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Quote You asked DK about baptism relating it to faithfulness to the JW way. No I didn't NICK. I asked him if he was a baptized Witness.
There's some fascinating psychological interplay in this thread. I'm looking forward to seeing how it's going to play out….
I personally think the obvious red flag associated with the The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. is the false prophecies. After they described themselves in explicit terms as “God's prophets”:
“So does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come? These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet?…This “prophet” was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian Witnesses…Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a ‘prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it.” The Watchtower, 4/1/72, p. 197.
….they quickly set about invalidating this claim through the false biblical predictions they made over and over and over again (for example, refer: http://www.afcministry.com/AFC_WT%20Prophecies%20Exposed.htm).
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? 22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.The self administered ascription of the office of “God's prophet” and the subsequent false prophecies have exposed the Watchtower for what it is. A true prophet of God doesn't make these kind of mistakes. With such a dubious history, why would anyone want any part in this organisation?
Quote (david @ May 31 2008,12:44) Quote You asked DK about baptism relating it to faithfulness to the JW way. No I didn't NICK. I asked him if he was a baptized Witness.
Hi david,
What is a baptised witness?
A Christian?We are not bapstised witnesses because we abhor their false ways.
Quote (dirtyknections @ May 31 2008,00:33) And you are right, in all honesty…independent thinking and thoughts are OK while you are studying…but it is strongly discouraged and counseled against once you join… more emphasis is put on supressing “doubts”…and trusting is Jehovahs “faithful and discreet slave”…and “waiting on Jehovah to answer your doubts (questions)”…but the problem is were are told to look for the answers to our doubts and questions thru the “faithful and discreet slave”..aka the WT or one if its publications..
It is rare that you will get an offer from someone to do intense and focused BIBLE research..using alternative sources to help you come to your OWN conclusion about what the scriptures say….you will be counseled to stick to “food” prepared by the “slave”
Sorry David…thats the truth..and YOU KNOW IT…
Hi David,
I would be interested to hear some comments from you with regard to these assertions. It is commonly known that the organisation to which you belong discourages and suppresses independant thought, especially if it challenges WT dogma. Many ex-JW testimonies attest to this. So it appears that you cannot be a JW and a free thinker at the same time. The problem is the WT have shown themselves on many occasions to be errant in their understanding of the scriptures (see above post). Does this concern you David? It would concern me.Quote (david @ May 31 2008,12:28) Quote A Christians job is not to convert…but to declare 94,
I'm wondering what you believe Jesus meant when he said: “Go therefore and MAKE DISCIPLES….” (Mat 28:19,20)Of course, we declare the good news, we “preach” it, but more is involved. Teaching is involved.
MATTHEW 28:19-20
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, . . .TEACHING them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.””
Hi David:Of course when someone becomes a Christian, He has to be discipled. I consider all of this part of the good news. But I am not controlled by any denomination. I seek to follow the Lord Jesus.
If someone teaches a scripture different than what I understand it, I am not going to agree with their teaching for the sake of being a member of their denomination unless I understand it that way.
I do not believe that God intended for us to be divided this way. We are Christians, and we are responsible to God for what we teach and do.
I worship with a congregation that teaches the “trinity doctrine” among other doctrines with which I disagree, and I am not a member because they require that someone sign that they agree with their doctrines in order to be a member. I have gone to the pastors and discussed these differences with them. I do believe that we need to be honest with them about our differences without fear of being asked to leave. If they do ask us to leave, then we should just leave. These pastors told me that they would just have to agree to disagree with me, but they told me that I was welcome. I agree with much of what they do teach.
The fact that they understand these doctrines differently than I do does not mean that they are not Christians. They do many good works in obedience to God as Christians, and I agree with their works and support them.
The Apostle Paul stated relative to divisions in the church:
Quote For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
1Cr 3:5 ¶ Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
1Cr 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1Cr 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
1Cr 3:8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
1Cr 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, [ye are] God's building.
1Cr 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Cr 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Cr 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Cr 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.God Bless
Hi david,
The catholics say the same sort of thing.
They are proud to claim they were baptised a catholic.
Better and more useful to come into relationship with God and His son.Hi..all
Me and the wife are traveling thru the state celebrating our anniversary…so i'll respond later
BLessings
Oh…and David…before you draw..untrue conclusions as to what the name “dirtyknections” means…why not ask…honestly man…you are so worried about trying to “expose” me you ignore the obvious things about me…no matter what YOU deduce from a website that has my musical creations on…you can not come to an accurate conclusion unless you aske..ME..lol
Bottom line Brother…
You are being overly judgemental and almost slanderish in your attacks on me…chill out…discuss the scriptures presented…and breathe..
God judges all…become secure in that..and you will not have to worry about what I or anyone else say about what you believe…
So lemme clarify…JW have do indeed have the “truth”…remember…”truth'' is only truth to the one believing it…with that being said…everyone else on here has the “truth” also…God will judge you on your individual merits and “truth” you believe…I believe that with all my heart…now if you are afraid God will find your truth lacking….keep seeking out what you think he wants you to find…Me on the other hand…I feel i have been led into “truth”…and if he comes tomorrow to judge me on my “truth”, I honestly believe he will say…”Well done”
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 01 2008,01:57) Hi..all Me and the wife are traveling thru the state celebrating our anniversary…so i'll respond later
BLessings
“Me and the wife….”Love it.
Have a wonderful anniversary, DK.
