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In order for Jesus to be the only begotten of God, it stands to reason that God provided the “seed.” Too bad they didn't have the capability of DNA testing back in Jesus' day. I can see it now: Mary and Joseph are anxiously waiting in the Doctor's office. Jesus is about two, playing at Joseph's feet. They are awaiting the test results that will prove who Jesus' father is. Suddenly, the Doctor opens the door and says, “Ehh-hem, um, Joseph…..what is your origin?” And in one full swoop, Joseph picks up Jesus and twirlls him around, and around while he dances and sings, “Glory to God in the highest!”
One time I remember pondering this idea of God becoming a Father (for the first time, really) and I thought, “There must be some evidence of some excitment on God's part – you know, like a new Father holding his newborn son. There had to be evidence in the scriptures somewhere – where God showed his pride or excitment about his Son being born.” And this is what I found:
Luke 2:13
Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
“Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests.”This was right after God's Son was born. A GREAT COMPANY OF THE HEAVENLY HOST!!!!!! We hand out cigars when we give birth to a son. But God sent a “great company” of the heavenly hosts. Can you imagine what that must have been like? So, there it was. That was what I was looking for. God was excited and happy at Jesus' birth. Anyway, that's how I see it.
Does God have a body? Did Jesus come from his body? I have noted that in the NIV (OT), the term “arm” means “offspring.”
Isaiah 59:16
He saw that there was no one,
he was appalled that there was no one to intercede;
so his own arm worked salvation for him,
and his own righteousness sustained him.God is spirit and yet we hear that he has feet (walking in the garden, his feet will be planted in the new heavens and earth and so on), and he also has hands (he created things and lay things bare with his hand and so on), and then we have a picture of him “sitting” on a throne, yet God is not a man. YET, we (who are men) are made in his image. Wow. This sounds a bit like we are talking out of both sides of our mouths. Is he a man or is he God? Which is it?
Colossians 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God….”Jesus was/is a man. God may be “invisible,” but this verse in Colossians tells me that God has a body. Jesus shows us the Father (who cannot be seen). He is the image of his Father. In other words, Jesus is the developed photo of a picture taken of God. Does God have a body? Did Jesus?
Hi not3,
The monogenes Son was not from men through Mary but from God alone as an image. Christ images God and we image God but our body is of dust and that of God is not. Since man is seen as inner man and outer man I suspect the likeness is as inner man as outer man is that dust.The “inner” man of Jesus versus the “outer” man of Jesus – can you separate the two, really? While on earth you cannot do that. When we are resurrected, we will be the “inner” man – made new. Our flesh will be destroyed; returning to dust. Jesus did not return to dust, however. That is an interesting point, isn't it? Hmmmm……I'm going to be pondering this all weekend.
Have a great weekend, everyone! Little League has started for us, and we are in full swing!
My son is a pitcher and first basemen. When he is up to bat the coach calls out, “Everyone back!” And my husband's sweater gets tighter and tighter from all the pride building up! We are living the “good ol' days” right now! And loving every minute of it.Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 24 2007,07:02) The “inner” man of Jesus versus the “outer” man of Jesus – can you separate the two, really? While on earth you cannot do that. When we are resurrected, we will be the “inner” man – made new. Our flesh will be destroyed; returning to dust. Jesus did not return to dust, however. That is an interesting point, isn't it? Hmmmm……I'm going to be pondering this all weekend. Have a great weekend, everyone! Little League has started for us, and we are in full swing!
My son is a pitcher and first basemen. When he is up to bat the coach calls out, “Everyone back!” And my husband's sweater gets tighter and tighter from all the pride building up! We are living the “good ol' days” right now! And loving every minute of it.
Hi not3,
Jesus was raised in his battered old dust body and since flesh cannot inherit the kingdom must have been changed into his new inperishable body when he was being taken up into heaven. We will be fitted as he was.[1Cor 15]Dan 7
“13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”
Jesus was not allowed to see decay. We will decay. David, Moses and everyone else is dust now. When we are raised, we will be given a new “body.” Interesting subject, indeed.
Hi Not3in1
Speaking of genealogies, why is it that Mark and Luke show us Jesus' genealogies through Joseph?
However, Luke shows us that Joseph has a different Father to what Matthew said. Anyway, I wonder if it was for this reason why scientists came up with DNA testing lol
But, my point is, why are they showing genealogies through Joseph…. Joseph isnt meant to be the father.
