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Hiw,
You say
“No thanks.I dont need to see another point of view. You see its too late for me, “
I guess that explains a lot.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 21 2007,05:39) Hi Not3in1. I haven't seen you here before.
Thanks for your posts and I pray that you will be a great blessing to people you teach.
Regarding the Spirit and our spirit, my take is that we all have a spirit and God is spirit.
Jesus has a spirit and it is in spirit that we are one.So Jesus can be in the Father and the Father in him and we in them and each other.
Some people read spirit and think that it is a 3rd member of the godhead.
t8I am curious.
What is your take on these verses?
Gal 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.You say Jesus has a Spirit and the Father is Spirit.
So when one accepts Christ into his heart does he have 2 Spirits, Christ Spirit and Gods?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2007,06:20) Hiw,
You say
“No thanks.I dont need to see another point of view. You see its too late for me, “
I guess that explains a lot.
NHI knew you would pounce on it.
See I am not saying I am unteachable. But there are certain fundamentals of the faith that you dont change.
I hope you know what I mean, and that you are not open to every wind of doctrine!
Hi W,
I agree.
We should abide in what is written.
That is why we abhor trinity.
It is not written.You should listen to your master as this teaching did not come from him.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2007,06:43) Hi W,
I agree.
We should abide in what is written.
That is why we abhor trinity.
It is not written.You should listen to your master as this teaching did not come from him.
NH“Didos.”
Stop being a “Popinjay”.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2007,07:32) Hi W,
Why do you choose not to abide in the teachings of Christ?
NHStop being a “Ninnyhammer”.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 21 2007,02:51) WJ, I don't know how to work the “quote” thing and so I will just answer questions at random for you. 1. Jesus being a man. Yes, I know we disagree here. When Peter answered the “Who do you say that I am?” question, he answered with – you ARE THE SON OF the living God. When Jesus replied to him, he said, “Simon, SON OF JONAH, this has been revealed….” Both of these men recognized who the other's Father was. Because of course, we come from our Fathers and carry their name. It tells someone WHO YOU ARE. Especially back then when family was a more cohesive unit and so on. At any rate, the real question here is this: Is Jesus a Son of God the same way that Peter was the Son of Jonah? I believe there is a parallel there for a reason.
2. You mentioned John 20:31. “…..by believing you may have life in is name.” I assume you are tempted to believe that because this verse says by believing in Jesus Christ that you have life, and that somehow makes him God because only God can give life?
I would say that we have life THROUGH Jesus Christ, just as it is written in 1 Cor. 8:6. Jesus is the reason we have life. But God IS the life that we have. Because of Jesus' sacrifice, we can have life through his name. WJ, going “through” someone is not the same as the originator. It would be like having to go “through” your Supervisor to get to the “CEO.” The CEO may give you a vacation, but you receive your vacation papers through your Supervisor. Who should receive more honor, your Supervisor or the CEO? Just another way to look at this.
3. Having a “God-like” attribute is not the same as being God. Jesus is God's representative. He is God's reflection. He is other-than God. That is why Jesus can say things like – Noone is good but God (excluding himself from possibly being God).
4. Various passages like the “Thomas” passage have so many interpretations to them it's not worth getting into here. Although, I have to say, has anyone ever considered body language? In other words, picture this…..Thomas sees Christ and he falls to his feet with his hands outstretched to him he says, “My Lord…” and then because he was so happy and wanted to give thanks to God, he stretches his hands towards heaven and exclaims, “…and my God!” All I'm saying is that would certainly change things a bit for the Trinitarians out there, wouldn't it. Remember, we weren't there so we'll never know.
5. A thought or a plan can BECOME life. You were probably planned when you were conceived, for instance.
6. The “….come in the flesh….” passage really needs a little history lesson attached to it for the complete understanding. In those days, Paul knew there were sects that believed Jesus was only a spirit. Some even denied that he ate and drank (they believed he only looked like he was doing those things). So these passage is really for those folks, at the time, who were questioning whether or not Jesus was human. Which of course, is testified to from all the disciples and Paul…..Jesus was the man from Nazareth.
7. Paul was a Unitarian. 1 Cor. 8:6 is his Unitarian statement of faith. For no where did Paul ever give us the lesson that God was triune. Had it been true – you could be that Paul would have been all over that doctrine! It was his mission to present the gospel so that it would be clear and understandable. He even asks for prayer that he may do this!
