Rapture

[NickHassan]

Hi,
As t8 as suggested it would be a good idea to learn more about this event. Of course the word 'Rapture' does not appear in scripture but it is applied to an event that is clearly shown in the New Testament.
eg 1 Cor 15.52f
1 Thess 4.13f
Jn 11.25-6
Who can add?

[Proclaimer]

Good one.

Yes I would like to repeat what I said in another post.

If we look at Revelation we see 7 seals. Then we see 7 bowls. It seems that the bowls are for wrath of which God's children are not destined. But God's children do go though tribulations.

So it is possible from what I understand that we will go through the Tribulation, but surely we would be spared from the wrath of God.

The rapture has always puzzled me though. It seems that life looks normal and whammo, certain people are taken. Like an abduction only that it is the chosen being taken up to be with the Lord.

[NickHassan]

Hi ,
It is worth reading Ps 91 as that may be our portion. Also Is 26.20-21.

We may get some warning as the “dead in Christ will rise first” [1Thess 4.16]and that event did not go unnoticed when Jesus died and many arose from their graves.[Mt 27.52]

[Proclaimer]

Some clues…

Revelation 10:7
but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

So is the mystery of God complete at the seventh trumpet (last)?

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality

Is this the same mystery? These mysteries are both at the last trumpet. During the 7th trumpet, (in scriptural chronological order)  there are the bowls or vials of God's wrath. I personally do not believe that we are destined for wrath but that we do go through tribulations.

Revelation 2:10
'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Acts 14:22
strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, “Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.”

Romans 5:3
And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;

Hebrews 10:33
partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.  

Revelation 16:1
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth.

Revelation 15
1 I saw in heaven another great and marvellous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues— last, because with them God's wrath is completed.
2 And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire and, standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name. They held harps given them by God
3 and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

So is the Tribulation a time of wrath from God or a trial for the Jews and the Believers by the AntiChrist and the Dragon? Are the bowls of the wrath of God part of the Tribulation at all? Or are they simply the wrath of God?

If saints are saved and taken for overcoming the Beast, then is that the rapture or is the rapture event before that? E.g. first fruits and then others later?

Perhaps like Moses and the Jews, God removed them from Egypt after the Egyptians recieved the plagues?

Noah for example saw the flood but was safe in the ark. Jesus is a type of ark to us. But Lot was told to leave (removed) before God's wrath was poured out. So are we lead away from where the wrath of God is, or are we taken out of the earth altogether before the wrath?

Just food for thought that is all. I look forward to well thought out posts and pearls of wisdom from that others who might share on this subject.

[NickHassan]

Hi t8,
Yes I believe the first two scriptures line up. I have read in Daniel that there are 7 years of tribulation. Now each year the Jews celebrate the feast of trumpets. They also expect the messiah to appear on the feast of trumpets.Could it be that the 7 trumpets are the 7 feasts of trumpets-one per year?
But many places, such as Daniel, also speak of a 3 and a half year period. Could this be when the Rapture occurs after the woes and before the wrath?
Ther are some saved through surviving the tribulation period without accepting the mark. Surely it is unlikely that those saved by the usual means would not still be alongside those saved through this other means?

That is why I have favoured a mid trib rapture but would value all others insights.

[liljon]

I beleieve it will be after tribulation
Mt 24/Mark 13

[bic]

I believe you are on the right track, t8. The tribulation, which God's children will have to endure is Satan's persecution of the saints. God's bowl judgments follow the last trump and it is wicked men that will suffer these judgments from God. There is possibly some overlap between Satan's persecution of Christians and God's judgments of sinners. It's clear however that when the seventh trumpet blows, a lot is going to happen in a very brief time: the third woe, consisting of the seven last plagues (vial or bowl judgments of God), the return of Jesus Christ (with drawn sword), the resurrection of the just, the judgment of the dead, the wrath of God, the destruction of the wicked, the time of Jacob's trouble, and the Battle of Armageddon. Only after all of this will Satan be bound and Christ's millenial reign begin.

The opening of the seven seals as recorded in Revelation 6 and 8 is also revealed in the Olivet prophecy of Jesus in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. When asked about His return and the time of the end, Jesus laid out the sequence of events that would precede His return and they are symbolized in John's vision in Revelation.