Just a thought
Hugs
Phoenixnot3in1
Quote Jesus was not allowed to see decay. We will decay. David, Moses and everyone else is dust now. When we are raised, we will be given a new “body.” Interesting subject, indeed. Very interesting. And what is more interesting is that Jesus is the God of the resurrection.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus, for He lived and was crucified and was resurrected and is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last: the title of God!
In verse18, Christ says that He has the keys of hell and of death.
Hell, translated from the word hades, which is the grave. So Christ is claiming to have the power to resurrect the dead from their graves.
See Rev 1:18
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Jesus here is saying that because He lived, died and was resurrected and is alive for evermore, He also has the power to resurrect the dead from their graves and give them eternal life.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
There is no doubt that the resurrected Christ is speaking here and He is claiming the title of God by saying “I am the first and the last.” Rev 1:17
There is no doubt that Jesus is the God of the resurrection and He will give us new glorified bodies.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
I've heard of “God the Son,” but I've never heard of, “Jesus is the God of the resurrection.” That is a new one to me! If you will especially focus on Acts, you will find that God (the Father) is indeed the God of the resurrection. Paul's testimony is also that the Father is the God of the resurrection. In fact, this is Paul's main thrust – the resurrection.
Acts 2:24
“But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death…..”
Acts 2:32
“God has raised this Jesus to life….”
Acts 3:13 in part 15
“The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus…….but God raised him from the dead.”
Acts 5:30
“The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead….”
Acts 10:40
“…but God raised him from the dead….”1 Cor.15:15
“More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.”
**Remember that for Paul, there is one God – the Father, and one Lord – Jesus Christ. This whole chapter is worth a re-read as it is on the resurrection.****There are just too many more to list. And this is a portion of Acts and one from 1 Cor. The disciples, including Paul, believed Jesus to be a man (many, many verses to support this as well), they spoke of Jesus being IMPOWERED to do the things he did, and that by God! Even Jesus told us that he couldn't do anything by himself! It is God who enables Jesus to do all that he did and does today! See below.
Philippians 3:20,21
“….the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control….”Unless, of course, you believe that God is actually Jesus (Oneness) – you cannot say that Jesus is the “God of the resurrection” when scripture clearly says that God (the Father) is.
As tempting as it may be, you cannot take one sentence or passage in Rev. (or anywhere else for that matter), and make a doctrine out of it. When you are tempted to do this (which we all are, it's human pride), let's ask ourselves this question: Is it true everywhere else? Can I prove this with multiple scriptures? Can I make a domino train with verse after verse? Or does it fall apart when other scriptures are introduced? In other words, if you want Christ to be “the God of the resurrection” – can you prove that elsewhere? What I can prove is that God gives Jesus life, and through that life – we have life. There is a difference there – do you see it? Jesus RECEIVED his life from God. Therefore, Jesus cannot be the “God of the resurrection.”
1 John 5:11
“…God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.”Reading further…
1 John 5:18
“…..the one who WAS BORN of God keeps him safe….”Jesus also received his life from God.
Regarding having the keys of death. We know that death is the last enemy that will put under Christ's feet. As we read this passage though, it's interesting that Paul puts in perspective for us – Jesus' authority – as if he had to specify what his limits were.
1 Cor. 15:24 and on partially quoted
“Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESROYED IS DEATH……Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God, himself, who put everything under Christ (WOW, WOW, WOW, WOW – did you hear this?
? GOD PUT EVERYTHING UNDER CHRIST. Jesus had it GIVEN TO HIM)….”Anyway, you all know the rest of the scripture – Jesus will hand everything back over to the Father so he can be all in all. God of the resurrection, included.
So, of course Jesus has the keys of death! But he got those keys from his Daddy. Of course Jesus has all power! But he received it from his Father – ON LOAN. He will give all the power back someday. Think about that for a moment….
CB, I think your main emphasis here is that Christ has the title, “First and last…” – but I challenge you to look at this with the whole tenor of scripture in mind, and not just the passage in Rev. Can it be explained another way? Is there other verses that point to another explaination or even conflict? I believe there is another way to look at this, and not have it conflict with other scriptures…. More on that later.
I have to say that I didn't include that little smiley face with the raised eyebrow…..which I always think looks so smug when it's used …it somehow just appeared? Must have been because I used too many questions marks?
