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sorry that last ones source is:
(pp. 538-539, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “Dialogue with Trypho”)
Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:45) Right and his Father El gave him Israel has his inheritence. Then Later gave him the rest of the nations of the earth as well.
The Church View: There is one being, creator, unseen, all wise, all-powerful.
The Bible View: The God of the Bible is a family of supreme spiritual beings named the Elohiym, which is headed by the omnipotent and Supreme Being in the universe named El and called the Father in the Bible. All power, love, and substance in the universe is created and controlled by this family and all the power possessed by that family originates with El. The God, who created life on this planet, and known as the God of Israel, is named Yhovah. He is the most powerful and senior family member of the Elohiym under El, and became the man called Jesus.
Hi Mercy, have had a chance to read this through….I thought I had heard it all, but this is a new one one for me! Let me say right from the outset I cannot concieve of how this could be construed as anything but blatant polytheism, in fact I can't imagine there exist a more classic case of the “error of polytheism” that Ignatius wrote of.Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. . . . To those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father . . . (p. 134, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians”)
It truely amazes me that someone could believe Yahweh is someone other than the Most High. These passage appear to soundly refute that concept.
Genesis 14:22 – Abram said to the king of Sodom, “I have sworn to the LORD (YHWH) God Most High (El Elyon), possessor of heaven and earth,
2 Samuel 22:14 – The LORD (YHWH) thundered from heaven,And the Most High (Elyon) uttered His voice.
Psalm 7:17 – I will give thanks to the LORD (YHWH) according to His righteousness And will sing praise to the name of the LORD (YHWH) Most High (Elyon).
Psalm 9:1 – I will give thanks to the LORD (YHWH) with all my heart; I will tell of all Your wonders. 2 I will be glad and exult in You; I will sing praise to Your name, O Most High (Elyon).
Psalm 21:7 For the king trusts in the LORD (YHWH), And through the loving kindness of the Most High (Elyon) he will not be shaken.
Psalm 91:9 – For you have made the LORD (YHWH), my refuge, Even the Most High (Elyon), your dwelling place.
Psalm 92:1 – It is good to give thanks to the LORD (YHWH), And to sing praises to Your name, O Most High (Elyon);
Quote El gave his son, YHWH, Israel: Deuteronomy 32:8-9
When the Most High [El Elyon] gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For the LORD's [Yahweh's] portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.
I'm in full agreement with you when you assert that Yahshua is YHWH. That is very plainly taught in scripture. But what we disagree on is the appelatives “El” and “YHWH”. I see these as two different designations for the same God, and both are applied to the Son and Father in scripture.For instance, here “El” is unambiguously applied to Yahshua:
Isaiah 9:6 – For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God (El),The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
And here YHWH is unambiguously applied to the Father of Yahshua:
Psalms 110:1 – The LORD (YHWH) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. (cf. Matthew 22:44; Mark 12:36; Acts 2:34; Hebrews 1:13)
Quote The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Septuagint prove that in the original Hebrew of Deuteronomy 32:8-9, Yahweh was portrayed as a member of the divine council under El.
So I guess the key question is – 'what' is the council of El? Is it a group of gods/elohim as you propose, or something else. Given the context (which you skipped), I would say it is simply the judges of Israel. This is especially evident in light of the use of 'edah' in passages like Numbers 26:9, 31:16, Joshua 22:17, and Psalms 1:5. Moreover, in Psalms 82:1-8 we see again see the concept of sons of God unmistakably used of Israelite judges.Quote Therefore, those who subsequently tampered with the Hebrew text were probably Yahweh-only editors who wanted to erase the original distinction between El and Yahweh and to depict Yahweh as the one and only God.
The charge of scripture tampering always raises a red flag for me. It's a serious matter as it inevitably erodes (to one degree or another) people's trust of the integrity of the scriptures. Some solid proof of the tampering should always be attendant with the implied dispersion…..Quote Professor Mark Smith of Yale University states, “The original god of Israel was El. . . . El was the original chief god of the group named Israel. . . . Similarly, Deuteronomy 32:8-9 casts Yahweh in the role of one of the sons of El.” [Mark S. Smith, The Early History of God: Yahweh and the Other Deities in Ancient Israel (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1990), 7, emphasis added.]