For example, let's look at the opening of the first seal in Revelation and compare it to Jesus' revelation in Matthew 24:

Revelation 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

In Revelation 19:11, Jesus is depicted as returning on a white horse. The rider and white horse pictured in Revelation 6:2 seems to be very similar but with subtle differences. This horse and rider, in fact, represents the false Christianity that is even now already in place.

As you continue along in succession to the opening of each seal, you will see that the account in Matthew 24 follows along in the same order.

Although Revelation is predominately in chronological order, there are a few asides interspersed within these ordered chapters. This has caused many (along with other reasons) to reject Revelation and/or reduce it to allegorical status. While, indeed, there are many allegorical representations within Revelation, the whole of it is predominately literal. If most of it seems to be allegories, it is only because John was describing actual 20-something century objects (i.e., helicopters) with 1st century terminology.

An example of a literal description that has been reduced to a spiritual metaphor is the city-ship New Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,…
…21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
21:16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
21:17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

What's amazing is that there is absolutely no reason to spiritualize away this description even though it's literal realization is absolutely mind-boggling. A vessel that measures approximately 1,400 miles in each direction with walls 200 feet thick, in our advanced age, should not seem so incredulous to us. Isn't this what Jesus meant when He said:

John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.  

All of scripture fits together so nicely if one can just believe what it is written.

I'm sure that many will scoff at this but will they provide scripture that discounts it? Personally, it makes more sense than Jesus' literal feet alighting upon Mount Olives:

Zechariah Zec. 14:3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle.
Zec. 14:4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

See how revelation and prophecy fit so perfectly together in God's word?

Praise God and glory to our Savior, Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous]

bic,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]
Bic,
I agree with much of what you say and our hermanuetics align, at least with regard to escatology.

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Although Revelation is predominately in chronological order, there are a few asides interspersed within these ordered chapters.

I agree

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Revelation, the whole of it is predominately literal. If most of it seems to be allegories, it is only because John was describing actual 20-something century objects (i.e., helicopters) with 1st century terminology.

I agree

Quote

All of scripture fits together so nicely if one can just believe what it is written.

Again, I agree.

Quote

Personally, it makes more sense than Jesus' literal feet alighting upon Mount Olives:

If by this you mean that you don't think Zech 14:4 should be taken literally, then I strongly disagree. Acts 1 bears this out:

Acts 1
9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.
11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”
12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city.

I can see no reason not to take this prophecy literally.

[NickHassan]

You lost me MM,
What is different from Jesus being lifted up to heaven in Acts 1 and Jesus coming back down from heaven in Zech 14? Is it the different clothes or the different mission?

[bic]

MM: I do think Zechariah can be taken literally and there is no doubt that His feet will stand upon Mount Olives and that He will return in like manner as He left. However, I think that there are many 'mysteries' (or unrevealed details) than can be extrapolated from what is given in text.

For example, in your posted verses, a “cloud hid Him from them”. Without further reference, what is on the other side of those clouds remains a mystery. However, if there are other verses which shed more light on the significance of clouds or perhaps reveal what's within or behind those clouds, we might be able to determine this 'hidden' information. If we look later in Acts, on the road to Damascus, Saul has an 'other-worldly' experience: a light shines down from heaven and a voice claiming to be Jesus booms out.

In Saul's day, this would have been practically unexplainable. Yet, today this could be easily explained. At any rate, this begs the question: was Jesus still on the earth and where was He staying? Is science just the understanding of God and all His creations? Can everything which appears to be miraculous within scripture actually have scientific basis? We know that the resurrected Jesus walked through walls and appeared and disappeared at will. Isn't this just scientific fact as yet unknown to man? I believe so. Nothing is impossible and there is nothing new under the sun.

So, did Star Trek get it right? Was Jesus 'beamed up' to a waiting ship? The same ship that shined the light on Saul? While most Christians cringe at the idea that God might actually use machines, I don't. When I read about what Ezekiel saw, I see a gyroscopic machine of some sort. When I read Exodus, I see machines. Even Peter saw something, while in a trance, descending from heaven, which is described as a vessel even though it sounds more like a parachute or perhaps a hot-air balloon.