8. Your ref to the Timothy passages follows what I was saying in #7 – For Paul, the only God is the Father. He says this over and over again. Jesus even tells us who the only true God is – his Father. So, it is incrediable how you can cut and paste scriptures to suit you. Stop defending your creed and read the Word as it is given to us. If God is the Father, then he is the Father. If God is the only true God, then that must mean that the FATHER is the only one and true God. If you like comparing, please compare 1 Timothy 1:17 to 1 Cor. 8:6 AND John 17:3.
Same thoughts on the other passage in Timothy that you gave. First you have to determine who the players are. You name them. Then you can follow them and keep track of them throughout a story. If you know that God is immortal, then Jesus cannot be applied to the same title (as in these passages of Timothy). God is the only one that is immortal. So we know that that passage applies to God. This is how we can keep track of who is being talked about in what passage. Otherwise, it would be a free-for-all.
9. Regarding the Romans passage ref to God's spirit and Christs' spirit – I understand your concern here, but I also want to point out that no where is there a third “spirit” mentioned. That alone should be more concerning to you, WJ – I know it was for me when I read it as a Trinitarian.
In 1 Cor. 6:17 we read: But he who unites himself with the Lord (Jesus) is one with him in spirit.
In Galations 4:6 we read: Because you are sons, God sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, the spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
In John 17:20-23 (quoted in part): My (Jesus) prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who believe…that they may be one, Father, just as you are IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also BE IN US so that the world may believe….that they may be one as we are one…..”
What do these verses share in common? Being IN someone is cleary a way of saying – you are a part of me. WJ, do you believe that you can be one with God in the same way that Jesus is one with God? This passage is saying that YOU CAN. Sadly, though, if you hold to your Trinity doctrine, this passage loses it's precious meaning. Because in your teaching, Jesus is one with God in a way that no one can experience.
There is only one Spirit and that Spirit is God. However, the spirit (no cap) of Christ is that of sonship. We can be one with him in spirit because he is the Son of God. Through (again “through” Jesus we have so much) the spirit of Jesus we can call out to the Father just like he does! We are one with the Lord because we join ourselves to him as the passages read above. Interesting point, however, there is only one Spirit, but God has a mind and so does Christ. The Trinity is starting to look like a three-headed being. Which also resembles the Hindu God, by the way.
10. 2 Cor. 13:14 “….grace of the Lord Jesus…..love of God……fellowship of the Holy Spirit….” I know these verse excite Trinitarians because it appears that all “three persons” are mentioned together. But of course we know that does not make the Trinity of God true. Not any more than having God, Jesus and the angels mentioned together makes them a triune God. But back to the thread of the spirit.
Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son (1 John 1:3), our fellowship is with each other and the Son (1 John 1:7), our fellowship is with God and with the Son (1 Cor. 1:9), and our fellowship is with the spirit (Phil 2:1). If we have accurately named the players, we will find that our fellowship is with God, God's Son, and each other. There is no other “spirit” that we have fellowship with.
About “showing you the scriptures” – I see that every one here is capable of tossing scriptures out to their own slant. In fact, if I stick around long enough, I may see the whole of scripture brought to the table! But an honest, thoughtful response is more appreciated from this member than is verse after verse used as a “told ya so” against the brother we are trying to encourage. Let's fact it, we can all bring scriptures to back our points of view. S
o, give me a paragraph of thoughtful pondering of God's word any day over lines and lines of scriptures I already know by heart!After this lengthly response to you, WJ – I believe I will let our differences rest. I do not feel the need to explain anything further. At least I have given your scriptures some thought. And I have pondered your point of view more than you realize. I grew up in the Assembly of God church and have been a Trinitarian up until 2003 (not very long ago). I am familiar with your doctrine. I pray that you will be given a gift – to see another point of view as being scripturally possible. Thank you for sharpening my study skills, and for helping me to be even more grateful for the beliefs that I have in God and in his Son, Jesus.
Hi not3in1,That was one of the most level headed, best thought out responses, that I have seen here in quite a while.
Thank you,
Tim
Nick and WJ, I feel like telling you the same thing I told my kids this morning – “I only want to hear happy things coming out of your mouths! No name-calling!” Ha! But I understand that the pride factor on these boards run high. To say that we have no pride is even prideful. Good grief. Well, at any rate, I have learned from you all – Nick, WJ and Tim, especially. And I am thanking the Lord this morning for my new brothers. We need encouragement where ever we can find it these days. Not too many believers out there. Many people are living for themselves and could care less about the things of God. The fact that you guys care very deeply about the things of God is a tremendous encouragement to my heart this morning! Praise the Lord!
