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Quote (942767 @ Mar. 07 2007,02:05) Hi M42: I'm having difficulty understanding “being filled with the Holy breath” in light of the following scriptures: “As the living Father hath sent me, and I LIVE BY THE FATHER (I understand by obedience to His Word): so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me”. (John 6:57) And, “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE”.
It seems to be that the Holy Spirit is more that just God's Holy breath. Maybe I'm wrong?
God Bless
Hi Tim,
Perhaps a better translation would herlp. The greek says Jesus lives “because” of the Father.
to the hebrews breath is not just a moving of air. It represents life itself. In Genesis we see God breath life into Adam. In the story of Noah. God says he will destroy all creatures which have the breath of life in them. Job speaks of the breath of Life that is in him. the breath of God is that which gave animation and life to Adam. That life continues to us, though not directly from God as in Adam.BUT the promary reason for my understanding is that the Hebrew word “rauch” and the greek word “pneuma” both wrongly translated Spirit over and over again literally mean breath or wind. that is the correct translation of the word regardless what our modern English translations say.
Hi Nick,
First, the general baptism of the Holy Spirit did not occur till Pentacost as seen in Acts 2.
John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.you state –
We can follow a man who was changed by the baptism in the Spirit of God as we must also seek as those without the Spirit do not have Christ.Response – Are you then saying that the 120 in the upper room, including the disciples of Christ did not have Him till after the day of pentacost? Soory charlie – That will not wash!
There are however exceptions to this. Three come to mind in Elizabeth, Zacharias and Jesus. These were filled for specific purposes prior to the day of Pentacost.
You state –
God was always with His Son. But no works of power are recorded till the Jordan, and they would have been had they occurred.
Response –
this is a major assumption since scripture clearly states that if all the works that Jesus did were recorded the world could not contain the books. there is no way to know if Jesus did miracles befoe His baptis,. One cannot make an assumption either way.Starting a power ministry is not necessarily a sign of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth was filled and had no power ministry.
Luke 1
39Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,40and entered the house of Zacharias and greeted Elizabeth.
41When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Zacharias was filled and other them one prophecy we see no record of a power ministry.
67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
You stated earlier —
It was only then that locals remarked on his origins in the family of Joseph and noted the transformation by the power of the Spirit.How about His delaying in the Temple at 12?
Luke 2
46Then, after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions.
(Does a 12 y/o child do this if the Spirit/breath od God is not upon him?)47And all who heard Him were amazed at His understanding and His answers.
(Could a 12 y/o child amaze the teachers in the Temple wihtout the spirit/breath on him?)48When they saw Him, they were astonished; and His mother said to Him, “Son, why have You treated us this way? Behold, Your father and I have been anxiously looking for You.”
49And He said to them, “Why is it that you were looking for Me? Did you not know that I had to be in My Father's house?”
(Could a 12 y/o child have this unique and stupendous revelation of who He is without the Spirit/breath of God revealing it to him? Could a 12 y/o child be as bold to say this statement without the power of the Spirit/breath in Him?)It is my understanding that you believe a person is filled with the Holy spirit/breath at Baptism. Perhaps this is your reason for insisting that Jesus was filled in the same way. this is pedicated on the fact that your initial assimption of “baptism = filling” is correct. This means that you are interpreting scripture on the basis of doctrine. One of the basic mistakes of scriptural interpretation. A doctrine which in this case is not scriptural. (I am not going to discuss the baptism=filled on this thread)
Hi m42,
Are you alone in believing Jesus did lots of unrecorded miracles before someone started writing them down when he was 30? Is it not odd that he had no following by then and his neighbours seemed unaware of his extraordinary abilities? If we were to draw conclusions from the bible it is pure speculation to imagine these works of power before the Jordan and more of commonsense to say that they began at the Jordan since that is when recordings began and none who made recordings gave any hints of such previous powers. Knowing and understanding the scriptures requires the help of God and application but not the empowering baptism in the Spirit.What do you say about Jn 2
” 3And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine.4Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come.
5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
6And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.
7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.
8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.
9When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
10And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.
11This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.”
The Holy Spirit is a gift of God. That gift, as with all of God's gifts, is given without repentance. The life that is given man through Adam is of the breath of God giving man soul and spirit but it is not the Spirit of God because it is taken back at death and produces no fruit or the powers of the Spirit of God.
Christ gave the breath of the Spirit to the disciples in the upper room yet they were told to wait in the city till they were empowered. That empowering is in the overflowing baptism of the Spirit.
Hi m42,
You say.
“It is my understanding that you believe a person is filled with the Holy spirit/breath at Baptism. Perhaps this is your reason for insisting that Jesus was filled in the same way. this is pedicated on the fact that your initial assimption of “baptism = filling” is correct. This means that you are interpreting scripture on the basis of doctrine. One of the basic mistakes of scriptural interpretation. A doctrine which in this case is not scriptural. (I am not going to discuss the baptism=filled on this thread) “
Not so.
