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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,07:36) You guys are cracken me up 
Nick – we DO make theories! A theory is a guess. Sometimes I read things from you, and others and I think – where did they get that? It's not in scripture, well, then, it's a theory. The theory may even be truth – but it's still a guess! Some things are not written in scripture, and being men (and women), we are used to filling in the blanks. Why do you think we have Trinitarians on this board that do not agree 100% with one another? The same is true for us so-called Unitarians. We make individual guesses along the way to forming our various theologies. It happens. As spiritual as we want to be – as close to the scriptures as we want to be – we all have done it here.
The world is founded on theories.
Couldn't agree with you more.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,07:53) His Father.
But that's not what the text actually records Not3….read it carefully….Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Gr. Hypostasis = essence/substance), and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Do you see my point now?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,17:57) Jesus was taught right from wrong. Does anyone think before he was taught to do right that he did wrong? And was that wrong in anyway a “sin?” I guess not if Jesus “knew no sin.” However, we are also taught that all wrongdoing IS SIN. Curious topic.
The only way that Jesus can be considered sinless is if you ascribe to the fact that He was God and thus anything that He does is not a sin regardless of what it is. Scriptures tell us clearly of many things that Jesus did that would be considered sin for any one else to do.Just a few examples are: his lack of respect to his mother on a number of occasions, his racial insult hurled at a non-Jew, the aggravated assaults that he committed in the Temple with a weapon, His lying about going to the feast, and his conspiracy with his followers to steal an animal, etc. etc.
Before I am accused of blasphemy, I am merely relating stories that were recorded in scriptures. The only way that these may not be considered sin is if the laws of Moses were not really God's laws after all.
Tim
Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And Again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Thou art My Son. WHEN? This day I have begotten thee.
Was the Word begotten in heaven? Rev. 3:14 says He was created.
And AGAIN I will be a Father to Him. Jesus begotten of the Father died and AGAIN was born and AGAIN called the Son of God.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.Jehovah anointed Jesus above His FELLOWS.
Jesus King of kings, LORD of lords. Equal to the Father?
Hi kenrch,
You say
“Rev. 3:14 says He was created.”
Not quite.
Rev 3
” 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”It may mean that but with no supporting verses it cannot be proven
Creation came through him.
He began it.Isaiah wrote:
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature (Gr. Hypostasis = essence/substance), and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,Do you see my point now?
*********************************
I do see your point. But my answer is still the same. Jesus is representing his Father. He is essentially representing the WHO and WHAT of his Father.
Regarding the Hebrews scripture: my bible says “being” instead of “nature.” Now, maybe you think those are the same thing, I don't know? But there is a huge debate on what these two things really mean. This is why in Phillipians every bible is quick to give a footnote that says “nature” or “in the form of” when it comes to describing Jesus' status. I don't care how many resources you use to quote words like “morphe” and so on – you can find equal amounts of sources to back both views. The fact is, we don't really know.
WHO (being) is his Father? God Almighty.
Does he qualifiy to represent him? Of course he does! He is his literal son. Jesus is a part of God. In the “being” of Jesus flows the innocent blood of God, his Father.WHAT (nature) is his Father? Spirit.
Does he qualify to represent him? Again, yes. Jesus is a life-giving spirit, and this spirit he received from his Father.So Jesus represented his Father exactly. He was his Son. He qualified to represent him like no other could – because he was part of him!
Is there anything wrong with this way of thinking?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2007,14:19) Hi kenrch,
You say
“Rev. 3:14 says He was created.”
Not quite.
Rev 3
” 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”It may mean that but with no supporting verses it cannot be proven
Creation came through him.
He began it.
Hi Nick and Krench:Perhaps Rev. 1:14 refers to the new creation?
2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.God Bless
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 19 2007,00:12) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 18 2007,17:57) Jesus was taught right from wrong. Does anyone think before he was taught to do right that he did wrong? And was that wrong in anyway a “sin?” I guess not if Jesus “knew no sin.” However, we are also taught that all wrongdoing IS SIN. Curious topic.
The only way that Jesus can be considered sinless is if you ascribe to the fact that He was God and thus anything that He does is not a sin regardless of what it is. Scriptures tell us clearly of many things that Jesus did that would be considered sin for any one else to do.Just a few examples are: his lack of respect to his mother on a number of occasions, his racial insult hurled at a non-Jew, the aggravated assaults that he committed in the Temple with a weapon, His lying about going to the feast, and his conspiracy with his followers to steal an animal, etc. etc.
Before I am accused of blasphemy, I am merely relating stories that were recorded in scriptures. The only way that these may not be considered sin is if the laws of Moses were not really God's laws after all.
Tim
Hi TimIV:God who knows the motives and the intents of the heart declared him not guilty.
Rom: 1:4
And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:As to Not3in1's question, Jesus was raised by Jewish parents who were under the law of Moses, and so I would think that they taught him just as we who are born again Christians teach our children. Certainly, there would be an age of accountability for a child.
