Questions about Jesus

Participant

WJ, Indeed you are correct when you say that we do not serve the same Jesus.

When Peter was asked by Jesus, “Who do you say that I am?” Peter gave an answer that I echo. He said, “You are the Son of the living God.” Now Jesus thought that his answer was correct. Not only did Jesus say his answer was correct, but he told him that it was revealed to him by his Father! So, if you believe in that Jesus – the one Peter confessed – then we believe in the same Jesus.

If you answer Jesus' question with something like: You are the Son of the living God who is the second person of the same, said God. Then, no, we do not confess the same Jesus at all.

I agree with Paul's confession of who God and Jesus are in 1 Cor. 8:6. Notice that he didn't have anything to say about your so-called third member of the triune God. That is curious, isn't it?

March 20, 2007 at 2:00 am#45592

Participant

Hi,
And there are indeed other Jesus's
2Cor 11
” 1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him'

So the false ones lead away from simplicity and into deception.
At least we have the Word of God that we can abide in safely.
But those who do not abide in the Word are never humanly alone.
However they do not abide with the Father and the Son.

2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

11For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.”

March 20, 2007 at 2:04 am#45593

Participant

Is there a person in god that does the work of supplying men with miracle power?

Acts 10 says God was WITH Jesus.
Was that the trinity god?
Was he with himself?

March 20, 2007 at 2:47 am#45597

Participant

Hi w,
You say
“I have stated that the Spirit is the third person of the trinity and anointed Jesus with power for his ministry of miracles.”
What trinity? Is it in the bible.
Surely your God is the Father?

March 20, 2007 at 3:45 am#45601

Participant

WJ, When it comes to Bible Scholars and those who hold degrees……you can find as many as you would like to back your particular brand of religion. So-called “Scholars” come in all flavors. However, Jesus did not bring the Good News of the Kingdom of God to the learned men of the day. He brought the gospel to the fishermen. Jesus praised his Father for revealing wisdom to children and keeping it from the “wise” men of the day. So I will gladly accept and understand the Bible as a child would. After reading the NT, no child would understand that God was in three persons – I guarentee it!

I do not believe that my faith requires another translation of the Bible. You can find what I believe in any version or translation/transliteration of the Bible. Because I do not subscribe to your interpretations of the scriptures does not mean that I do not believe the Bible as it is written. It means that I do not believe what you believe. For some, that is a hard thing to accept with grace. I know that for me, a few years ago, I felt that I needed to get everyone on the same page as me – or they were wrong. I wasted a lot of time “telling” the truth, instead of “sharing” the truth. The difference is that one is done out of pride, and the other out of humility. God knows our hearts……and that is a very reassuring thing.

March 20, 2007 at 4:22 am#45610

Participant

The doctrine of the Trinity depends upon the reality of a “third person” called “the Holy Spirit” to complete a supposed multi-personal Godhead. Without such a separate person who is “co-eternal” and “co-equal” with the Father and the Son, the “Triune” God disintegrates. It is therefore wise to consider the reasons why this idea is not supported by logical scrutiny nor the weight of scriptural evidence.

The Holy Spirit is never worshiped as are the Father and the Son, neither does any verse of the scripture command such worship. This is surprising if the Holy Spirit is truly a co-equal and co-eternal member of a triune “God” worthy of worship. If “God” is worthy of worship, and “God” exists in three persons, then shouldn't each “God” person be worthy of worship? Then why is this idea not found in scripture?

In the opening of their NT epistles, every one of the writers identifies himself with God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, but not one does so with “the Holy Spirit.” If they were ignorant of the truth of a “tri-personal” God, and this truth constitutes the foundation of the Christian faith, then their apostleship was incomplete at best, and at worst they were teaching error.

One more thought, in the eternal city of Rev. 21 and 22, both God and Jesus Christ are prominently featured. Each is pictured as sitting on his throne. If “the Holy Spirit” is a “co-equal” member of the Triune Godhead, it is strange indeed that He seems to have no seat of authority on the final throne. This is consistent with the biblical teaching that there is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, and no such separate person known as “the Holy Spirit.”

March 20, 2007 at 4:59 am#45612

Participant

Adam Pastor, thank you so much for the link to your website. You have many, many interesting things to say on various topics. I will be reading into the night on this website, I can tell.

The link to the “Biblical Unitarians” is the group that I first identified with when I denounced the Trinity in 2003. They have some excellent research!

March 20, 2007 at 5:52 am#45615

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 20 2007,02:08)

WJ, Indeed you are correct when you say that we do not serve the same Jesus.

If you answer Jesus' question with something like: You are the Son of the living God who is the second person of the same, said God. Then, no, we do not confess the same Jesus at all.