Most scholars understand that “El” and “YHWH” are two titles for the same God. If you have good evidence that debunks this sentiment please bring it forward.Quote Margaret Barker, of Oakbrook School in England, and member of the Society for Old Testament Study, explains:
1. Yahweh was one of the Sons of El Elyon, God Most High. In other words, he [Jesus] was described as a heavenly being. Thus the annunciation narrative has the term “Son of the Most High” (Luke 1:32) and the demoniac recognized his exorcist as “Son of the Most High God” (Mark 5:7). Jesus is not called son of Yahweh nor the son of the Lord, but he is called Lord. We also know that whoever wrote the New Testament translated the name Yahweh by Kyrios, Lord. (See, for example, the quotation from Deuteronomy 6:5: “You shall love Yahweh your God . . .” which is rendered in Luke 10:27 “You shall love the Lord [Kyrios] your God.”) This suggests that the Gospel writers, in using the terms “Lord” and “Son of God Most High,” saw Jesus as [divine] and gave him their version of the sacred name Yahweh. [Barker, The Great Angel, 4-5]
Barker goes on to say that the identification of Jesus as Yahweh happened “in the very earliest period; it was in fact, what the Christians were proclaiming when the
y said that Jesus was Lord.
He he…no argument from me here…I couldn't agree more!Quote When christ was on the cross, he blurted out “Eloi, Eloi, …”. The literal translation is NOT “My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?” Rather, it is “My El, My El, why has thou forsaken me?”
Yes, but whether it's properly “Eloi” or “El” is moot for me. Both are commonly used Biblical designations for the one true God.Quote If this view is correct, It would immediately solve the issue, however, one would have to acknowledge that priests wished to hide the truth and tampered with scripture. However, Jesus seemed to imply that this was exactly the case. Matthew 16:5-12
5When the disciples reached the other side, they had forgotten to bring any bread. 6Jesus said to them, “Watch and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 7And they began discussing it among themselves, saying, “We brought no bread.” 8But Jesus, aware of this, said, “O you of little faith, why are you discussing among yourselves the fact that you have no bread? 9Do you not yet perceive? Do you not remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 10Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many baskets you gathered? 11How is it that you fail to understand that I did not speak about bread? Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” 12Then they understood that he did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
I'm not sure which issue it resolves….monotheism is a very strong theme in scripture. Affirming the existence of a pantheon of “gods” CREATES more problems than it solves IMO.Be well.
Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,09:37) first address my previous posts, plz 
.about deuteronomy 32 and angels.
should be a page back.
Mercy, I will look at the angels post tonight, if I can.El's name is also YHWH
He gave his name to his son.
So Jesus received the name YHWH also.
Exodus 23
20 “See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him and listen to what he says. Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him.John 17
11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.I didnt make that charge of scripture tampering. I should have clarified that I was copying and pasting the work of the scholars.
However, I do believe that scripture has been tampered with. It's obvious thats why we have different manuscripts.
♦ 1 Corinthians 8: 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
♦ Psalms 89:6 For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord?
And what could be clearer than the following?
♦ Psalms 82:1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.
This verse, more than any, shows that, indeed, there are many Gods ruled by a Supreme God. The words God and gods in this verse are both taken from Elohiym, which means the mighty ones. The word mighty is taken from El, which means The Almighty, the Father. The verse is saying this:
The Mighty Ones stand in a family with The Almighty who is in the center and He guides the Mighty Ones.
· Everywhere the word God is taken from the word Elohiym it is a plural word and should be properly rendered as “Gods”. However, in some instances, the translators were forced to use the plural gods, other than the instances referring to false gods. They are presented here:
♦ Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
♦ Exodus 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
♦ Exodus 18:11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
♦ Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.
♦ Exodus 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
♦ Deuteronomy 4:28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
♦ Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:
♦ Joshua 22:22 The LORD God of gods, the LORD God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the LORD, (save us not this day,)
♦ 1 Samuel 4:8 Woe unto us! who shall deliver us out of the hand of these mighty Gods? these are the Gods that smote the Egyptians with all the plagues in the wilderness.
♦ 1 Samuel 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
♦ 1 Kings 19:2 Then Jezebel sent a messenger unto Elijah, saying, So let the gods do to me, and more also, if I make not thy life as the life of one of them by to morrow about this time.
♦ 1 Kings 20:23 And the servants of the king of Syria said unto him, Their gods are gods of the hills; therefore they were stronger than we; but let us fight against them in the plain, and surely we shall be stronger than they.