We must be reborn of water AND the Spirit as shown in Acts 10.
If that was so why would Lk 11 be written?” 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? “
Hi M42,
Baptism in water is not filling but immersing in the name of Jesus for forgiveness of sins.
Baptism in the Spirit is being overflowed from within by a fountain of life given by the Son of God.Jn 7
” 37In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Hi m42,
You say
“Starting a power ministry is not necessarily a sign of Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Elizabeth was filled and had no power ministry.”Not so.
Lk 1
” 40And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. “
Elizabeth immediately manifested the power of God in wisdom and word of knowledge and prophecy. What she said related to things not revealed to her by man but by God.
1Cor 12
“7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”
That is very interesting. I must admit that you make a good case. Honestly, other then for debate purposes, I really see little diference (functionally) whether Christ was filled from birth or at His baptism. I do however want to be accurate with the word and will give this further study.
Hi m42,
We are meant to follow Jesus.
If he is different then we cannot do so.
What functionality does that have?i went out of town for some time and have enjoyed catching up on this thread.
i am still wondering how Jesus was able to live without sin before His public ministry began.
music – i believe you have stated that Jesus was able to do this is b/c He had God as His Father (direct source of Holy Breath) and teacher. ie – the Spirit was already with Him. (is that how you would describe it?)
nick – i'm wondering what you or others think, b/c i'm not sure about this one.
Jesus was made like us in all ways, and if without the Holy Spirit before baptism, what explains His lack of sin from birth to 30ish? since He was made like us in all ways, and without sin, then it would seem possible that we, too, could live without sin before being filled with the Holy Spirit. yet if that were possible, for us to live without sin, then we wouldn't really need a Savior or need to be filled with the Holy Spirit. so i'm left without understanding how He could be like us in all ways, yet without sin. any input would be greatly appreciated.
Hi toteachachild.
I haven't been following this particular thread, but I know that anything that is not of faith is sin.
I guess that Yeshua did all things in faith.
The reason we sin is because of our nature. Our nature cannot please God, but we can please God when we have faith.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 08 2007,02:02) Hi m42,
We are meant to follow Jesus.
If he is different then we cannot do so.
What functionality does that have?
Very good point!hi t8,
thanks for your response.
Quote …I know that anything that is not of faith is sin. I guess that Yeshua did all things in faith.
yes, it seems reasonable that Jesus did all things in faith, since He is the Son of God.i guess what i am wondering is how was Jesus able to have this faith and always choose righteousness over sin from His early years till the time when the Spirit of God descended upon Him? i know the Lamb of God had to be spotless (without sin) to appease God and to atone for our sin. what i do not know is how Jesus was able to keep from sin?
Quote The reason we sin is because of our nature. Our nature cannot please God, but we can please God when we have faith.
do you believe that Jesus had our same human nature, a divine nature, or some combination of both human and divine? if Jesus had our same human nature, then would His faith have begun at birth to keep Him from sin? when i look at my toddler (she's 15 mos – it was my 3yr old who informed me that Jesus is not God, but the Son of God, which started me on this journey in the first place!
) i see a precious little girl who has a mind and will of her own already, but is not yet able – at least to my knowledge – to have “faith.” as Jesus was made like us, i do not understand how His faith could have begun so young so as to keep Him from sin.any help or insight that you or anyone else could give would be much appreciated. thanks.
Hi tt,
He learned at the hand of a firm disciplinarian, but loving guiding father and through suffering.
Heb 12
1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Is 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
hi nick,
thanks for your response.
good scripture reference. after reading it, i'm wondering… is chastening for any other purpose than correction? would Jesus need correction if He was without sin? what does hebrews 12:10 mean “…for our profit…?”
Quote Hebrews 2:10
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
i don't quite understand this verse, b/c it seems that Jesus only became perfect upon the cross, yet based on the whole of the scriptures i know that is not correct… any help here?also
Quote
Is 53
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
was Jesus sticken, smitten of God and afflicted always, at times, or is this referring to the cross?thanks for your help…
Hi tt,
Is 53 contrasts the real Jesus with the glorified talll handsome superman seen in traditional religion.Hi tt,
Rom10
” 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”Lk 2
” 46And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.47And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? “
One thing we do know about Jesus is that he must have fed avidly on the Word as a youth such that he was able to teach the teachers.hi nick,
thanks for that scripture… yes, Jesus was surely aquanted with the Word of God.
i guess it's hard to figure out what is not directly written in scripture. i just can't understand how He was without sin at such an early age… it leads to all sort of assumptions, which i understand may or may not be accurate. i desperately desire my beliefs to be the very Truth of God, not just what is fanciful or convenient to believe.
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