the Kingdom is a spiritual picture to behold. Spirit does not sit. Spirit does not have hands, and scepters, staff, gates,gold streets, houses or mansions. Those are pictures that we can understand in this physical realm. As you accept and consume and partake of the Spirit of God through the Spirit words of Jesus you become one in spirit with them. This is being born anew. Re-creating the thinking with the love of God. When we accept the love, peace, joy and all the fruit of the Spirit of God and plant that good seed in our brothers and sisters then that good seed produces that same fruit back into your life with abundance. God Bless you both, TK
T KWhat book do you read all of that from?
Georg
Georg: To tell you the truth I have never read a book that said those things that way. I have done some study in energy theory and how energy operates. Einsteins theories include the fact that energy has always been. You cannot create more and it is never destroyed. It is moulded and changed into multiple forms but never ceases to exist. I perceive energy to be spirit. Spirit is not seen by human eyes. All energy vibrates at a signature frequency. Light is a very high frequency of vibration. Words are groups of energy that have certain frequencies.As you think on a subject you draw to yourself thought information of that frequency. You can feel words as you draw them to you. Destructive angy words feel bad, sad, hurt etc., and Love words of kindness, feel good. The frequencies cause the feelings. The more a person ponders a thought either positive of negative and releases it with intention to do good or bad the stronger the feelings are felt in the recipient.Your physical mood can be completely changed by the thoughts you decide to draw to yourself. Just sit there and think on the funniest thing you can remember in your life. If you do that hard enough and long enough you will begin to laugh as though it is happening right now. Jesus said his words were spirit and life.(John 6:63) Jesus knew the power of words in a person that understands this truth. He carefully never spoke directly at people by using metaphors,and parables and let the people figure the meaning for themselves.Jesus knew when sorrow filled the hearts of his friends when they heard the sad news of him going away. Jesus even said, if you say to the mountain, be thou cast into the sea, it shoud obey you. Paul was refering to Angels being around us when he said, are they not ministering spirits sent forth for those who inherit salvation? They operate on your words to see to it that what you say comes to pass in your life. They make no judgement as to good or bad. They are your servants. I will stop here from rambling any further. I have spent the last twenty years studying and praying for truth alone, with no outside influence. The first ten years of study I was still going to various churches. I have many writings I would be glad to send to anyone with interest for free. They cost nothing and they are easy to delete. Just request at
[email protected] and I will send one at a time. (some 4pages some10pages they vary) God Bless You, TKTim, I think you ought to get a Commentary bible that explains in detail verse by verse to you. They are scholars who have put a lot of study into the bible. You are going to see scripture a whole lot different. I have been looking for one to buy and right now I have my pastors, It is called “The Complete Bible Commentary” with contributions from Dobson, Feinberg, Hindson, Kroll, Wilmington and more.You can get these commentarys in any Bible Book Store.
katjo; Commentary Bibles, and amplified versions, and study bibles I have seen them all. Not one of them aligns scripture interpretation without contradiction in my opinion. Just the fact that the God of Love taught by Jesus my lord cannot possibly be the same as the so called gods of the old testament. Interpretations of the scriptures are also misleading, like the ten commandments. Love does not command anything. More like ten suggestions. Then the same so called god that suggested, thou shalt not kill….turns around and sends his preferred people(must be a respector of persons) into lands and villages and commands them to kill everyone and everything and steal their goods and their lands. To me this sounds like a thief and a robber. Would the God of Love that Jesus taught make deals with particular chosen people like the mafia would do? I will give you protection, you pay me a tenth of all spoils? Was not the old way corrupted and totally in sin? Were they not the lost sheep. Why do all the commentaries and study books follow the same line of thinking of all the churches, unchanged in 2000 years. If you follow Jesus only and what he says, and study what he did and make all of your source's of information based from him, the Truth of God, you will find many differences from the commonly accepted doctrines of man. I should not have entered my last writing because it was personally gathered from many books and study. Georg had ask a question and I took off. I prefer to keep all my information based totally in the Bible. Though Jesus did refer to word power and what is spoken many times. If you would read some of my material you would at least have a much broader opinion of the work. I don't think it is fair to write extensively on this venue.These short excerpts probably do more to confuse than inform, for that I am sorry. God Bless you, TK
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Oct. 07 2009,10:36) Georg: To tell you the truth I have never read a book that said those things that way. I have done some study in energy theory and how energy operates. Einsteins theories include the fact that energy has always been. You cannot create more and it is never destroyed. It is moulded and changed into multiple forms but never ceases to exist. I perceive energy to be spirit. Spirit is not seen by human eyes. All energy vibrates at a signature frequency. Light is a very high frequency of vibration. Words are groups of energy that have certain frequencies.As you think on a subject you draw to yourself thought information of that frequency. You can feel words as you draw them to you. Destructive angy words feel bad, sad, hurt etc., and Love words of kindness, feel good. The frequencies cause the feelings. The more a person ponders a thought either positive of negative and releases it with intention to do good or bad the stronger the feelings are felt in the recipient.Your physical mood can be completely changed by the thoughts you decide to draw to yourself. Just sit there and think on the funniest thing you can remember in your life. If you do that hard enough and long enough you will begin to laugh as though it is happening right now. Jesus said his words were spirit and life.(John 6:63) Jesus knew the power of words in a person that understands this truth. He carefully never spoke directly at people by using metaphors,and parables and let the people figure the meaning for themselves.Jesus knew when sorrow filled the hearts of his friends when they heard the sad news of him going away. Jesus even said, if you say to the mountain, be thou cast into the sea, it shoud obey you. Paul was refering to Angels being around us when he said, are they not ministering spirits sent forth for those who inherit salvation? They operate on your words to see to it that what you say comes to pass in your life. They make no judgement as to good or bad. They are your servants. I will stop here from rambling any further. I have spent the last twenty years studying and praying for truth alone, with no outside influence. The first ten years of study I was still going to various churches. I have many writings I would be glad to send to anyone with interest for free. They cost nothing and they are easy to delete. Just request at
[email protected] and I will send one at a time. (some 4pages some10pages they vary) God Bless You, TK
T KIt seems to me you have wasted your time studying the wrong book, to bad.
Georg
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