Ephesians 6
6:1
Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
6:2
Honour thy father and mother; * (which is the first commandment with promise;)
6:3
That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.
6:4
And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition 0f the Lord.God Bless
Quote (942767 @ April 20 2007,09:26) God who knows the motives and the intents of the heart declared him not guilty.
God Bless
Hi 942767,Does that mean that if a person sins but had no motive or intent to sin in there heart, then they did not sin?
TIm
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 20 2007,10:06) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2007,09:26) God who knows the motives and the intents of the heart declared him not guilty.
God Bless
Hi 942767,Does that mean that if a person sins but had no motive or intent to sin in there heart, then they did not sin?
TIm
Hi TimVI:No, Tim if a person sins then they have sinned, but God said that Jesus did not sin. You, for example, believe that the way that he spoke to the Pharisees was sin, and I used to think that he did treat them rather roughly, but what I have learned, is that God hates hypocrisy. Jesus was acting in obedience to God when he spoke to them the way that he did.
When you look at things that Jesus did it may appear to you that it is sin, but God is the judge of whether or not it is sin. The Pharisees accused Jesus of breaking the Sabbath Law because he was healing the sick, for example, but they were wrong.
When I say that God knows the motives and intents of a persons hear, I mean that he know why something was done. You are judging by appearance by saying that Jesus sinned as were the Pharisees when they accused him of breaking the Sabbath Law.
John 7:23
If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?
7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.God Bless
Quote (942767 @ April 20 2007,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2007,14:19) Hi kenrch,
You say
“Rev. 3:14 says He was created.”
Not quite.
Rev 3
” 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”It may mean that but with no supporting verses it cannot be proven
Creation came through him.
He began it.
Hi Nick and Krench:Perhaps Rev. 1:14 refers to the new creation?
2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.God Bless
Sure could 94! He sure IS the beginning and end of this NEW creation. But then the beginning of the creation of God tends to sound a bit earlier like “the beginning” when He was the Word.How was the WORD God's begotten Son in heaven?
I see the Word became flesh but nothing about a Son becoming flesh.
I don't think while on earth we will ever know for sure.
Unless……………Anyone?
Quote (kenrch @ April 20 2007,12:05) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2007,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 19 2007,14:19) Hi kenrch,
You say
“Rev. 3:14 says He was created.”
Not quite.
Rev 3
” 14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;”It may mean that but with no supporting verses it cannot be proven
Creation came through him.
He began it.
Hi Nick and Krench:Perhaps Rev. 1:14 refers to the new creation?
2Co 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.God Bless
Sure could 94! He sure IS the beginning and end of this NEW creation. But then the beginning of the creation of God tends to sound a bit earlier like “the beginning” when He was the Word.How was the WORD God's begotten Son in heaven?
I see the Word became flesh but nothing about a Son becoming flesh.
I don't think while on earth we will ever know for sure.
Unless……………Anyone?
Hi Krench:The prophetic Word of God became flesh. Beginning in Genesis 3 and throughout the Old Testament the Word of God prophesies of the coming of Jesus. But yes, Psalm 2 Ps 2:7
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.He came down from heaven in two ways. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and second, the Word of God that he obeyed came from God. This is the spirit that was formed by God in Jesus as he learned to apply God's Word in his daily life. The origin of the Word (God's thoughts as to what he would teach his Son were with God in the beginning).
God made every thing that he made with Jesus in mind.The life that a person lives is really the person. The life that he lives defines who he really is, and so, he is God in that he is the express image of God's person.
God Bless
Hi 94,
Christ did not OBEY the Word.
He IS the Word.
Listen to John
1Jn1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2007,13:51) Hi 94,
Christ did not OBEY the Word.
He IS the Word.
Listen to John
1Jn1
” 1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;2(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) “
Hi Nick:The origin of the Word is God. Jesus states: John 7:15
And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned ?
7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
7:17
If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.John 17:7
Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
17:8
For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.John 17:17
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
17:19
And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 20 2007,15:13) Hi 94,
He is the Word. He is the truth.
He speaks the words of God.
No Nick:You are saying that he is God by that statement. The Word has come to us from God our Father through his Only Begotten Son. He has obeyed God's Word without sin even unto death on the cross.
God Bless
Hi 94,
I am saying what he said and what was said about him.
But vessels for God do the work of God.
That does not make him our God.94, So the Word was God's thoughts of His Son?
“He came down from heaven in two ways. First, he was conceived of the Holy Ghost and second, the Word of God that he obeyed came from God. This is the spirit that was formed by God in Jesus as he learned to apply God's Word in his daily life. The origin of the Word (God's thoughts as to what he would teach his Son were with God in the beginning).
God made every thing that he made with Jesus in mind”.Are thoughts created? God created the thoughts of His Son.
God planned His Son Jesus with His thoughts which was the Word?
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