I WILL PREACH THE GOSPEL WHERE EVER I GO, AND WHEN NECESSARY, I WILL USE WORDS.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2007,06:30) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 21 2007,05:39) Hi Not3in1. I haven't seen you here before.
Thanks for your posts and I pray that you will be a great blessing to people you teach.
Regarding the Spirit and our spirit, my take is that we all have a spirit and God is spirit.
Jesus has a spirit and it is in spirit that we are one.So Jesus can be in the Father and the Father in him and we in them and each other.
Some people read spirit and think that it is a 3rd member of the godhead.
t8I am curious.
What is your take on these verses?
Gal 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.You say Jesus has a Spirit and the Father is Spirit.
So when one accepts Christ into his heart does he have 2 Spirits, Christ Spirit and Gods?
Hi W,
God GAVE of His Holy Spirit to Christ and Christ GIVES of that Spirit to us.
The Holy Spirit GIVEN to Christ remains of God.
The Spirit of Christ GIVEN to us remains of Christ and God.UNITY
Eternal UNITYQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 21 2007,19:36) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Mar. 21 2007,06:30) Quote (t8 @ Mar. 21 2007,05:39) Hi Not3in1. I haven't seen you here before.
Thanks for your posts and I pray that you will be a great blessing to people you teach.
Regarding the Spirit and our spirit, my take is that we all have a spirit and God is spirit.
Jesus has a spirit and it is in spirit that we are one.So Jesus can be in the Father and the Father in him and we in them and each other.
Some people read spirit and think that it is a 3rd member of the godhead.
t8I am curious.
What is your take on these verses?
Gal 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.You say Jesus has a Spirit and the Father is Spirit.
So when one accepts Christ into his heart does he have 2 Spirits, Christ Spirit and Gods?
Hi W,
God GAVE of His Holy Spirit to Christ and Christ GIVES of that Spirit to us.
The Holy Spirit GIVEN to Christ remains of God.
The Spirit of Christ GIVEN to us remains of Christ and God.UNITY
Eternal UNITY
NHScriptures Please!
Hi W,
Understand the source.
Understand the giver.
Understand the one through whom all is given.
Understand the giftRomans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)John 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.To Not3in1.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 19 2007,14:41) Good morning all, I love the subject of pre-existence! On the heels of the question, “Who is Jesus?” there is always another question that follows, and that is, “What is Jesus?” For me, the subject of pre-existence answers both of these questions at the same time.
If Jesus is the Son of God (as we are sons and daughters of our parents), then he did not pre-exist, as I did not pre-exist my own birth.
If you believe that Jesus is somehow a “second person” of one “being” then of course, he had to pre-exist to be “incarnated.” You can see how the non-biblical vocabulary just snowballs? And how utterly confusing it can become. Because to be this, it has to be that, and to be that it had to start out as the other, and so on, and so on. Around the mulberry-God-is-three-persons bush we go!
But now this is an interesting subject. Not because it provides a platform for any one of us who has studied to bring our particular scriptures to the table (to prove our particular slant.) Because as we know, scripture can be interpreted six different ways by six different people – this board is an excellent example of that. Or because it stirs debates amongst the most celebrated Unitarians and Trinitarians – no, that would become dull very quickly. Because knowledge puffs up (and blows up, most of the time). It's an interesting subject because depending on what you believe about who and what Jesus is, you are either drawn into a loving relationship with him, or you are forced to set him apart from yourself. One view brings Jesus closer, the other view makes it impossible for you to relate to Jesus. And I mean “relate” in the sense of understanding AND in a family way (a relative).
Jesus is our brother. He is our family. We cannot over look this and still have hope of our adoption into the family of God! I have heard, in support of the Trinity, that man begets man. God begets God. But one minor detail has been glossed over, and that detail is that Jesus was born of a women. There is a combination that is not provided for in the previous equations. God/Mary begets what? A God/man? At this point we can see why Christians break off into two groups – those that believe Jesus was a man, and those that believe Jesus has a “dual” nature or that he is a God/man.
