Questions about Jesus

[NickHassan]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 18 2007,07:36)

Hi ToTeach, I have been studying the Trinity since 2003.  One of the first things I looked at was the genuine sonship of Jesus.  Because I also work in the medical field, I took it a bit further and decided to really look at the conception of Jesus.  Now, if God is Jesus' biological Father (and he is), then Jesus must also contain “divine” as well as “human” elements.  We find that this backed up in scripture.  Paul tells us that “as to his human nature…..” and also “as to his spirit….” so we see there are two “natures” taking place in Jesus.  This is not to say that Jesus is half God and half man – I do not see that point of view in the whole tenor of scripture.  I do see that Jesus is a human man.  He was born of a women, under law, just the very same as you and I.  Flesh and blood.  He had to be flesh and blood to partake in the sufferings of man(kind).  The fact that God Almighty was his Daddy, doesn't mean that he isn't like us.  After all, God Almighty is also my Daddy, too.  I'm adopted and so are you!  We can partake in that “divine” nature. Who is Jesus?  The question is always answered with another question…..What is Jesus?  God sent a man the first time – Adam.  Paul tells us that he sent a man – Jesus – the second time, too.  Jesus is a man.  A unique man.  He is a combination of his Father and his Mother.  Just like you are and just like I am.  Jesus is a divine man.  Now listen to this, this is the best part, now that we are born again (we have followed Jesus in his death and soon his ressurection) we are like him!  We are also sons and daughters.  We are, in fact, co-heirs with Jesus (we get what he gets, essentially).  We were meant to be divine children all along.  Now we can realize that because of Jesus and all he sacrificed for us.   Jesus is God's son.  And we are adopted sons and daughters.  Jesus was the first (divine) son…….we follow. It's very late here on the West Coast, I can provide scriptures if need be, however I'm sure you all are most familiar with the passages I have alluded to.  Take care all and I'm very happy to participate in this discussion. Goodnight

Ho Not3,
God was the father of Adam and of all of us through Adam. Did Adam too have divine elements and do we also?

Lk 3
“38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.”

Just because the monogenes Son had divine origins does not tell us he brought any advantages from that especially if we know from Phil 2 that he emptied himself before coming.

The Spirit Paul refers to is the Spirit of God with which he was anointed and filled without measure, not his own.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2007,03:04)

Just because the monogenes Son had divine origins does not tell us he brought any advantages from that especially if we know from Phil 2 that he emptied himself before coming.

Hi Nick,

Phil 2 does not necessarily tell us that he emptied himself before coming.

Phl 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
Phl 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phl 2:7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.

Read Phil 2:7 in context with Phil 2:5, and you will see that emptying himself was an attitude that we ourselves should have. He emptied himself while alive here on earth, not emptied himself of his power before coming. That is just another one of man's myths to help prove the pre-existence
of Jesus.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Hi not3in1,

I have been drawn to the same conclusions that you have concerning the pre-existence of Jesus.
Unfortunately, we seem to be few.
Too many other people have been indoctrinated with the belief that has been instilled in their thinking by theologians, thus changing scriptures to fit their belief.

Rest assured, we will be ridiculed for our understanding.
Take heart in the fact that many are called, but few are chosen.

Go with God,

Tim

[Not3in1]

It's a gorgeous morning here!

Adam was made from mud. We are a decendant from a mud-man (so to speak). Jesus was a biological Son. We were “created” and Jesus was “born.” There is a huge difference, obviously. That is why we need the promises, the hope, the redemption and the reconciliation, and ultimately, the adoption. Adam was a son of God. But Jesus is the only begotten of God. That is why I look forward to my adoption – where I will be changed and made to be what God intended. Jesus is the first of many……I am part of that many!

Whether Jesus had special advantages or not is up to scriptural interpretation, of course. He told the disciples that he had bread to eat that no one knew about. He also was able to see the Father working and learned from him. Certainly, these would be special priviledges of an only begotten Son. Jesus shared all he learned from the Father because he was an excellent role model and because he knew of our limitations (we could not, for instance, see the Father working). So that is partially why Jesus came….to show us the Father. Now, that Jesus is gone and not able to show us the Father any longer, we have the spirit of God deposited in us. It's our guarentee that we are his. Because we have the spirit of God inside of us, we know longer need a physical Jesus to show us the Father. We can go as far as prayer to be right in front of the throne. That is our priviledge now – praise God!