MandyQuote (dirtyknections @ June 01 2008,01:57) Hi..all Me and the wife are traveling thru the state celebrating our anniversary…so i'll respond later
BLessings
Happy anniversary brother. How many years have you been married?Quote (dirtyknections @ June 01 2008,02:13) So lemme clarify…JW have do indeed have the “truth”…remember…”truth'' is only truth to the one believing it…with that being said…everyone else on here has the “truth” also…God will judge you on your individual merits and “truth” you believe…I believe that with all my heart…now if you are afraid God will find your truth lacking….keep seeking out what you think he wants you to find…Me on the other hand…I feel i have been led into “truth”…and if he comes tomorrow to judge me on my “truth”, I honestly believe he will say…”Well done”
Hi DK,
Happy anniversary, I hope you have a great time. Can I ask you for a definition please – what is yours for “truth”?Blessings
Is 1:18hi..all…
thanks for the blessings on my anniversary….
Isa 1:18…
Truth…religiously speaking (to me) is what ever YOU have “rightly divided” and become “fully convinced” of…in other words…nobody can judge and condemn as wrong anything anyone else believes…yes…you can disagree…yes its ok to say its wrong based on your understanding…but to judge that “person” as “wrong” and not in “truth” and “not favored in gods eyes” because your truth does not agree is wrong..(in my eyes)
Remember…Paul said, “anything not done in faith is sin”, so if your faith is what drives your beliefs and you believe in those things essential for salvation…God bless and keep seeking, keep asking, and keep dividing that word
Quote (dirtyknections @ June 02 2008,13:37) hi..all… thanks for the blessings on my anniversary….
Isa 1:18…
Truth…religiously speaking (to me) is what ever YOU have “rightly divided” and become “fully convinced” of…in other words…nobody can judge and condemn as wrong anything anyone else believes…yes…you can disagree…yes its ok to say its wrong based on your understanding…but to judge that “person” as “wrong” and not in “truth” and “not favored in gods eyes” because your truth does not agree is wrong..(in my eyes)
Remember…Paul said, “anything not done in faith is sin”, so if your faith is what drives your beliefs and you believe in those things essential for salvation…God bless and keep seeking, keep asking, and keep dividing that word
I think what you've described is opinion, not truth. Truth, as I know it, is predicated on reality not people's convictions. I think a good working definition is “that which conforms to reality”. I mean I could postulate anything I like as truth but it does not conform to reality it is, by it's nature, untrue. For example I could be convinced in my own mind that Seattle is the real Capitol of USA. But is that truth? No. Do you see where I'm coming from? I think, as christians, we need to carefully define our terms and use words like “truth” judiciously, especially as Yeshua affirmed that He was the truth!!Blessings
Hey Nick…
Earlier in the thread you asked David if he believes “all others are decieved and he has no brothers here”…yes that is what he believes… but that is one of the main things I disagree with the average JW on…I believe that if you believe that Christ died for our sins and was resurrected by his Father 3 days later….and you love his Father which is our Father with whole souled devotion…and you love your neighbor…and you preach these things…YOU ARE MY BROTHER…
-Whether or not you celebrate christmas…has no bearing on whether you are my brother
-Whether or not you celebrate birthdays…has no bearing on whether you are my brother
..etc…etc…etc…I refuse to seperate myself as “more sanctified and holy” and “in truth” because of my membership in a certain religious group…sorry… the body of Christ is not bound by an religions organizational walls. The body of Christ is made up of INDIVIDUALS who God has called into the body… the only person who can who can definitively say who is a member a member and who isn't..is Christ…”my sheep know me, and I know my sheep”…
So any person or Group who claims to “know” who makes up that body and who doesn't…is speaking words that Jesus himself has not spoken…Jesus left no list…and if his list is not available..then whos list are these persons or groups reading from?
Leave the judging and seperating to God and Christ…
Simply put.. trying to figure out who are “sheep and the goats” and “wheat and the weeds” = NOT OUR JURISDICTION
Acts 1:7 (NWT)- He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction…
JESUS HAS NOT SEPERATED ANYONE YET…SO NEITHER SHALL I
Hey…Isa 1:18
I agree…but not when it comes to the Bible…Simply put…”truth”..in the bible..is individually attained..individually believed…individually lived…so your version of it maybe a little different than mines…but as long as we believe those things essential for salvation…and we do everything else in faith…we will be fine
Let me quickly debunk Davids notions that my alias…”dirtyknections”… is somehow unchristian…
I myself am african-american…in my culture…the word “dirty”…especially among the younger generation…has a different meaning than whats normally deduced…”dirty” can mean: fresh, cool, fly,
Basically its a euphemism…
David…
I stand by my statements on converting..Jesus did say, “go therefore and makes disciples”…but the fact of the matter is WE CAN NOT CONVERT ANYONE…all we can do is declare the things God has shown us and teach the ones who are interested in those things….
1 Cor 3:4-8 (NWT)- 4 For when one says: “I belong to Paul,” but another says: “I to A·pol´los,” are YOU not simply men? 5 What, then, is A·pol´los? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom YOU became believers, even as the Lord granted each one.
6 I planted, A·pol´los watered, but God kept making [it] grow; 7 so that neither is he that plants anything nor is he that waters, but God who makes [it] grow. 8 Now he that plants and he that waters are one, but each [person] will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. YOU people are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building.
Like I said all we can do is DECLARE…what people do with the message..is up to them and God…YES..we have can share in the work…but the credit goes to God…
This is what it means to make disciples
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