Does God need a space ship? Absolutely not! Does God drive a ship? I doubt it very seriously. Did He perhaps design creatures that could use these ships to advance the kingdom? I think so. Didn't He create mankind who is dependent on air and water and light and food and yet give us the wisdom to create (form and shape the elements of our world) things that would have been beyond belief just a few short years ago?

So, while Jesus may indeed have risen up into the air as recorded in Acts, we do not know what happened beyond the clouds…we can only speculate.

My point was that when you put together the words of Zechariah and Micah and Revelation (and others), a picture begins to emerge. A ship 1,400 miles in each direction landing (its feet) on top of the mountains of Israel could very well cause the largest earthquake to ever hit the earth and cause Mount Olive to split in two. I can't imagine a 5' 9″ (just an educated guess) Jesus' feet doing the same (though I'm not saying that it couldn't happen…hey, we're talking about God here, creator of the universe!).

With so much reading between the lines, there is going to have to be a certain amount of folly. With it being me doing the talking (or wondering), exponentially increase that folly…so don't be too hard on me.

[Cubes]

Quote (liljon @ Feb. 18 2005,21:52)

I beleieve it will be after tribulation Mt 24/Mark 13

I agree, liljon.

Some great insights shared by all:

To t8:   A good point about Noah seeing the flood from a safe place.  Lot could have seen the destruction of Sodom too but he and his family were forbidden to do so.  They escaped in haste.  

Looks like the rapture happens in the midst or after.  I believe that God would preserve the elect so that they are unharmed.

To  Nick:  I believe a special mention is made of those who go through the tribulation, they get to serve God personally in his temple (Rev 7:9-17); And then Rev 15:1-3 speak of “those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass having harps of God.  And they sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb.”

Question is, how many Tribulations are there?  And where would everybody else be?

Also, I just got an idea/question from this reading regarding Matt 24:32-35:  Do you suppose that Jesus is saying:  THIS generation, as in, the generation that experiences the Abomination of Desolation spoken of by Daniel, and the great Tribulation would be the generation that he returns for?  He goes on to speak of the fig tree, and as if to emphasize what he has said, he says, “heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.”

So then, we are to watch and pray, and be ready.  He is coming soon when he is least expected.

[NickHassan]

Hi cubes,
The fig tree represents Israel so many people see the return of Israel as a nation in 1948 as being referred to here.
It is difficult to understand how the return of Jesus could be a surprise to the world if so many dramatic things happen. I can't see normal function of life being possible anyway. Yet as with the time of Noah we are told life carried on as normal till the flood.

[Anonymous]

He he. I like your style. Nothing wrong with self-confessed, outrageous conjecture in my book!

[Anonymous]

[quoteWith so much reading between the lines, there is going to have to be a certain amount of folly. With it being me doing the talking (or wondering), exponentially increase that folly…so don't be too hard on me.[/quote]
He he. I like your style. Nothing wrong with self-confessed, outrageous conjecture in my book!

[Anonymous]

Dang!….3rd time lucky….

Quote

With so much reading between the lines, there is going to have to be a certain amount of folly. With it being me doing the talking (or wondering), exponentially increase that folly…so don't be too hard on me.

He he. I like your style. Nothing wrong with self-confessed, outrageous conjecture in my book!

[Anonymous]

Quote (bic @ Feb. 23 2005,02:37)