♦ 1 Chronicles 16:25 For great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised: he also is to be feared above all gods.
♦ 2 Chronicles 2:5 And the house which I build is great: for great is our God above all gods.
♦ Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
♦ Psalms 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any works like unto thy works.
♦ Psalms 95:3 For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods.
♦ Psalms 96:4 For the LORD is great, and greatly to be praised: he is to be feared above all gods.
♦ Psalms 97:9 For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
♦ Psalms 135:5 For I know that the LORD is great, and that our Lord is above all gods.
♦ Psalms 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
♦ Psalms 138:1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.
♦ Daniel 2:11 And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can shew it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh
♦ Daniel 2:47 The king answered unto Daniel, and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods, and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.
♦ Daniel 4:8 But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name was Belteshazzar, according to the name of
my God, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,
♦ Daniel 4:9 O Belteshazzar, master of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in thee, and no secret troubleth thee, tell me the visions of my dream that I have seen, and the interpretation thereof.
♦ Daniel 4:18 This dream I king Nebuchadnezzar have seen. Now thou, O Belteshazzar, declare the interpretation thereof, forasmuch as all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known unto me the interpretation: but thou art able; for the spirit of the holy gods is in thee.
♦ Daniel 5:11 There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers;
♦ Daniel 5:14 I have even heard of thee, that the spirit of the gods is in thee, and that light and understanding and excellent wisdom is found in thee.
♦ Daniel 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.Again is it really polytheism If only the Father has always existed as one First God. Any action after that is a reflection of his will. If he wants to create sons and give them positions of authority it doesnt not change the central truth of One God above all and before all.
Comparitively the concept of the trinity sounds more like polytheism.
Quote Why do unanimously the disciples of John the apostle, Polycarp and Ignatius, and the other ante-nicean fathers disagree with the trinitarians? Why do the trinitarians refuse to accept that the early fathers know what they are talking about?
These are good questions. I have asked them before. I didn't really get a responce.
On the first page of this thread, WJ makes that point that those who believed those things weren't really disciples if they didn't believe what John wrote, and then quotes the controversial John 1:1.
But of course, as Mercy adds, those who were closer to John, did believe those things, but understood them differently than trinitarians today.
So the question remains: Are trinitarians today right, or were those who were much closer to John right in their views?
Of course, there was to be an apostasy.Keeping in mind somewhere in along the way there was an apostasy, notice the following:
1. John believed something and wrote it down.
2. Those near John understood what he wrote one way–I believe in a non-trinitarian manner.
3. The trinity idea arose (or this belief was restored, I guess, as some believe).So, were those who were with John and taught by John, were they the apostasy and was that corrected later, in number 3?
Or was the apostasy the belief in the trinity part of the apostasy?Quote These are good questions. I have asked them before. I didn't really get a responce. On the first page of this thread, WJ makes that point that those who believed those things weren't really disciples if they didn't believe what John wrote, and then quotes the controversial John 1:1.
But of course, as Mercy adds, those who were closer to John, did believe those things, but understood them differently than trinitarians today.
So the question remains: Are trinitarians today right, or were those who were much closer to John right in their views?
Of course, there was to be an apostasy.Keeping in mind somewhere in along the way there was an apostasy, notice the following:
1. John believed something and wrote it down.
2. Those near John understood what he wrote one way–I believe in a non-trinitarian manner.
3. The trinity idea arose (or this belief was restored, I guess, as some believe).So, were those who were with John and taught by John, were they the apostasy and was that corrected later, in number 3?
Or was the apostasy the belief in the trinity part of the apostasy?Pure speculation. All of it. to insinuate that all of the Fathers or disciples of the Apostles did not dis-agree is at best disingenuos.
Again, we have the translation of the scriptures given to us by the early Fathers.
Many Godly men spent their lives and even died to give us the scriptures that we have.
The Holy scriptures and the greatest teacher of all, the Holy Spirit also called the Spirit of truth is available to all believers.
As I said, history and other writings is fine and interesting and may add validity to the scriptures, but when they make us deviate from the whole, then beware, the deciever lies at the door.
Jn 14:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.I Jn 2
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.If certain men think that the writings of Polycarp or Ignatious are inspried then why dont they create their own Canon.