Quote (Cult Buster @ Mar. 26 2007,07:10) not3in1 Quote Jesus was not allowed to see decay. We will decay. David, Moses and everyone else is dust now. When we are raised, we will be given a new “body.” Interesting subject, indeed. Very interesting. And what is more interesting is that Jesus is the God of the resurrection.
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus, for He lived and was crucified and was resurrected and is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last: the title of God!
In verse18, Christ says that He has the keys of hell and of death.
Hell, translated from the word hades, which is the grave. So Christ is claiming to have the power to resurrect the dead from their graves.
See Rev 1:18
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Jesus here is saying that because He lived, died and was resurrected and is alive for evermore, He also has the power to resurrect the dead from their graves and give them eternal life.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
There is no doubt that the resurrected Christ is speaking here and He is claiming the title of God by saying “I am the first and the last.” Rev 1:17
There is no doubt that Jesus is the God of the resurrection and He will give us new glorified bodies.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Hi cb,
How many gods do you have?Nick wrote:
Hi not3,
The monogenes Son was not from men through Mary but from God alone as an image. Christ images God and we image God but our body is of dust and that of God is not.***********************
Jesus is the Son of God AND the Son of Man (we are sometimes tempted to make more out of Jesus than the scriptures give us, Jesus was born of a women —– he is part of Mary as well).
Have you ever heard the saying, “That boy is the “mirror-image” of his father?” I think the same would apply to Jesus!
If Jesus died on the cross, and God did not raise him from the dead, Jesus' body WOULD HAVE returned to dust.
Hi not3,
He is from the loins of Adam through Mary.
He partook of flesh through conception in her.
He is from old, from everlasting and he was sent.
Those with spiritual eyes knew his origins.Jesus is the LAST Adam, yes.
I do believe, though, that Nick and I disagree on this point: the pre-existent Christ.
Your note saying, “He is from old/everlasting and was sent….” Yes, but just how he was “from old/everlasting” is where we differ a bit, I think. And yes, he was sent.
Some use an argument that goes something like this, “How can someone be sent if they didn't already exist?” So, because God sent his only begotten into the world….he must have somehow already existed. I disagree that Jesus existed in any way (other than the way I existed before my birth – in the apple of my father's eye), before his birth.
It's too easy to see that Christ was born. Unto us, a child was given. It's too simple, and we want to muck it up. However, if we don't accept the Kingdom like a child would – we won't get to enter. This is the rule I use: if my 7 year old daughter can understand it, and share it with a friend of hers, then THAT is the gospel, and the living truth.
Matthew 11:25, 26
“……”I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hiddenthese things fromthe wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.”Keep it simple. Keep it child-like. Keep on track.
Hi not3,
Yes first realise Christ was a man we can follow.But do not ignore that he was with God in the beginning, the firstborn son among many sons, the carpenter with the builder.
Man is inner and outer man
Rom 7
22For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
To be man all one must be is of the dust as Christ was as outer man.
Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.Inner man as vessel can differ.
2tim 2
” 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. “
Nick, thank you for your responses.
I do not believe that Jesus was the Carpenter by God's side – helping him build creation. Not in the sense that you do.
Hebrews 3:4
“For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything.”There are far too many verses to list that name God as the only creator (with his own hand, alone, and so on). You must read-into other verses to make your ideas come to life. For no where does God say that he needed a builder by his side to construct anything in the literal sense. Everything that we see, and now enjoy (and will enjoy in the future), came THROUGH Christ. Not because of anything Christ did “before hand” to make it happen for us. That is not part of scripture. You simply do not read about the person, who is Christ, in the OT. In other words, you will not find the words “Jesus” or “Christ” in the OT. Why? Because he did not exist yet!!
I find your interpretations of “inner” man and “outer” man a little loose. To think that Paul was ref'ing the “outer man” when he was telling us not to become one with a prostitute, or to use our members for ungodly things……well……it's a stretch. Of course, that's just my opinion. Same for the “inner man” verses, I'm afraid.
I'll have to give this some more thought and take a look at scripture to see what it says about these two conditions, if anything, like we are talking about. Good topic. Thanks!
Hi not3,
The monogenes son was beloved of God.
He chose to not seek equality with the God he was with.
He was sent from heaven and partook completely of our estate but became an overcomer.Was satan existing with God and in rebellion before Eden?
Were there sons of God who watched the laying of earth's foundations?
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