MM: I do think Zechariah can be taken literally and there is no doubt that His feet will stand upon Mount Olives and that He will return in like manner as He left. However, I think that there are many 'mysteries' (or unrevealed details) than can be extrapolated from what is given in text. For example, in your posted verses, a “cloud hid Him from them”.  Without further reference, what is on the other side of those clouds remains a mystery. However, if there are other verses which shed more light on the significance of clouds or perhaps reveal what's within or behind those clouds, we might be able to determine this 'hidden' information. If we look later in Acts, on the road to Damascus, Saul has an 'other-worldly' experience: a light shines down from heaven and a voice claiming to be Jesus booms out. In Saul's day, this would have been practically unexplainable. Yet, today this could be easily explained. At any rate, this begs the question: was Jesus still on the earth and where was He staying? Is science just the understanding of God and all His creations? Can everything which appears to be miraculous within scripture actually have scientific basis? We know that the resurrected Jesus walked through walls and appeared and disappeared at will. Isn't this just scientific fact as yet unknown to man? I believe so. Nothing is impossible and there is nothing new under the sun. So, did Star Trek get it right? Was Jesus 'beamed up' to a waiting ship? The same ship that shined the light on Saul? While most Christians cringe at the idea that God might actually use machines, I don't. When I read about what Ezekiel saw, I see a gyroscopic machine of some sort. When I read Exodus, I see machines. Even Peter saw something, while in a trance, descending from heaven, which is described as a vessel even though it sounds more like a parachute or perhaps a hot-air balloon. Does God need a space ship? Absolutely not! Does God drive a ship? I doubt it very seriously. Did He perhaps design creatures that could use these ships to advance the kingdom? I think so. Didn't He create mankind who is dependent on air and water and light and food and yet give us the wisdom to create (form and shape the elements of our world) things that would have been beyond belief just a few short years ago? So, while Jesus may indeed have risen up into the air as recorded in Acts, we do not know what happened beyond the clouds…we can only speculate. My point was that when you put together the words of Zechariah and Micah and Revelation (and others), a picture begins to emerge. A ship 1,400 miles in each direction landing (its feet) on top of the mountains of Israel could very well cause the largest earthquake to ever hit the earth and cause Mount Olive to split in two. I can't imagine a 5' 9″ (just an educated guess) Jesus' feet doing the same (though I'm not saying that it couldn't happen…hey, we're talking about God here, creator of the universe!). With so much reading between the lines, there is going to have to be a certain amount of folly. With it being me doing the talking (or wondering), exponentially increase that folly…so don't be too hard on me.

This really is a great post, what an imagination you have! I will be replying to this one too (and yours cubes, I havent forgotten) but I promised my better half I would spend some time with her tonight so i'll try posting tomorrow.

[bic]

Quote

It is difficult to understand how the return of Jesus could be a surprise to the world if so many dramatic things happen.

3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
3:14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

God's children willl be watching and waiting but the majority of the world will have long quit looking for His return. From this description, it will happen very fast and very violently. He'll not only shake the earth, but the heavens too.

[NickHassan]

Hi bic,
Those of the world will have no inkling about what is happening. To even be aware of it at all suggests to me that the mockers are members of the church, bridesmaids who run out of oil and who fall to sleep?

[Anonymous]

bic,Feb. wrote:

[/quote]
Hi Bic, great post mate!

Quote

Without further reference, what is on the other side of those clouds remains a mystery. However, if there are other verses which shed more light on the significance of clouds or perhaps reveal what's within or behind those clouds, we might be able to determine this 'hidden' information.

I would have thought the cloud was obscuring the Father welcoming His Son home. Certainly there are a plethora of scriptures where clouds are used for this purpose (there is a herbraic name for the cloud I believe, shechina glory?), e.g. Ex 13:21,14:24,16:10, 19:9, 20:21, Mat 17:5, Mk 9:7…. Actually just look up cloud in your concordance and you will see a strong association between the earthly visitations of God and clouds.

Quote

If we look later in Acts, on the road to Damascus, Saul has an 'other-worldly' experience: a light shines down from heaven and a voice claiming to be Jesus booms out. In Saul's day, this would have been practically unexplainable. Yet, today this could be easily explained. At any rate, this begs the question: was Jesus still on the earth and where was He staying?

Well this was post-ascention so I would have thought He was in heaven. However, like the Father I believe He can supernaturally interact with His creation if He choses to do so. Whether He physically leaves the seat at the athers right hand and comes to earth or opens a portal to our dimension(s) from His seat, who could say? Actually the Acts 22 passage is remeniscient of the OT and NT appearances of the Father addressing whomever from above (intensely bright light, falling to the ground etc.)

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Is science just the understanding of God and all His creations? Well the study of His creation certainly, although biology is predominantly a secular discipline and rejects the spiritual explanation automatically. Personally I don't know how a secular biologist can sleep at night now that we know what we do about DNA (it's a specifically-complex, digital code!). I don't think our crude scientific protocols could adequately examine an infinite, universe-creating being anyway. Can everything which appears to be miraculous within scripture actually have scientific basis? We know that the resurrected Jesus walked through walls and appeared and disappeared at will. Isn't this just scientific fact as yet unknown to man? I believe so. Nothing is impossible and there is nothing new under the sun.

