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Rapture?
Is it Post-Trib or Pre-Trib…or even some people believe in Mid-Trib?
Just trying to get some thoughts on this. Lets share our theories.
Hi Samuel,
Mid the seven year time of tribulation in my opinion as so much is said about the three and a half years.Samuel What does the Bible say about the tribulatiom. The first 3 1/2 years is Satan wrath. In that period we all will be presemt, but the last 3 1/2 years when Gods wrath comes we will be going to go into safty. Where that place is nobody knows. That is the way I understamd it.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Samuel,
read this, you may be surprisedTHE RAPTURE
A very promising and interesting claim, and almost every Sunday, some preacher on TV will say, we are living in the very end times and Christ will return soon to rapture his church up to heaven. Although most ministers agree and tell you, we are in the end time, few will give sound scriptural proof of that claim. It all sounds so easy, just come to church, confess Jesus is Lord, and you got it made. Shouldn’t some one ask the question, which church, or which denomination? Or does it matter? What happens after we get to heaven, will all churches then agree on the same doctrine? I have to admit, the idea of a rapture sounds good, after all, who wouldn’t want to go to heaven? And who would want to stay hear on earth when all the trouble starts? I believe this kind of preaching has many people coming to Church. But what exactly is the rapture? The definition is: to be carried away with great joy. And who will be raptured? Our Ministers tell us, all who believe in Jesus Christ and are alive when he returns. They will all be changed into spirit beings and go to heaven. But is that true? We should first ask the question; did God create Adam and Eve as physical human beings to change them into spirit beings later? The answer is no. God had already created all the angels, spirit beings; he wanted or needed because they all shouted for joy when he created the world.
Job 38:4 “Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth…”
v. 7 “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
How do we even imagine this rapture? Do we think as spirit beings we will suddenly love our neighbor whom we couldn’t stand on earth? Do we think in heaven we are no longer racist or bias? Will we be no longer greedy or jealous? If we can’t forgive on earth, will we forgive in heaven? Can you honestly say you learned to obey God? The bible tells us Jesus learned obedience through the things he suffered.
Heb. 5:8 “Though he were a son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered.”
When you read these next three scriptures, do you thing about what they imply?
Rev. 2:26 “And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I
give power over the nations.”
Ps. 50:5 “Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me
by sacrifice.”
Ps. 116:15 “Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.”
What in your mind is a saint? Do you have any idea, or even think about what the early Christians, saints, had to go through, and endure for their faith, first under the Romans, and then Antichrist? Do you think about how some Christians were impaled and set on fire as live torches for the emperor? Do you think about how some Christians were tied to a post in an arena, and Lions began to eat them alive? Have you ever seen the “tools of torture”, applied by Antichrist on them that would not worship him? And even today, in some parts of this world, Christians have to fear for their lives. Now, having put things a little in perspective, perhaps we can see things a little clearer as to who deserves to be in heaven, if we were going to go there.
Adam was not tested to become a spirit being, he was tested to see if he was worthy to receive eternal life, and so will all of us. To become a spirit being is the reward for obedience to God even unto death.
Rev. 3:21 “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”
There are three main scriptures that have people believe in a rapture.
One;
1 Cor. 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.”Sleeping is done in the grave, Paul is saying, not all saints will be dead in their graves when Christ returns, and that they too would have to be changed, but he says “shall be” changed not will be, meaning their change will come sometime later, and when it comes it will be instantly.
Two;
v. 52 “In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
The last, or the seventh trumpet will announce Christ’s return. The dead saints will only hear this trumpet sound. No other living human will even know what is taking place. Paul says the dead are raised incorruptible, meaning raised with a spirit body; and again referring to “we”, the living saints, shall be changed, future.
Three;
1 Thes. 4:17 “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”I believe this verse is the most confusing of the three, because what it really says is read right over. “We, which are alive and remain”; we will remain in this human flesh body until our death, Paul says, and then shall we be changed. No living human being will be snatched away from whatever he may be doing. No Airplane is going to fall from the sky because the pilot disappeared. Listen what Paul is saying,
1 Cor. 15:36 “Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.”
The saints are the seed, they cannot be quickened, resurrected, brought back to life, unless they are sowed first, buried; in other words; they have to die first. This is what Jesus is talking about in,
Rev. 14:13 “And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth; Yea, saith the Spirit that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”
Blessed are the dead, dead to this world but alive in Christ.