I agree with Paul's confession of who God and Jesus are in 1 Cor. 8:6. Notice that he didn't have anything to say about your so-called third member of the triune God. That is curious, isn't it?

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 20 2007,02:08)

WJ, Indeed you are correct when you say that we do not serve the same Jesus.

If you answer Jesus' question with something like: You are the Son of the living God who is the second person of the same, said God. Then, no, we do not confess the same Jesus at all.

I agree with Paul's confession of who God and Jesus are in 1 Cor. 8:6. Notice that he didn't have anything to say about your so-called third member of the triune God. That is curious, isn't it?

Not3in1

If you believe Jesus was just a man like you and I in every way,

Then I say agian, we dont believe in the same Jesus!

The question is what did Monogenes Son of God mean.

John seems to know.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

John 20:
27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Note:
Just 3 verses before John says these things were written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Son of God, he records Thomas calling Jesus his Lord and God, without rebuke or denial by either John or our Lord, that he was God!

John also writes about this Son of God in his Epistles, which I have already shown that the Anti Christ Spirit says that Jesus didnt come in the flesh, which is a useless statement if you interpret it to mean that he was born like you and I.

He explains a little more about the Word that was with God.

1 Jn 5:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

No thought or plan has life especially Eternal life!

Jesus was and is the Eternal life that was with the Father, the Word/God that was manifest in the flesh, the Lord from heaven!

John ends his Epistle with…

1 Jn 5:
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

I Cor 8:
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
.

Study your biblkical history my friend. You will see that when Paul was writting to the Corinthians, pagenism and polythiesm was the order of the day.

Notice Paul says in verse 4 and 6 that to him there is only ONE GOD

Paul being a strict Monothiestic Jew, Hebrew of the Hebrews, glosses of the Father and the The Lord Jesus in the same breath ascribing a God like attribute to each one.

To us there is but One God,

The Father, of whom are all things,
and
one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Paul confirms this in many places for instance…

1 Tim 1:
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Paul confirns who this King he calls God is in chapter 6…

1 Tim 6:
14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Concerning the Spirit Paul says…

Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ. Same Spirit. One Spirit.

1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Whos spirit dwells in you Not3in1?

The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ, or the Comforter, the Holy Spirit?

2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

My Bible says God lives in me, One Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of God!

How about you my friend?

March 20, 2007 at 5:57 am#45618

Participant

Hi W,
You say
“My Bible says God lives in me, One Spirit which is the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of God!”
Why would you say this one Spirit is another person in God?

March 20, 2007 at 6:17 am#45623

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 20 2007,04:45)

Not3in1

I see you talking and hear you saying “You can find what I believe in any version or translation/transliteration of the Bible.”,
But I dont see any scriptures or anything to refute the scriptures that I have given.

Is this what you do?

Just condescend on people about how God shows himself to the simple. And simply accuse them that they are wrong without showing them scripturally why?

Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, educated by the very best of his day, and God inspired him to write 2 thirds of the New Testament.

In your last three post you havnt posted a single scripture to back up your view or refute mine!

Also if you are demonstrating Humility, then I dont want that type of humility!

March 20, 2007 at 6:21 am#45624

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 20 2007,05:22)

Not3in1

Lots of words, no scripture.

Where is your scriptural proof my friend?

March 20, 2007 at 7:31 am#45630

Participant

Please w,
Do not ask for scriptural proofs while you still promote the trinity legend.

March 20, 2007 at 8:48 am#45632

david

Participant

Most definitions of “god” if you check dictionaries (which is perhaps the wrong place to get such a definition) have the phrase “object of worship” in the definition.

God Almighty is clearly deserving of worship.

If the holy spirit is “god” then you would think it should be worshiped.

If it is not worshiped, then how can we call it God Almighty?
Even more basic, if the Bible doesn't call it “god” as it does of Jehovah more than a 1000 times, why would we want to do this?

I think it's best to follow the Bible in this. Nowhere is it clear that the holy spirit is “God” or worshiped as God.

There are two possible reasons for this:
1. the holy spirit is not God or part of a trinity.
2. Despite the holy spirit being equal and God, it is never really called such and never mentioned as being worth of worship.

If it is right to worship the holy spirt, then God would have made that clear in his word. It seems if the holy spirit is deserving of worship, it would be a sin not to do so, it being God and all. Yet, no mention is made of this. No command. No hint. And even if there was something that some could twist as being a “hint,” why would God's word only hint at such a thing?

This is utter nonsense and I often wonder why I waste my time on such obvious things.

March 20, 2007 at 9:06 am#45636

Is 1:18

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2007,08:31)

Please w,
Do not ask for scriptural proofs while you still promote the trinity legend.