When men deviate from the Holy Scriptures that we have and begin to doubt the inherancey of the word, the result is doubt and a faith that has no foundation.
But rest assured men will always try to destroy and mutilate the written scriptures.
David you make such a strong argument for Polycarp and Ignatious and yet the NWT contradicts their beliefs in many ways.
Its all about bringing Jesus to just being another God with the Gods or just to be man like every other except that he is more like superman, or to make him a created being meaning that he like all the rest of the created, made by God.
Jesus Is God! The Father says so.
But he is not another God. That would be Polythiesm.
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Isa 45:
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Jer 10:10
But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
All other so called Gods are false. Above should be enough.Why take the word Eloyhim and try to change the harmony of the scriptures, when this word can be used for rulers, Judges, Angels, and many other appalations.
The Lord our God is One, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Devinely and Unequelly and wonderfully united together as One.
This is scriptural. I know this infurates many because they say how can you be so sure, you could be wrong. My question is if you feel that I can not be so sure of myself, is it because maybe you are not so sure of your self?
Watch them come out of the wood work.
Oh yea, and lets reduce Jesus to being one of the created.
The The co-creator of all things, now must have come from himself. Lets swallow this camel even though there is not even a shred of evidence or even a hint of such a thing in the scriptures.
Let it be proclaimed from the housetops that Jesus is the name of above all names, and has all power and authority in heaven and earth, and by him all things consist, and he upholds all things by the word of his power, and he has been given all things in heaven and earth and under the earth, and all the FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD DWELLS IN HIM BODILY!!!WHO BUT GOD COULD BE THIS?
What mere man or created thing or created god could HOLD ALL the fulness and power of the Father? What being could possibly contain all of God?
Only that which is and always has been One with him.
JESUS!!!For this Jesus is who the eye of everyman shall see.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.What truly is the definition of polytheism?
Aries, Thor, Athena and Apollo are examples of gods.
Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Satan are examples of angels.
These two groups are both supernatural beings that are not all powerful, all knowing and eternal.
The Father called his sons gods.
Paul said that when you make offers to idols you are making offers to demons.
These are all semantics that have preconceived notions about.
We have to start with what the bible actually says not interpret scripture by definitions of words we have since created.
One all powerful God is monotheism. This one God can do anything he desires including give authority to his sons.
Quote Again, we have the translation of the scriptures given to us by the early Fathers. Many Godly men spent their lives and even died to give us the scriptures that we have.
The Holy scriptures and the greatest teacher of all, the Holy Spirit also called the Spirit of truth is available to all believers.
As I said, history and other writings is fine and interesting and may add validity to the scriptures, but when they make us deviate from the whole, then beware, the deciever lies at the door.
WJ, I think you're confused by this. Of course the Bible is our source of understanding.
But you say: “God is a trinity.”
I say: “God isn't.”
And we both think we are following scripture.Now, if the ones who lived right after Jesus understood the scriptures to indicate that God is not a trinity, and they in no uncertain terms make clear in their statements that God is not a trinity, then that says something.
Quote David you make such a strong argument for Polycarp and Ignatious and yet the NWT contradicts their beliefs in many ways.
How odd. I don't remember ever mentioning either of those on this forum…ever. Yet you say I make “such a strong statment for….”Quote Jesus Is God! The Father says so. But he is not another God. That would be Polythiesm.
And Satan is the “god of this system of things.” (2 cor 4:4) Was the Bible writer lying when he said that?
I assure you that Satan truly is the god of this world. Look around, at the world. Is he a “false god of the world.” I assure you has has great power and is a “mighty one,” a god. If he is not a god, then the Bible writer was wrong. Everything the Bible says, indicates that he is presently the “ruler of this world,” and that the “whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one,” Satan.So I guess Satan is a part of this trinity. It's no longer a trinity, when theirs 4!
Don't forget the angels. They too are “mighty ones,” gods. They are described as such in the Bible.
Are they not mighty ones? No. They truly are gods. The Bible calls them that.So, I guess the trinity has once again expanded, to include the angels.
Don't forget Israel's judges. They too were “mighty ones,” and called “gods.”
True, the Bible says there is only one “true” God. Jehovah alone is “almighty.” He alone is truly God in the fullest sence, meaning he is without limit in his “might.” He is “al mighty.” Get it?