It's so typical of man to make things complicated, isn't it? We want to be masters of the universe and solve all mysteries. We want to make the biggest fires and build the tallest buildings. But what if the question of who and what Jesus is – is not complicated at all? What if we only need to look to our own Father's and Mother's and realize that we are a combination of the two? And what if we take that information and apply it to Jesus? What would we think of Jesus then? Could he have pre-existed as anything except God's plan? Just as we pre-existed as the apple of our parent's eyes? A unique combination is put together in the womb of a women that creates a human being. In other words, my son is the combination of his Father and me. He is neither all of my husband or all of me. He is a combination of us both – a unique individual. Jesus was made just like you and me. He is a combination of his Father and his Mother. And because of that, he could not have pre-existed as person of any kind.
If God wanted to incarnate (to have form) himself, he could have done it in any manner. He could have taken over the body of someone already alive. That would have been easy. Even the pagens told Paul of their belief that “…the gods have come down in human form…” so we see that incarnation is not a new belief. It has it's roots in pagen worship. God wants a family. He wants to produce after his own kind. Jesus was born and became a man because that is the most simple of human relations. We know how to love one another. We know how to make love and become pregnant. We know they joys of bringing forth a son. Family ties. When we are on our death bed, nothing else will matter but family. It's the strongest emotion and structure alive today. God planned it this way for a reason. Men would die for their families….
I know this is lengthly, and I apologize. I am not a scholar by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I attend the Bible College of the “Kitchen Table” and I doubt I will ever graduate! But I love my Father and I am so grateful for his Son, Jesus. The Trinity took away my heavenly family. It made me believe that Jesus was not really my brother – but God in human flesh. Now I know that my Father gave me a brother – one that I can look forward to following in his death and resurrection. And when I am raised, I will be adopted into the family of God. Jesus is the only biological Son of God. We are mud-men. But when we are raised, we will have full rights as sons and daughters. This is our hope. The hope Paul says we haven't been given yet – that's why it is our hope! We hope for what we don't have, yet. Come, Lord Jesus.
Enjoy your Sunday!
[/I][/I]
If Jesus is the only biological Son of God and we are mud-men as you say, then is Jesus God's son because he partook of a body made from mud?Or is he a son because he came/born from God?
When we are raised, we will have full rights as sons and daughters as you say. So are we sons of God because we have flesh or a spirit body?
This is our hope as you say. A new body, divine nature, eternal life.
So if we are sons and will inherit such things, is it possible that Yeshua also has/had these things.But for a time he emptied himself and came down to our level in a body of flesh and then was raised back up, to the glory he had before.
Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2007,00:26) Hi W,
Understand the source.
Understand the giver.
Understand the one through whom all is given.
Understand the giftRomans 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.John 3:35
The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.John 4:10
Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.John 5:26
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;John 5:27
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)John 13:3
Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;John 17:2
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.Acts 8:18
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
MHAnd Jesus the man, Messiah, born Son of God, is the gift of God to the World too.
So what is your point.
There is still only “One Spirit”, right?
t8 wrote:
If Jesus is the only biological Son of God and we are mud-men as you say, then is Jesus God's son because he partook of a body made from mud?
******************
Jesus is God's only begotten (his only biological son). He was OF GOD'S BODY (literally). Adam was a son of God. But Adam was not begotten – he was created. Adam did not have a belly-button as he did not come from a women, but from the ground, and then God breathed the breath of life into his nostrils. It is from this son of God that we are literally from. When we are born-again, we will come from Christ. Literally, we will be HIS decendants because of our adoption. See below:
Isaiah 53:10
Yet is was the LORD'S will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, ad the will of teh LORD will prosper in his hand.AND….
Hebrews 2:10,17
In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering.For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a mercifiul and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
I have mentioned this before, but for me, the pre-existence subject answers both the “who is Jesus?” and at the same time, the “what is Jesus?”
Jesus came from God's body. This is a thread thorought scripture. Sons inherit……sons. To be a son, according to the Bible, you have to either be born (from your own body), or adopted.
Look at what God told Abraham when Abraham was concerned that he had no children to leave his estate to. He was going to leave it to his servant, when God said to him:
Genesis 15:4,5
“….This man will not be your heir, BUT A SON COMING FROM YOUR OWN BODY WILL BE YOUR HEIR.” He took him outside and said, “Look up at the heavens and count the stars – if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”I ask everyone who believes in the incarnation and the pre-existence of the Son these two questions:
1. Do you believe that Jesus came from God's own body? If not, why? It is obviously important to God that a “true” heir come from your own body (or adoption). Would he want anything less for himself than he wanted for Abraham? Think about this for a while.