Where are all of these silly rules coming from?

March 20, 2007 at 3:39 pm#45647

Participant

Quote (Adam Pastor @ Mar. 20 2007,01:19)

Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 19 2007,23:29)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 19 2007,23:07)

Say, Tim, what is the name of the translation you are referring to from the 1600's?

Hi not3in1,

In all of these earlier bibles, Tyndale 1525, Tyndale 1534, Matthew's Bible 1537, The Great Bible 1539, The Geneva Bible 1560, the Bishop's Bible (1568) …
all had 'it' in John 1:3-4, instead of Him.
After the Catholic Rheims NT was printed in 1582 with him in Jn.1:3-4 it appears that the KJV translators followed that trend … placed 'him' in vv. 3-4; starting with the KJV 1611, and thus, the patent misreading continues today.

Bless you,

Tim

Quote

Anyways, here are some examples of the pre-KJV translations that I speak of …

Tyndale 1525: http://alleluya.com/TyNT/jn.htm#1:1
In the beginning was that word, and that word was with god: and god was that word. The same was in the beginning with god. All things were made by it, and without it, was made no thing, that made was. In it was life, And life was the light of men, And the light shineth in the darkness, and darkness comprehended it not.

Tyndale 1530: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/WTT.htm
In the beginnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God: and the worde was God. The same was in the beginnynge with God. All thinges were made by it, and with out it, was made nothinge, that was made. http://sbible.boom.ru/tyndale.jpg

The Great (Cranmer's) Bible (1539-40)
“In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was wyth God; and God was the worde. The same was in the begynnyng wyth God. All thinges were made by it, and wythout it, was made nothynge that was made. In it was lyfe, and the lyfe was the lyght of men, and the lyght shyneth in darcknes, and the darcknes comprehended it not”
(Great Bible, The Byble in Englyshe, that is to saye the Content of al the holy Scrypture, both of the olde, and newe Testament, London: Edward Whitchurche, 1539).

Coverdale 1540: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptures/TCB.htm
In the begynnynge was the worde, and the worde was with God, and God was ye worde. The same was in the begynnynge wt God. All thinges were made by the same, and without the same was made nothinge that was made.

Geneva 1560: http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Scriptures/TGB.htm
In the beginning was the Worde, and the Worde was with God and that Worde was God. The same was in the beginning w God. All things were made by it, & without it was made nothing that was made

Bishop's Bible 1568
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was that Word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by it, and without it, was made nothing that was made. In it was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in the darknesse, and the darknesse comprehendeth it not”
(Bishops’ Bible, The Holie Bible, London: Richard Jugge, 1568).

Fascinating huh!
Did you notice in the first few translations of the Gospel of John, “word” was not capitalized.

Source:
http://adonimessiah.blogspot.com/2007….26.html

By the way.

Thank you for the interpretations!

March 20, 2007 at 3:59 pm#45648

Participant

Quote (david @ Mar. 20 2007,09:48)

Most definitions of “god” if you check dictionaries (which is perhaps the wrong place to get such a definition) have the phrase “object of worship” in the definition.

God Almighty is clearly deserving of worship.

If the holy spirit is “god” then you would think it should be worshiped.

If it is not worshiped, then how can we call it God Almighty?
Even more basic, if the Bible doesn't call it “god” as it does of Jehovah more than a 1000 times, why would we want to do this?

I think it's best to follow the Bible in this. Nowhere is it clear that the holy spirit is “God” or worshiped as God.

This is utter nonsense and I often wonder why I waste my time on such obvious things.

David

Ask your self how many Spirits of God are there?

The Bible says “ONE SPIRIT”. God is Spirit!

So if you are worshipping God you are worshipping Spirit.

Are you not?

The Wonder and beauty of this Great God we serve is that not anly are we worshipping God who is Spirit but we are worshipping God “in” Spirit and in truth”.

See, ask your self agian. How can God be in you and you be in God at the same time?

We try to put this Glorious, wonderful, infinatly all powerfull God who created the universe into our finite little minds and its like putting a square into a round hole.

We know in part but then we shall see him face to face.

March 20, 2007 at 4:25 pm#45649

Participant

WJ, Excellent posts! I am heading out this morning to see a client, but I will ponder these things in my heart. When I return home this afternoon, I'll look up all the scriptures you referenced, and give a reply. I'm encouraged to see your zeal for the gospel. Press on, brother!

March 20, 2007 at 4:39 pm#45650

Participant

Actually, I would like to extend a thank you to everyone on this board. I have been encouraged to see how many are studying the scriptures daily, and defending their beliefs. This board is sharpening my “give an answer for what you believe” skills…..thank you!

March 20, 2007 at 6:44 pm#45654