Many are described as mighty ones, “gods” and rightfully so.
You look at the word god and assume that everyone who isn't God almighty is a false god. But the human judges weren't false gods. The angels aren't false gods. OBVIOUSLY. they are truly mighty ones, as the word implies.
bUT GOD, is almighty. You can understand the scope of that difference, can't you?
This here, si the main argument of trinitarians. And I feel it's ridiculous.
The Bible says there's only one true God. hey, Jesus is called a God. since we know he's not a false God, he m ust be part of the trinity.
Well, what of the angels? are they false Gods?
No.
They are in fact mighty ones.Clearly, something is wrong with your reasoning. You do not understand the meaning of “god.”
Jesus can be a mighty one, and angels can be mighty ones and Satan is a mighty one, but only one is ALMIGHTY, and therefore it can be said that there is only one true “mighty one.”
DONE.
I've just wrecked your main argument as far as I can tell. Please comment on what I said.
Quote All other so called Gods are false. Above should be enough. Those false gods, idols made of wood, which are often distinguished from the true God, are indeed false, they are not “mighty ones.” Ears they have, but they cannot hear, eyes they have….You know the scripture.
But saying that “all other God's are false,” would seem to be wrong.
The Bible says that the angels are “mighty ones,” and they are. Didn't one angel destroy 185,000 in one night? Isn't that an act of might?When you take Jehovah, and compare him, the Almighty, to everyone else, he is the only true God, the only one who is truly mighty.
But there are without question others who are mighty ones, “gods.” And the term rightfully fits.Quote All other so called Gods are false. Above should be enough. Why take the word Eloyhim and try to change the harmony of the scriptures, when this word can be used for rulers, Judges, Angels, and many other appalations.
You say “all other God's are false.” A second later, you say: “this wrod can be used for …angels.”
Since angels can be called gods, and since “all other God's are false, apparently, you are saying that angels are “false gods.” Is that what you are saying?
Quote Oh yea, and lets reduce Jesus to being one of the created.
Yes, how ridiculous to say that a “son” is created.
We all know that the word 'son' means someone who isn't created.
Wait, that's wrong.Col. 1:15, 16, RS: “He [Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth.”
If the Trinity doctrine is true, why are the Father and the holy spirit not also said to be the firstborn of all creation? the Bible applies this expression only to the Son. According to the customary meaning of “firstborn,” it indicates that Jesus is the eldest in Jehovah’s family of sons.Before Colossians 1:15, the expression “the firstborn of” occurs upwards of 30 times in the Bible, and in each instance that it is applied to living creatures the same meaning applies—the firstborn is part of the group. “The firstborn of Israel” is one of the sons of Israel; “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of Pharaoh’s family; “the firstborn of beast” are themselves animals. What, then, causes some to ascribe a different meaning to it at Colossians 1:15?
Is it Bible usage or is it a belief to which they already hold and for which they seek proof?Rev. 1:1; 3:14, RS: “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him . . . ‘And to the angel of the church in La-odicea write: “The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning [Greek, ar·khe′] of God’s creation.”’” (KJ, Dy, CC, and NW, as well as others, read similarly.)
This all fits in with Jesus being the “son of” Jehovah.
When ever we use the word son, we understand what it means. A 5 year old understands that word.
And just going back to what the early Christians believed, for a moment, which I know you don't want to discuss, and understandably so,
The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.
The New Catholic Encyclopedia Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.
In The Encyclopedia Americana Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.
Over and over again, references say that the trinity is a product of the fourth century. THAT IS A LONG TIME AFTER JESUS.
Yes, trinitarians will point to hints at it before. It took apostates 300 years to refine that twisted belief.
Jesus and the apostles and early disciples KNEW THE TRUTH.
Those who came right after him are moreso to be trusted than the ones who came 300 years later.The trinity is completely false, and this is so obvious, I consider the subject laughable.
I truly wish someone would discuss the holy spirit with me and show me why they believe it is worshipped as a God in scripture and is part of the trinity.
david
The main problem I feel is that they believe they would be slipping into polytheism to not acknowledge the trinity.
This is guiding there lack of honesty. Not that they are being maliciously dishonest rather self deception.
We have over the years created a definition for what polytheism and monotheism is. All indication from scripture and history are that the Jewish people of Jesus time did not share the same definition as our modern perceptions.
The truth is God is ONE.