2. If God believes that an heir is an offspring…..how can you reconcile an incarnation? An offspring is an offspring (the combination of mother and father – a new being.) At least that is what God taught us by his chat with Abraham in Genesis.t8 wrote:
When we are raised, we will have full rights as sons and daughters as you say. So are we sons of God because we have flesh or a spirit body?
*************************************************************
We are the adopted sons of God because of WHO and WHAT Jesus is.
Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. He is the bridge, so to speak. “Through” Jesus, we can be adopted into the family of God. We are not literally from God's body, so we cannot be “full” sons and daughters. However, Jesus is from God's body AND God has given us the spirit of his Son, by which we can call God – “Abba Father.” Even though he is not our biological Father. We are born of the spirit. And this of God (not the will of a man). Praise God for such an awesome plan
t8 wrote:
So if we are sons and will inherit such things, is it possible that Yeshua also has/had these things.
***************************************************
I think your question is twofold. Having read up on you a bit, I know that you believe in a pre-existence of Jesus in some form other than just a plan or part of God. And if I am correct, you are wondering if I believe Jesus (as the pre-existent Jesus) had any of these benefits prior to his birth? And if he did, is that the “emptying” that Paul talks about in Phil. 2?
And then secondly, do I believe Jesus has these benefits NOW as a risen Jesus at God's side?
Hopefully, I have understood you and will give an appropriate response. I'll answer the last question first. Jesus certainly has been granted immortality. He is glorious at the Father's side. I believe that we are also a part of the inheritence that Christ will receive. So, while Christ is enjoying eternity and all that that has to offer, I tend to believe his greatest moment will be when you and I are awakened and join him in the air! Then he can say that he has received everything that belongs to him, and at that moment, our inheritence will be realized as well.
Now the more complicated question of – did Christ have these things (immortality) before he came to earth and “emptied” himself of these privileges?
First of all, I've never believed that you can base a faith or religion on just one passage of scripture. I believe that the passage in Philippians was never meant to reveal some doctrine of pre-existence. Paul was always careful to use examples from “every day life” and to make things “clear” and “plain” enough so that everyone could understand. Paul also loved to debate scripture and other religions. He was passionate about the Lord and about “sound doctrine.” If he meant this passage to teach anything other than the humility of Christ that we should also imitate, he would have went into much more detail. Highlighting OT scriptures to prove this incarnation business, and the thoughs of possibly Christ only coming in “guise” of a man. No, I believe you have to read-into such things for them to exist within the frame work of Philippians. So many other passages are CLEAR. So many other passages are PLAIN to understand regarding the nature, and history, and beginning of Christ. It's these scriptures that we should use as a ruler against all others.
Sex is good, would everyone agree?
Boy, what a statement, huh? Hear me out. God created sex so that we could populate the earth (in the beginning). Having sons and daughters were very important to God, and to the success of the human race. God uses many examples surrounding children. Our desires to have sex are strong. The desires are so strong in some that they would even risk their Presidency to get some. Sex is a powerful, powerful part of who we are. And family (as a result of sex) is the most cherished thing we live for. We know that children are conceived, they grow through pregnancy and then they are born. End of story.Tell me, why would God use the conception process to bring his son into the world if his son didn't follow the “normal” processes of conception and birth? That certainly would confuse us, wouldn't it? Kind of like throwing a monkey-wrench into everything that we know and understand. Would that be fair? No. It wouldn't be fair. It would be like a trick. Kind of like God saying, “Well, normally when a women gives birth you have a son that is a brand new person and never has existed before (because, indeed, none of us have pre-existed our births), but when Mary gives birth it's going to be a DIFFERENT SON, one that has already lived before.”
The beauty is that Mary had a virgin birth. That was the miracle. Not that she gave birth to a son that “somehow” existed before. That would place Jesus in a completely different category from us. And Jesus is our brother. I believe that ANY pre-exisitenc belief robs you of the gift that is Jesus.
Jesus pre-existed just like you did, t8. In the mind and hopes and dreams of your parents. It was through their hope and dream of you that they created their lives, I'm sure. They bought a home, they made sure it had a yard (for you to play in). They up'd their 401K contributions, they even bought life insurance….because of you. Right? “Through” Jesus, all things came into being. Jesus wasn't there in any way helping these things along. No. God did it all alone. But he did it with Jesus (and ultimately us) in mind.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 23 2007,20:08) t8 wrote: So if we are sons and will inherit such things, is it possible that Yeshua also has/had these things.