Col. 3:3 “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God”.That die from that point on; that point is the return of Christ, because they live and work for the kingdom of Christ; they will rest from all their labors at death, but their works will follow them. The work for the Kingdom of God does not stop with death. Jesus said,
John 5:17 “… My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.”
Daniel even gives us the time for this event;
Dan. 12:12“Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.”
That is 1335 days = years. Waiting is done in the grave, coming to the end of those days’ means, being alive. Rapture is not the right word for this event because nobody is going to disappear with his cloth left behind. As each individual saint dies, from that point on, he will instantly be changed into a spirit being, the body will be left behind and no human being will know what took place. Now Daniel said that this event, Rev. 14:13, would start taking place after the 1335 days, years. “These days” started with the reign of Antichrist, 565 A.D., that meant that these days of waiting ended in A.D 1900 and the time when saints die and are instantly changed started. We should also realize from this that not every body would become a spirit being.
Mat. 22:14“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Luke 20:35 “But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, (spirit world) and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.”Jesus is referring to the first resurrection only.
Our human existence is relative very short, compared to angels; they were created to live for all eternity. That does not mean however they are sexless. We read in fact that some of them did marry woman and had children, Gen. 6:2 and 4. Without our ability to procreate, our species would have died out long ago. But this is how God had planed it for us. Procreation is for our nature, flesh nature, only. Now let me show you another scripture that sheds more light on this subje
ct; that has either been overlooked or ignored;
1 Thes. 4:16 “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first.”This should make it clear that the saints are not going up, but instead Christ is coming down to this earth, for at least two reasons. One, this is where the saints are waiting in their graves. Two, this is where Christ will reign with the saints for a thousand years;
Rev. 5:10 “And hast made us unto our God kings and priest; and we shall reign on the earth.”Also, in 1 Thes. 4:17 we read that those, which are alive and remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Why “clouds”? Clouds hide things, for example,
Acts 1:9 “And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up;
and a cloud received him out of their sight.”“To meet the Lord in the air”, why does that make us assume it means way up there. Well, clouds are way up there in the air. The meaning is the same, you can’t see what is behind a cloud and you can’t see air. Jesus tried to explain that to Nicodemus.
John 3:6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
v. 8 “The wind bloweth were it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst
not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth; so is every one that is born of the Spirit.”
Born of the spirit, meaning, resurrected with a spirit body. We humans are born of the flesh, we can’t see the wind, we can’t see the air and we can’t see a spirit being, because they are like the air. The meaning of, meeting Christ in the air is, meeting him in the spirit world. It does not mean we will all be zoomed up. We should also understand that no human being will ever see Jesus with their eyes, and hear is why;
Rev.
1:16 “And he had in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth went a sharp
twoedged sword; and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.”
When we read that every eye will see him, we should know what is meant by this is with the eye of understanding. In a conversation have you ever said, Oh I see? Jesus even told us,
John 14:19 “Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more…”What do we think he meant? We, who will live on this earth in our human flesh body, are the world. We all know what would happen if we were to look at the sun on a bright sunny day? Paul saw Jesus for just a moment, and it blinded him.
Acts 9:17 “And Anani’as went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee
in the way as thou cameth, has sent me, that thou mighteth receive thy sight, and
be filled with the Holy Gost.”
As far as the changing of the saints is concerned, the bible does not say how long this event will go on, but we can be sure of this; the door to the wedding feast will not be shut until the last invited guest has arrived.
Rev. 3:7 “… these things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that has the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth.”
No, we won’t see Christ returning or sitting on his throne, but we will see the effects of his reign, especially when Satan is put away.
Rev. 20:2 “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years.”
It is during this thousand-year reign, that all of us will learn how to love God and how to love our neighbor, the reward for that will be eternal life.