Brother Tim, thanks for the encouragement. And I will also strengthen you by saying that God knows our hearts. He knows the heart of every single man and women on this board and in this world. I am so happy to know that it is not up to me who is right and who is wrong. Who will spend eternity with our Father and his Son, and who will not. We are just called to love first, and then to spread the GOOD NEWS! God bless you as you do!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 19 2007,14:11)

Hi not3in1, I have been drawn to the same conclusions that you have concerning the pre-existence of Jesus. Unfortunately, we seem to be few. Too many other people have been indoctrinated with the belief that has been instilled in their thinking by theologians, thus changing scriptures to fit their belief. Rest assured, we will be ridiculed for our understanding. Take heart in the fact that many are called, but few are chosen. Go with God, Tim

TimothyVI

How do you change this?

Jn 6:38
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jn 16:27,28
For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that B]I came out from God.[/B]

I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

JN 17:8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Jn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

1 Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

Do you know who he is?

He is the Lord from heaven.

Please tell me your interpretation of these scriptures. This is only a few of probably 100s that shows his pre-existence before his incarnation!

If Jesus did not pre-exist as the Word then how did he make all things?

[Not3in1]

When you are born – where do you come from? Your mother's womb, right? Did you not also come from the seed of your father? You came from both of your parents. Isn't it logical to assume then, that Jesus came from his Father? The Father is in heaven. Mary is on earth. Son of God and the Son of Man. This cannot be overlooked if we want to find out who and what Jesus is. To say that he “came from heaven” and then was “incarnated” into the womb of Mary is like nothing we can relate to.

Why would our heavenly “Father” give us an example that would not have any significance to us? Why would he give us an example that only had significance in the pagen world (that is, that God can come down in human form – see Acts and the story of other pagen gods)?

God gave us an example that was close to our hearts so that we could understand Jesus. Remember that everyone in Nazareth thought Jesus was the son of Joseph. They had no clue that he was the Messiah until he began to show his glory through miracles (and that power was given to him by the Father).

So, to hang on to the dogma of incarnation is to, I firmly believe, rob you of the person who is Jesus Christ. Our brother, and Saviour. He can only be our mediator between us and our Father because he was/is like us! Otherwise, if you view the mediation through the eyes that Jesus is God incarnate (God come in the flesh of Jesus), then our mediation is somewhat of a circus.

God does not want us to lose sight of our logic and ability to reason things out. He said to Abraham – come, let us reason together! God wants us to use our minds to determine what is possible and logical. To determine what is within the bounds of reason and what is another pagen trap. Jesus was born. Think about the significance of that. To be born…..what are all the steps needed for that to occur? And when it does occur, what is the end result? This was/is God's plan. Birth. Born-again. There is a theme there. Nowhere does incarnation play a part in this theme. In fact, it robs it of it's blessings.

Indulge me for a moment as I re-write John 1:1 through the eyes of birth, not incarnation. I will be using my son's name and my husband's name. My son will represent the Word and my husband, God.

“In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan. Nathan was with Dan in the beginning.”

Before Nathan was born, he literally existed only in the seed of Dan. This theory has some flaws, true. But give it some thought. I don't mean to debate it, it is only given for food-for-thought. There are scriptures which seem to justify it's theory both in the OT and in the NT. If God is the Father of Jesus, we would expect for Jesus to have been apart of the Father and at some point, “come from” the Father – just as my son “came from” my husband.

I think we are all pleasing the Lord by pondering him. And no doubt we are pleasing the Father because we love his Son!

Father, it is my prayer that you give us wisdom as we seek you! We all want more insight to your Word. We all want to answer the question of your Son, “Who do you say that I am?” correctly. Help us to do that. Be with us and guide us this day. Forgive us of our sins and trespasses as we forgive others. And finally, give us your love for this dying world so that we can spread the GOOD NEWS!
We love you, Father. In Jesus name, Amen.

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,16:32)

How do you change this? Jn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. Jn 16:27,28 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that B]I came out from God.[/B] I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. JN 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

Hi WorshippingJesus,

I couldn't have explained your first three scriptures any better than Not 3in1.
Don't you think that explanation makes perfect sense?

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,16:32)

Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Hi Worshipping Jesus,

As for Jn 8:58, AdamPastor gave an explanation
of that verse in another thread.

“(John 9:8-9) The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

The same Greek ego eimi as in John 8.58, etc!

There is absolutely no connection between Exo 3.14 & John 8.58. The simplest proof of this is to look at the Greek of Exo 3.14 in the LXX.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, ego eimi ho ohn: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ho ohn hath sent me unto you.