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I think your question is twofold. Having read up on you a bit, I know that you believe in a pre-existence of Jesus in some form other than just a plan or part of God. And if I am correct, you are wondering if I believe Jesus (as the pre-existent Jesus) had any of these benefits prior to his birth? And if he did, is that the “emptying” that Paul talks about in Phil. 2?
And then secondly, do I believe Jesus has these benefits NOW as a risen Jesus at God's side?
Hopefully, I have understood you and will give an appropriate response. I'll answer the last question first. Jesus certainly has been granted immortality. He is glorious at the Father's side. I believe that we are also a part of the inheritence that Christ will receive. So, while Christ is enjoying eternity and all that that has to offer, I tend to believe his greatest moment will be when you and I are awakened and join him in the air! Then he can say that he has received everything that belongs to him, and at that moment, our inheritence will be realized as well.
Now the more complicated question of – did Christ have these things (immortality) before he came to earth and “emptied” himself of these privileges?
First of all, I've never believed that you can base a faith or religion on just one passage of scripture. I believe that the passage in Philippians was never meant to reveal some doctrine of pre-existence. Paul was always careful to use examples from “every day life” and to make things “clear” and “plain” enough so that everyone could understand. Paul also loved to debate scripture and other religions. He was passionate about the Lord and about “sound doctrine.” If he meant this passage to teach anything other than the humility of Christ that we should also imitate, he would have went into much more detail. Highlighting OT scriptures to prove this incarnation business, and the thoughs of possibly Christ only coming in “guise” of a man. No, I believe you have to read-into such things for them to exist within the frame work of Philippians. So many other passages are CLEAR. So many other passages are PLAIN to understand regarding the nature, and history, and beginning of Christ. It's these scriptures that we should use as a ruler against all others.
Sex is good, would everyone agree?
Boy, what a statement, huh? Hear me out. God created sex so that we could populate the earth (in the beginning). Having sons and daughters were very important to God, and to the success of the human race. God uses many examples surrounding children. Our desires to have sex are strong. The desires are so strong in some that they would even risk their Presidency to get some. Sex is a powerful, powerful part of who we are. And family (as a result of sex) is the most cherished thing we live for. We know that children are conceived, they grow through pregnancy and then they are born. End of story.Tell me, why would God use the conception process to bring his son into the world if his son didn't follow the “normal” processes of conception and birth? That certainly would confuse us, wouldn't it? Kind of like throwing a monkey-wrench into everything that we know and understand. Would that be fair? No. It wouldn't be fair. It would be like a trick. Kind of like God saying, “Well, normally when a women gives birth you have a son that is a brand new person and never has existed before (because, indeed, none of us have pre-existed our births), but when Mary gives birth it's going to be a DIFFERENT SON, one that has already lived before.”
The beauty is that Mary had a virgin birth. That was the miracle. Not that she gave birth to a son that “somehow” existed before. That would place Jesus in a completely different category from us. And Jesus is our brother. I believe that ANY pre-exisitenc belief robs you of the gift that is Jesus.
Jesus pre-existed just like you did, t8. In the mind and hopes and dreams of your parents. It was through their hope and dream of you that they created their lives, I'm sure. They bought a home, they made sure it had a yard (for you to play in). They up'd their 401K contributions, they even bought life insurance….because of you. Right? “Through” Jesus, all things came into being. Jesus wasn't there in any way helping these things along. No. God did it all alone. But he did it with Jesus (and ultimately us) in mind.
Amen, well stated!God Bless
Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 23 2007,19:37) t8 wrote: When we are raised, we will have full rights as sons and daughters as you say. So are we sons of God because we have flesh or a spirit body?
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We are the adopted sons of God because of WHO and WHAT Jesus is.
Jesus came to reconcile us back to God. He is the bridge, so to speak. “Through” Jesus, we can be adopted into the family of God. We are not literally from God's body, so we cannot be “full” sons and daughters. However, Jesus is from God's body AND God has given us the spirit of his Son, by which we can call God – “Abba Father.” Even though he is not our biological Father. We are born of the spirit. And this of God (not the will of a man). Praise God for such an awesome plan
Hi not3,
Has God a body?
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