And who would want to challenge those that had to endure the reign of torture and even death of Antichrist, for the honor to sit with Christ in his throne?
Could anyone be so vain and say, eternal life is not good enough?IM4Truth
“Be quick to hear; slow to speak.”
The Lord's Return As The “Last Day” Of This Age.
Matt 24:31 = Matt 24:13 […the end…] + Daniel 12:12's […1335th day…]Matt 24:31 = “the last day” of John 6:40, 44, 54
At the last day, is the resurrection from the dead: 1 Th 4:16 + Philipp 3:11.What else could follow the last day of this age, except the first day of the next age? Or maybe some kind of “twilight” in-between time?…
If not, after the last[/] day of this age, you have the first[/] day of the age of Kingdom of God in power over the earth with Jesus the King ruling (1,000-year reign Rev 20:6,7).
That His Millenial reign begins with the 7th trumpet is made plain in Rev 11:15-18:
“Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.”
“And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
wrath upon ungodly men.” Rev 11:18The first 6 trumpets are not the wrath of God; the 7th has the bowls of the wrath of God Rev 15:1, 5-7. And it is from this wrath that we are saved Rom 5:9 – if we are not stubborn and unrepentant – Rom 2:5. If we are stubborn and unrepentant, we will “taste of death” Matt 16:28 when the Lord returns; yet, if our foundation remains, we will be saved, but only “so as through fire” 1 Cor 3:15 : the same “brightness of His coming” 2 Th 2:8 that destroys the “lawless one”, will destroy any lawlessness in His “overcomers” 1 John 5:5; Rev 2:11.
Not all resurrected believers will go to be with Jesus for ever:
Daniel 12:2+Matt 16:28+Matt 25:1-13(The virgins falling asleep is when they are killed; their waking up refers to the resurrection from the dead.)+Matt 25:41.The people over whom Jesus and the overcoming saints will rule Luke 19:17 are the remnants of the first 3 human governments of the earth Daniel 7:11,12+Rev 19:20.
And why are they spared? Maybe because they did not go along with the beast: in the Book of Daniel, some do “escape from his hands” 11:41. Also, the antichrist has many problems with other world powers at that time, opposing him continually: Daniel 11:25-30, 39-44.
Review of some of the Son of Perdition/Antichrist's Enemies:
King of the South 11:25, 29, 40
Ships of the Western Coastlands 11:30
the mightiest fortresses 11:39
many countries 11:40
The East and the North 11:44
And – his biggest mistake – like a fool, he fights with God.Reading Revelation alone, you wouldn't know that, but if you keep reading, you'll see the true Light John 8:30-32.
Just because some people escape, this is not to say it is a lax time; there will be terrible deception, war, plagues, accusation, offense, terror, and destruction in the earth. (Ps 91)
God, save me from that and let me stand by Your grace, forgive my foolishness… I am a foolish disgrace! You know my foolishness, God!!!Yes, I to am very foolish is seems.
I find myself always doing what I should'nt.
I pray that I can master myself, that GOD will have grace and mercy on me rather than Judgement and Death.
I know that I am not what I should be. I keep trying to change that.
One of my biggest problems is my own self. I like to think that I can do things that I know that I can't.
I like to think that I know things that I know that I don't.
And I FEAR that I will not be good enough when the time comes.
I know that I should not live in FEAR, But I do FEAR GOD.
My eyes have been opened to quite a few things …I feel. There are a lot of things that I'm probably still wrong about.
But The End times are pretty near I do feel. Its not like I think that they are just because of something that happened. Its like I can feel it in my soul.
Just about everyone at some point or another has heard some form of the story of the bible at some point.
They all know that the bible says that there will be and end to all of this.
Yet…if you take a look at the world they seem to go on as if nothing is ever going to happen. Its like that have heard it and know it but don't really believe it.
It's real …its really going to happen. Then what?
And I believe that some things are going to happen not quite the way a lot of people think they are going to happen.
So…what do you do? Who will listen?
Hardly anyone wants to listen.
All people want to do is tell.
I'm guilty of it myself.
But the fact remains that the time IS coming where we will LISTEN…every last one of us.