Well since God operates outside of time itself, all bets are off in terms of the supernatural. Jesus appeared not to be confined to the 4 dimentions we are restricted to, and this should not surprise us. Man has a lot to learn and it may very well take eternity for God to teach us real science

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So, did Star Trek get it right? Was Jesus 'beamed up' to a waiting ship? The same ship that shined the light on Saul?

ship? I don't get you.

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While most Christians cringe at the idea that God might actually use machines, I don't. When I read about what Ezekiel saw, I see a gyroscopic machine of some sort. When I read Exodus, I see machines.

really?, i'm intrigued, show me the verses so I can look them up. I can't think of any machines described in exodus.

Quote

Even Peter saw something, while in a trance, descending from heaven, which is described as a vessel even though it sounds more like a parachute or perhaps a hot-air balloon.

Do you mean the Acts 10 vision?:

10But he became hungry and was desiring to eat; but while they were making preparations, he fell into a trance; 11and he saw the sky opened up, and an object like a great sheet coming down, lowered by four corners to the ground,

I can't see a vessel here but perhaps its rendered that way in another Bible version. I would have thought this was a sheet-like object with corners, but maybe you have more information or are referencing another verse?

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Does God need a space ship? Absolutely not! Does God drive a ship? I doubt it very seriously.

me too! but you never know???

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Did He perhaps design creatures that could use these ships to advance the kingdom? I think so. Didn't He create mankind who is dependent on air and water and light and food and yet give us the wisdom to create (form and shape the elements of our world) things that would have been beyond belief just a few short years ago?

You've lost me here. Ships?

Quote

My point was that when you put together the words of Zechariah and Micah and Revelation (and others), a picture begins to emerge. A ship 1,400 miles in each direction landing (its feet) on top of the mountains of Israel could very well cause the largest earthquake to ever hit the earth and cause Mount Olive to split in two.

What ship are you referring to?? Do you mean the city of New Jerusalum in Rev 21?

Revelation 21
2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband…..
…15The angel who talked with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city, its gates and its walls. 16The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide. He measured the city with the rod and found it to be 12,000 stadia[a]in length, and as wide and high as it is long. 17He measured its wall and it was 144 cubits thick, by man's measurement.

If that is the case then im perplexed. Since you believe Rev to be generally sequential and Jesus second coming occurs in Rev 19, why is it that you link two seperate events described two chapters apart as occurring concurrently? I think Rev 19:11-21 and Zech 14 are two descriptions of the same event. And the city will come down after the millenium.
Rev 21:22, 23 reveal that both the Father and Son will inhhabit the new earth, this only happans after millenial reign of Jesus Christ, I think scripture is quite clear about that. So this ship doesn't feature for a mere 1000+ yrs after the second coming. Thats my take on it anyway, what do you think?

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I can't imagine a 5' 9″ (just an educated guess) Jesus' feet doing the same (though I'm not saying that it couldn't happen…hey, we're talking about God here, creator of the universe!).

Lets look at the passage:
Zech 14
4In that day His feet will (F)stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be (G)split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

To me this is simply a display of Jesus' awesome power and authority over all creation. Also I don't believe that Jesus was straddling what sounds like a massive chasm between the tw sides of the Mt of Olives. So He could be any size and it wouldn't matter really, would it?

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With so much reading between the lines, there is going to have to be a certain amount of folly. With it being me doing the talking (or wondering), exponentially increase that folly…so don't be too hard on me.

He he, only trinitarians get a hard time here Bic
Actually I think God loves it when we try to read between the lines of scripture:

Hosea 6 KJV
6For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Peace

[NickHassan]

Hi MM,
Rev 21  says that there will be a new heaven and earth, God's temple on earth and
“The tabernacle of God is among men and He will dwell among them..”

But the same was said of the OT jews. God dwelled among them .

Ex 25.8,Ex 29.45-6, Num 5.3,35.34, etc etc.

Has it really changed? Why have a new heaven if God does not use it?

Of course it will be different in that there will be no veil between the holy of Holies and the Holy place and all will be priests and able to approach the presence of the Father daily and not just one priest once a year.

[Author]

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