Yet he governs through a council of gods. His sons.
Jesus is the chief angel of great council.
Jesus is YHWH because that means LORD. God put his title into his son. He gave him his name.
This creates mass confusion.Hi Mercy,
If Jesus is an angel where is this written?
If Jesus is the chief angel where is this written?
If Jesus is “I Am Who Am” then where is this written?
If I gave you my name would you become me?Mercy and David!
“Polytheism”
Belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities.So tell me. Do you believe these scriptures?
Deut 5:7
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.Exod 23:13
And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Isa 45:
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Jer 10:10
But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.Zech 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.I Cor 8
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 **But to us** [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.Matt 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.There is One True God. All elxe is false!
Nick,
The bible says that Jesus is an angel. It's just that you interpret the very same verses differently. We share the same text, just not the same interpretation. Perhaps, you can explain why the early church fathers agree with me.
Here is an excellent study on the issue:
THE NEW TESTAMENT IDENTIFICATION OF THE MESSIAH
1. The first part of this study (Who Is Jesus Christ?) examined the historical context for understanding the true identity of God's Messiah, Yeshua the Nazarene. We will begin the second part by looking at the information regarding the identity of the Messiah which begins the scriptural letter to the Messianic Jews:
HEBREWS 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed [etheken] heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; (NKJV)
This letter was primarily written to Messianic Jews to explain WHO Jesus Christ was, including his role in God's plan. The author of Hebrews (generally thought to be the apostle Paul) starts with the declaration that Yeshua was the Son of God. This Messianic identification for Yeshua is used throughout the New Testament, appearing 45 times (e.g., Matt. 8:29; 14:33; 26:63-64; 27:43; Mark 1:1; 3:11; Luke 1:35; 4:41; 22:70; John 1:34, 49; 3:18; 5:25; 9:35-37; 10:36; 11:4, 27; 19:7; 20:31; Acts 8:37; 9:20; Rom. 1:4; II Cor. 1:19; Heb. 4;14; I John 4:15; 5:5; Rev. 2:18). As the spokesman for God his Father, Yeshua was the successor to the Old Testament prophets.
The author also tells us in verse 2 that the Son was the one through whom God had created the world, and that the Father “appointed” him the heir of all things. The word translated “appointed” is a form of the Greek tithemi, which literally means “to place,” “to lay,” or “to set.” The language used here indicates that the Son's place was determined by the will of God, not by his nature.
HEBREWS 1:3 Who being the brightness [apaugasma] of His glory and the express image [charakter] of His person [hupostaseos], and upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, (NKJV)
The author goes on in verse 3 to describe Yeshua as the “brightness” of God's glory. The Greek word translated “brightness” here (apaugasma) is probably better rendered as “reflection.” This Greek word is not found anywhere else in the New Testament or the Greek translation of the Old Testament (Septuagint).
However, it is found once in the Apocrypha, in the Wisdom of Solomon. In this book (thought to have been written between 100 B.C.E. and 40 C.E.), “wisdom” is similar to the logos concept found in the writings of Philo and the Gospel of John. Hebrews 1:3 is very reminiscent of the section from this apocryphal book where this word is found. This passage describes “wisdom” in terms much like those found in Hebrews 1:
WISDOM 7:24 For wisdom is more mobile than any motion; because of her pureness she pervades and penetrates all things. 25 For she is a breath of the power of God, and a pure emanation of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nothing defiled gains entrance into her. 26 For she is a reflection [apaugasma] of eternal light, a spotless mirror of the working of God, and an image of his goodness. (RSV)
It's possible that the author of Hebrews was paraphrasing his statement in Hebrews 1:3 regarding the nature of Yeshua from this passage of intertestamental Jewish literature. The Messiah was the reflection of God's glory (“eternal light”) in the form of a human being.
This verse also states that Yeshua was the “express image” (charakter) of God's “person” (hupostaseos). According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek word charakter has the following meanings: “1) the instrument used for engraving or carving; 2) the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it, 2a) a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression, 2b) the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e., facsimile.” Here the author's use of this word tells us that Yeshua was a “precise reproduction” or “likeness” of God's “person.”