I just would rather that we were all willing to listen …rather that forced to listen. Seems like things would work out so much better for us if that were the case.
GOD Bless
I'm leaning towards what most people would call “Mid-Trib” By the way.
Because the Rapture the way I read the bible tells me that it is goig to be at the sound of the LAST trumpet.
However I think the real TRIB is going to be after the sounding of that LAST trumpet…Thats when the wrath is going to really be poured out.Hi Samuel,
Yes I think there is a tribulation that is divded into the woes and the wrath of God.
We are not to feel the wrath of God.Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;Romans 9:22
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.Hi Nick, you see what happens when you answer without reading what people are saying?
I have already done what you suggest, read my article ” the Rapture”, I almost said, again.
This time don't give me three pages of scriptures, tell me exactly what you are disagreeing with, and why.Georg
Hi Georg,
I am not sure how many would share this opinion with you.“Now Daniel said that this event, Rev. 14:13, would start taking place after the 1335 days, years. “These days” started with the reign of Antichrist, 565 A.D., that meant that these days of waiting ended in A.D 1900 and the time when saints die and are instantly changed started.”
Hi Georg,
You distinguish SHALL BE from WILL BE“One;
1 Cor. 15:51 “Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.”Sleeping is done in the grave, Paul is saying, not all saints will be dead in their graves when Christ returns, and that they too would have to be changed, but he says “shall be” changed not will be, meaning their change will come sometime later, and when it comes it will be instantly. “
1Cor15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
But there is no greek word in the text for SHALL BE.
It is an english addition for clarity.Hi Georg,
You say
“The last, or the seventh trumpet will announce Christ’s return. The dead saints will only hear this trumpet sound. No other living human will even know what is taking place. Paul says the dead are raised incorruptible, meaning raised with a spirit body; and again referring to “we”, the living saints, shall be changed, future. “There is no difference between the living and the dead in Christ. All in Christ are alive yet though some sleep, alive in the Spirit of God. Their status as saints comes from this choice of God and this blessing not from any works nor even martyrdom. Death for us is to be baptised into Christ's death.[Rom6]
Jn5[the living]
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[those who sleep]
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.The dead however will be raised first.[1Cor15]
Hi Georg,
You say
“1 Cor. 15:36 “Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.”
The saints are the seed, they cannot be quickened, resurrected, brought back to life, unless they are sowed first, buried; in other words; they have to die first. “This is our death
Rom6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Hi Georg,
You say
“To meet the Lord in the air”, why does that make us assume it means way up there. Well, clouds are way up there in the air. The meaning is the same, you can’t see what is behind a cloud and you can’t see air. Jesus tried to explain that to Nicodemus.”1Thess4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air[109]: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Number 109
Transliteration:
aer {ah-ayr'}
Word Origin:
from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow)
TDNT:
1:165,25
Part of Speech:
noun masculine
Usage in the KJV:
air 7Total: 7
Definition:
the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air
the atmospheric regionSeems very plain and not symbolic.
Hi Georg,
You say
“No, we won’t see Christ returning or sitting on his throne, but we will see the effects of his reign, especially when Satan is put away. “Psalm 132:11
The LORD has sworn to DavidA truth from which He will not turn back:” Of the fruit of your body I will set upon your throne.Isaiah 9:7
There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,On the throne of David and over his kingdom,To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousnessFrom then on and forevermore The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.Luke 1:32
“He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;We shall see with new heavenly eyes the return of the King to rule from the throne of David.
There is no suggestion that those natural men of the nations living then will not see him either.Acts1
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Hi Nick
I am no scholar either, but if it was added for clarity, it was a good one.
We have been taught by our ministers for so long, there will be a rapture, that no one dares to challenge their validity. Every one hopes that it is true.
Do you really think, that all the people that go to church, and just because they confess Jesus is Lord, they will all go to heaven? Now before you jump the gun, I did not say, will not be saved, they will; but they will not go to heaven.
To understand the resurrection correctly you have to start with 1Cor. 15:36. Paul says, to live again you first have to die, but those saints that die after the first resurrection has taken place, will have to spend no time in the grave, their change will come instantly.Georg
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