If Jesus was indeed identifying himself with the One in Exo 3.14; John would have recorded him saying …
“Before Abraham, ego eimi ho ohn” OR
“Before Abraham, ho ohn”

Jesus said no such this!
Jesus used the phrase ego eimi to identify himself as the promised Messiah (just as he did in 4.26,8:24,28)
In like manner, the man who was healed uses the same phrase to identify himself as the one who was blind.
ego eimi is equivalent to It's me!”

I am not taking my belief from either Not3in1, or AdamPastor.
It jsut so happens that they explained my belief in their posts as concerns these two topics.

If you have not pre conceived ideas, you will look at these two definitions with an open mind.

In Jn8:58, the two (I am's) are clearly not the same thing.

I will get to your other question in a little while. I have to leave for a short while.

Tim

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,16:32)

1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Hi Worshipping Jesus,

Since Jesus was generated by God, who is in heaven,
through Mary, and God is His Father. Then Jesus is the Lord from heaven.

I have no problem with that.

Tim

[TimothyVI]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,16:32)

TimothyVI How do you change this? Jn 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Do you know who he is?

Hi WorshippingJesus,

I know that you will not believe me but I will tell you how these were changed.

For almost 1600 years after Jesus died, John 1 read like this.

1. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and God was the word.
2.The same was in the beginning with God.
3.All things were made by it; and without it was not anything made that was made.

You notice that the “w” is not capitalized. And in Jn1:3 the word is referenced as it. This is the way the scriptures were written and understood until the Catholic KJV of the bible rewrote it. Then all they had to do was add the Holy Spirit as another being and they had a trinity.

I know that you will not believe simple history because it interferes with you man made doctrine. But that is O.K.
I really do not think that God will disprove as long as you believe in His Son.

Tim

This is because the word of god was exactly that. His logos,
His word, or plan or whatever. But not another being.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 19 2007,17:10)

When you are born – where do you come from?  Your mother's womb, right?  Did you not also come from the seed of your father?  You came from both of your parents.  Isn't it logical to assume then, that Jesus came from his Father?  The Father is in heaven.  Mary is on earth.  Son of God and the Son of Man.  This cannot be overlooked if we want to find out who and what Jesus is.  To say that he “came from heaven” and then was “incarnated” into the womb of Mary is like nothing we can relate to.   Why would our heavenly “Father” give us an example that would not have any significance to us?  Why would he give us an example that only had significance in the pagen world (that is, that God can come down in human form – see Acts and the story of other pagen gods)?   God gave us an example that was close to our hearts so that we could understand Jesus.  Remember that everyone in Nazareth thought Jesus was the son of Joseph.  They had no clue that he was the Messiah until he began to show his glory through miracles (and that power was given to him by the Father). So, to hang on to the dogma of incarnation is to, I firmly believe, rob you of the person who is Jesus Christ.  Our brother, and Saviour.  He can only be our mediator between us and our Father because he was/is like us!  Otherwise, if you view the mediation through the eyes that Jesus is God incarnate (God come in the flesh of Jesus), then our mediation is somewhat of a circus.   God does not want us to lose sight of our logic and ability to reason things out.  He said to Abraham – come, let us reason together!  God wants us to use our minds to determine what is possible and logical.  To determine what is within the bounds of reason and what is another pagen trap.  Jesus was born.  Think about the significance of that.  To be born…..what are all the steps needed for that to occur?  And when it does occur, what is the end result?  This was/is God's plan.  Birth.  Born-again.  There is a theme there.  Nowhere does incarnation play a part in this theme.  In fact, it robs it of it's blessings. Indulge me for a moment as I re-write John 1:1 through the eyes of birth, not incarnation.  I will be using my son's name and my husband's name.  My son will represent the Word and my husband, God.   “In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan.  Nathan was with Dan in the beginning.” Before Nathan was born, he literally existed only in the seed of Dan.  This theory has some flaws, true.  But give it some thought.  I don't mean to debate it, it is only given for food-for-thought.  There are scriptures which seem to justify it's theory both in the OT and in the NT.  If God is the Father of Jesus, we would expect for Jesus to have been apart of the Father and at some point, “come from” the Father – just as my son “came from” my husband.   I think we are all pleasing the Lord by pondering him.  And no doubt we are pleasing the Father because we love his Son! Father, it is my prayer that you give us wisdom as we seek you!  We all want more insight to your Word.  We all want to answer the question of your Son, “Who do you say that I am?” correctly.  Help us to do that.  Be with us and guide us this day.  Forgive us of our sins and trespasses as we forgive others.  And finally, give us your love for this dying world so that we can spread the GOOD NEWS! We love you, Father.  In Jesus name, Amen.