According to Friberg's Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament (ALGNT), the Greek word hupostaseos (“person”) means: “. . . the objective aspect and underlying reality behind anything, w[ith] specif[ic] m[eani]ng derived fr[om] context; (1) as an undertaking plan, project (2C 9.4); (2) as God's substantial nature real being, essence (HE 1.3); (3) as the objective reality which gives a firm guarantee and basis for confidence or assurance substance, ground of hope, foundation (HE 3.14; 11.1).”
In simple terms, Hebrews 1:3 tells us that Yeshua reflected the glory of God because he was an exact reproduction of God's nature or essence. Clearly a differentiation between Yeshua and God the Father is depicted here, with Yeshua shown to be made in the image of the Father.
HEBREWS 1:4 Having become [genomenos] so much better than the angels, as he has by inheritance obtained [kekleronomeken] a more excellent name than they. (NKJV)
The Greek verb genomenos (“having become”) indicates a change in status. Verse 4 makes it clear that Yeshua's obedient death on the cross caused an elevation of his position. This verse also tells us that Yeshua received a name greater than the angels through inheritance. Yeshua speaks of the name he received in the Gospel of John:
JOHN 17:12 “While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled. (NASU)
This name Yeshua inherited was the very name of his Father, YHVH. It was by his Father's name that Yeshua was known to the ancient Israelites, as the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah shows:
GENESIS 19:24 Then the LORD [YHVH] rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the LORD [YHVH] out of the heavens. (NKJV)
The Targums, ancient Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Tanakh (also known as the “Old Testament”), contain a wealth of information concerning the way the Jewish interpreters of late antiquity understood the Scriptures. The rendering of this verse in the Jerusalem Targum incorporates additional commentary on the events that took place and more fully explains what happened:
GENESIS 19:24 And the Word of the Lord Himself had made to descend upon the people of Sedom and Amorah showers of favour, that they might work repentance from their wicked works. But when they saw the showers of favour, they said, So, our wicked works are not manifest before Him. He turned (then), and caused to descend upon them bitumen and fire from before the Lord from the heavens. (Jerusalem Targum, translated by J.W. Etheridge)
The Jerusalem Targum clearly shows that the common Jewish understanding around the time of Christ was that the first YHVH mentioned in Genesis 19:24 was the “Word of the Lord” (the preincarnate Messiah-John 1:14), who was acting on behalf of his heavenly Father YHVH. For additional information on the activities of the Messiah before his human incarnation, see my article entitled Christ in the Old Testament.
The author knew that many Jews would identify Yeshua with the Old Testament “Angel of the LORD,” the primary messenger of God's word in ancient times. In order to demonstrate the superiority of the Messiah, he begins in verse 4 to differentiate Yeshua from the other angels (“messengers”) that serve God the Father.
HEBREWS 1:5 For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, today I have begotten you”?1 And again: “I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to Me a Son”?2 (NKJV)
In verse 5 we have the first two of several citations from the Tanakh within this passage: 1Psalm 2:7 and 2II Samuel 7:14. Psalm 2 is a messianic prophecy t
hat details God's promise to His “Anointed” (Heb. Mashiach, “Messiah”) that He will establish him in Zion as king over the entire earth. II Samuel 7 records God's promise to King David. Specifically, II Samuel 7:16 states that King David's throne would be established forever.
With these two citations, the author lays out scriptural support for Yeshua's position and destiny. He is no mere angel, but instead he is the promised Messiah, the seed of David, the one who will reign in Jerusalem on David's throne during the millennial Kingdom of God.
HEBREWS 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship him.”3 (NKJV)
The author now cites a portion of 3Deuteronomy 32:43 from the Septuagint Greek version of the Tanakh (translated in the third century B.C.E.). He relates this Scripture to the return of Yeshua, the firstborn Son of God, into the world. In doing so, he builds on the theme of messianic rulership initiated in verse 5.
DEUTERONOMY 32:43 Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him; for he will avenge the blood of his sons, and he will render vengeance, and recompense justice to his enemies, and will reward them that hate him; and the Lord shall purge the land of his people. (Brenton's LXX)
From the context of the quoted passage, we know that the author is referring to the second coming of Yeshua at the end of the age. Deuteronomy 32:43 is the last verse in a long passage of prophecy that Moses spoke to the Israelites just before his death. In this prophecy, Moses describes their fate and speaks of God's eventual judgment upon His enemies, those who have sought to destroy His chosen people. As many other Scriptures show, the one who will bring this punishment is none other than the Messiah returned to earth from heaven (cf. Rev. 19:11-21). This reference is intended to show the Messiah's position over the holy angels, who will serve as his army in the end-time destruction of God's enemies (Matt. 13:41-42).