Not3in1

The problem with your analysis is you are trying to make Jesus into our image rather than us being made into his.

We are to follow his example, he is not to follow ours.

You mention nothing of him creating all things…

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

10 he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The biggest lie of satan would be to deny that Jesus has come in the flesh.

This is the spirit of anti-christ.

1 Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;

1 Jn 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

My friend! What you teach goes against many many scriptures.

Please address these that I post here. Give me your interpretation of them!

Blessings

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 19 2007,18:06)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,16:32) 1 Cor 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. Hi Worshipping Jesus, Since Jesus was generated by God, who is in heaven, through Mary, and God is His Father. Then Jesus is the Lord from heaven. I have no problem with that. Tim

TimothyVI

You are grossely miss-interpreting the scripture.

Look at its context.

How do yo come to this conclusion In light of Jn 1:1 and many other scriptures that show he pre-existed his natural birth?

[Not3in1]

There will be a gazillion different interpretations of the “I am” statement in the NT. My question to those who believe that Jesus claimed the holy name for himself is this – does the tenor of the NT support it? When you claim a name for yourself, you must back it up. Did Jesus do that? Most certainly not! He didn't even claim to be good! He didn't claim to know when he would return to the earth. Even more, he said that the only one who was good was God and the only one who knew the time of his return was his Father. That sure doesn't sound convincing to me that Jesus was claiming to be the great I AM – no sir!

For me, I think that sometimes Jesus must really be sad that he spent his whole life pointing us to the Father (by his words and living out loud) and we have turned right around and instead of recognizing who Jesus was/is – we have turned him into God, himself. If I were Jesus, I would tend to think that my mission was for not.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 19 2007,19:22)

There will be a gazillion different interpretations of the “I am” statement in the NT.  My question to those who believe that Jesus claimed the holy name for himself is this – does the tenor of the NT support it?  When you claim a name for yourself, you must back it up.  Did Jesus do that?  Most certainly not!  He didn't even claim to be good!  He didn't claim to know when he would return to the earth.  Even more, he said that the only one who was good was God and the only one who knew the time of his return was his Father.  That sure doesn't sound convincing to me that Jesus was claiming to be the great I AM – no sir! For me, I think that sometimes Jesus must really be sad that he spent his whole life pointing us to the Father (by his words and living out loud) and we have turned right around and instead of recognizing who Jesus was/is – we have turned him into God, himself.  If I were Jesus, I would tend to think that my mission was for not.

Not3in1

How about this…

Mk 14:58
We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

Jn 2:
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

Jn 4:14
[14] But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Do you know any Son of God that can make these and many claims like this?

Jesus could raise himself from the dead.

And give to drink the Holy Spirit.

He is far more than a mere man or annonted prophet my friend, he is and was the creator of all things!

God manifest in the flesh!

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (TimothyVI @ Mar. 19 2007,14:04)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2007,03:04) Just because the monogenes Son had divine origins does not tell us he brought any advantages from that especially if we know from Phil 2 that he emptied himself before coming. Hi Nick, Phil 2 does not necessarily tell us that he emptied himself before coming. Phl 2:5   Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,   Phl 2:6   who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,   Phl 2:7   but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.   Read Phil 2:7 in context with Phil 2:5, and you will see that emptying himself was an attitude that we ourselves should have. He emptied himself while alive here on earth, not emptied himself of his power before coming. That is just another one of man's myths to help prove the pre-existence of Jesus. Tim

TimothyVI

You forgot to mention the part where he was in the form of God and thought it not Robbery to be equal to God.

[Not3in1]

WJ,
Many scriptures came to mind as I read your post. I have made a list of them and will post a more thoughtful response this evening. Thank you for your thoughts on pre-existence. You make some excellent points, and I look forward to chatting with you more about this. Note – I do believe that Jesus came in the flesh. That is the point of my whole speal on birth versus incarnation. However, this is not the first time that I have been linked to the anit-Christ beliver's doctrine. It is a convenient passage of scripture to quote if you are trying to point fingers. You know what they say about pointing fingers……when you point, you have three pointing back at you!

The funny thing is, I do believe that JESUS came in the flesh and that is what the scripture is talking about. Brother, you believe that GOD came in the flesh. Interesting difference there, you must admit. Jesus is God in the way that my son is his Father. He is a part of him as any son is a part of his Father. Indeed, Jesus also agreed with this thought when he told the Pharisees and Sadjadudes that even those to whom the word came were referred to as gods, then why would they get all excited if he (Jesus) claimed to be the Son of God.

I do appreciate being called “friend” and it warms my heart to know that even though we may disagree, we can still love one another and respect one another, and in this way – show that we love Jesus by keeping his commandments. More later…..

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
You say
“We are to follow his example, he is not to follow ours.”
But he did not teach trinity??

[NickHassan]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,19:16)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 19 2007,17:10) When you are born – where do you come from?  Your mother's womb, right?  Did you not also come from the seed of your father?  You came from both of your parents.  Isn't it logical to assume then, that Jesus came from his Father?  The Father is in heaven.  Mary is on earth.  Son of God and the Son of Man.  This cannot be overlooked if we want to find out who and what Jesus is.  To say that he “came from heaven” and then was “incarnated” into the womb of Mary is like nothing we can relate to.   Why would our heavenly “Father” give us an example that would not have any significance to us?  Why would he give us an example that only had significance in the pagen world (that is, that God can come down in human form – see Acts and the story of other pagen gods)?   God gave us an example that was close to our hearts so that we could understand Jesus.  Remember that everyone in Nazareth thought Jesus was the son of Joseph.  They had no clue that he was the Messiah until he began to show his glory through miracles (and that power was given to him by the Father). So, to hang on to the dogma of incarnation is to, I firmly believe, rob you of the person who is Jesus Christ.  Our brother, and Saviour.  He can only be our mediator between us and our Father because he was/is like us!  Otherwise, if you view the mediation through the eyes that Jesus is God incarnate (God come in the flesh of Jesus), then our mediation is somewhat of a circus.   God does not want us to lose sight of our logic and ability to reason things out.  He said to Abraham – come, let us reason together!  God wants us to use our minds to determine what is possible and logical.  To determine what is within the bounds of reason and what is another pagen trap.  Jesus was born.  Think about the significance of that.  To be born…..what are all the steps needed for that to occur?  And when it does occur, what is the end result?  This was/is God's plan.  Birth.  Born-again.  There is a theme there.  Nowhere does incarnation play a part in this theme.  In fact, it robs it of it's blessings. Indulge me for a moment as I re-write John 1:1 through the eyes of birth, not incarnation.  I will be using my son's name and my husband's name.  My son will represent the Word and my husband, God.   “In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan.  Nathan was with Dan in the beginning.” Before Nathan was born, he literally existed only in the seed of Dan.  This theory has some flaws, true.  But give it some thought.  I don't mean to debate it, it is only given for food-for-thought.  There are scriptures which seem to justify it's theory both in the OT and in the NT.  If God is the Father of Jesus, we would expect for Jesus to have been apart of the Father and at some point, “come from” the Father – just as my son “came from” my husband.   I think we are all pleasing the Lord by pondering him.  And no doubt we are pleasing the Father because we love his Son! Father, it is my prayer that you give us wisdom as we seek you!  We all want more insight to your Word.  We all want to answer the question of your Son, “Who do you say that I am?” correctly.  Help us to do that.  Be with us and guide us this day.  Forgive us of our sins and trespasses as we forgive others.  And finally, give us your love for this dying world so that we can spread the GOOD NEWS! We love you, Father.  In Jesus name, Amen. Not3in1 The problem with your analysis is you are trying to make Jesus into our image rather than us being made into his. We are to follow his example, he is not to follow ours. You mention nothing of him creating all things… Jn 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 10 he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The biggest lie of satan would be to deny that Jesus has come in the flesh. This is the spirit of anti-christ. 1 Jn 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; 1 Jn 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was My friend! What you teach goes against many many scriptures. Please address these that I post here. Give me your interpretation of them! Blessings

psst W,
Jesus Christ is the SON of God.
He came in the flesh.
Sent by God.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 19 2007,20:05)

WJ, Many scriptures came to mind as I read your post.  I have made a list of them and will post a more thoughtful response this evening.  Thank you for your thoughts on pre-existence.  You make some excellent points, and I look forward to chatting with you more about this.  Note – I do believe that Jesus came in the flesh.  That is the point of my whole speal on birth versus incarnation.  However, this is not the first time that I have been linked to the anit-Christ beliver's doctrine.  It is a convenient passage of scripture to quote if you are trying to point fingers.  You know what they say about pointing fingers……when you point, you have three pointing back at you! The funny thing is, I do believe that JESUS came in the flesh and that is what the scripture is talking about.  Brother, you believe that GOD came in the flesh.  Interesting difference there, you must admit.  Jesus is God in the way that my son is his Father.  He is a part of him as any son is a part of his Father.  Indeed, Jesus also agreed with this thought when he told the Pharisees and Sadjadudes that even those to whom the word came were referred to as gods, then why would they get all excited if he (Jesus) claimed to be the Son of God. I do appreciate being called “friend” and it warms my heart to know that even though we may disagree, we can still love one another and respect one another, and in this way – show that we love Jesus by keeping his commandments.  More later…..

Not3in1

It will be interesting to see how you interpret Jn 1:1-3 and 14.

And how you will explain Jesus as being with the Father and of whom and by whom all things were made that was made and without him nothing was made that was made.

Since “ALL” things were made by him and for him, then we know he did not make himself.

He is not one of the created or a creature.

Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Col 1:17  And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2007,20:23)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 19 2007,19:16) Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 19 2007,17:10) When you are born – where do you come from?  Your mother's womb, right?  Did you not also come from the seed of your father?  You came from both of your parents.  Isn't it logical to assume then, that Jesus came from his Father?  The Father is in heaven.  Mary is on earth.  Son of God and the Son of Man.  This cannot be overlooked if we want to find out who and what Jesus is.  To say that he “came from heaven” and then was “incarnated” into the womb of Mary is like nothing we can relate to.   Why would our heavenly “Father” give us an example that would not have any significance to us?  Why would he give us an example that only had significance in the pagen world (that is, that God can come down in human form – see Acts and the story of other pagen gods)?   God gave us an example that was close to our hearts so that we could understand Jesus.  Remember that everyone in Nazareth thought Jesus was the son of Joseph.  They had no clue that he was the Messiah until he began to show his glory through miracles (and that power was given to him by the Father). So, to hang on to the dogma of incarnation is to, I firmly believe, rob you of the person who is Jesus Christ.  Our brother, and Saviour.  He can only be our mediator between us and our Father because he was/is like us!  Otherwise, if you view the mediation through the eyes that Jesus is God incarnate (God come in the flesh of Jesus), then our mediation is somewhat of a circus.   God does not want us to lose sight of our logic and ability to reason things out.  He said to Abraham – come, let us reason together!  God wants us to use our minds to determine what is possible and logical.  To determine what is within the bounds of reason and what is another pagen trap.  Jesus was born.  Think about the significance of that.  To be born…..what are all the steps needed for that to occur?  And when it does occur, what is the end result?  This was/is God's plan.  Birth.  Born-again.  There is a theme there.  Nowhere does incarnation play a part in this theme.  In fact, it robs it of it's blessings. Indulge me for a moment as I re-write John 1:1 through the eyes of birth, not incarnation.  I will be using my son's name and my husband's name.  My son will represent the Word and my husband, God.   “In the beginning was Nathan, and Nathan was with Dan, and Nathan was Dan.  Nathan was with Dan in the beginning.” Before Nathan was born, he literally existed only in the seed of Dan.  This theory has some flaws, true.  But give it some thought.  I don't mean to debate it, it is only given for food-for-thought.  There are scriptures which seem to justify it's theory both in the OT and in the NT.  If God is the Father of Jesus, we would expect for Jesus to have been apart of the Father and at some point, “come from” the Father – just as my son “came from” my husband.   I think we are all pleasing the Lord by pondering him.  And no doubt we are pleasing the Father because we love his Son! Father, it is my prayer that you give us wisdom as we seek you!  We all want more insight to your Word.  We all want to answer the question of your Son, “Who do you say that I am?” correctly.  Help us to do that.  Be with us and guide us this day.  Forgive us of our sins and trespasses as we forgive others.  And finally, give us your love for this dying world so that we can spread the GOOD NEWS! We love you, Father.  In Jesus name, Amen. Not3in1 The problem with your analysis is you are trying to make Jesus into our image rather than us being made into his. We are to follow his example, he is not to follow ours. You mention nothing of him creating all things… Jn 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 10 he was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The biggest lie of satan would be to deny that Jesus has come in the flesh. This is the spirit of anti-christ. 1 Jn 1: 1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; 1 Jn 4: 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. Jn 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was My friend! What you teach goes against many many scriptures. Please address these that I post here. Give me your interpretation of them! Blessings psst W, Jesus Christ is the SON of God. He came in the flesh. Sent by God.

NH

Psst..

Which scripture in my post do you delagree with?

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