HEBREWS 1:7 And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”4 (NKJV)
The next quote comes from 4Psalm 104:4. This citation is the first part of a comparison (completed in verses 8-9) designed to establish the qualitative difference between the holy angels who serve God and His firstborn Son, Yeshua. The next two verses point out the greater responsibility and glory of the Son:
HEBREWS 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God [theos; Heb.'elohim], is forever and ever; a scepter of righteousness is the scepter of your Kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, your God [ho theos ho theos; Heb. 'elohim 'eloheykha], has anointed you with the oil of gladness more than your companions [metochous; Heb. chavereykha].”5 (NKJV)
There is a lot of meaning in these two verses, which are a citation from 5Psalm 45:6-7. The first thing we should notice is that the author applies the title “God” specifically to Yeshua (cf. John 20:28). A thorough understanding of the meaning of the Hebrew word 'elohim is necessary to grasp why he did this.
As Psalm 82 clearly shows, the term 'elohim can refer to the angelic sons of God (Psa. 82:6) who make up the heavenly divine council. Therefore, the author's use of this title is meant to describe the power and position of the firstborn Son. As he has already shown, the Son was no regular angel, no simple messenger. Instead, the Anointed was one of the exalted 'elohim, one of the divine council God had appointed to rule the nations of the earth. Specifically, God assigned the Messiah to rule over His portion, the nation of Israel (Deu. 32:9).
The next verse of the quotation confirms this identification. Whereas the Scriptures show that the other 'elohim have acted unjustly in the administration of their duties over the nations (Psa. 82:2-7), Psalm 45:7 tells us that the firstborn Son “loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.” Because he chose his heavenly Father's ways instead of his own, he was elevated far above his “companions,” the other members of the divine council. He will be given a throne above them all by God the Father, who is his God (cf. John 20:17; Rev. 1:6).
HEBREWS 1:10 And: “You, Lord [kurie], in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but you remain; and they will all grow old like a garment; 12 like a cloak you will fold them up, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will not fail.”6 (NKJV)
The next quotation is from 6Psalm 102:25-27, again from the Septuagint translation. Here the author expands upon the Messiah's role to show his part in the creation of the universe. When it's understood that Psalm 102:25-27 is speaking of the Messiah instead of the Father, we again see confirmation of Yeshua's central role as the instrument through which God created all things (cf. Pro. 8:30; John 1:3, 10; I Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:2).
HEBREWS 1:13 But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies your footstool”?7 14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? (NKJV)
The author of Hebrews finishes out his exaltation of the Messiah by quoting from 7Psalm 110:1. Unlike the angels that serve under him, Yeshua is shown to be seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven, waiting for the time when God will give him victory over his enemies (all those who resist God's will). As a final counterpoint to his argument, the author's rhetorical question in verse 14 again points out the superiority of Yeshua to the angelic host.
The first chapter of Hebrews is used by the author to demonstrate that the Messiah, who appeared as the Angel of the LORD before taking the form of a human, was much more than an Old Testament spiritual messenger from the Father. He was the workman through which God created all things. He was the promised seed of David, the Anointed one who would rule the earth from Jerusalem for a thousand years as God's representative. He was a member of the divine council who ruled over Israel, and because of his faithfulness, would rule over all nations.
Now let's skip down to Hebrews 2:9, where the author continues his explanation of the Messiah's identity:
HEBREWS 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that he, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone. 10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect [teleiosai] through sufferings. (NKJV)
Here the author begins to explain why the divine firstborn Son of God had to become a mortal man. In verse 9, he shows that Yeshua allowed himself to be made “a little lower than the (same) angels” the author had proclaimed him to be above in chapter 1. The purpose for this is not totally understood by most believers, even though it is clearly stated: Yeshua suffered death that he might “taste death for everyone.”
Verse 10 contains an amazing piece of information about the nature of the Messiah. We are told that the Father, in order to bring many sons to glory, had “to make the captain of their salvation (Yeshua) PERFECT through sufferings.” In the context of this passage, the Greek verb teleiosai would be better translated “complete.” In Luke 13:32, a form of this same word is used:
LUKE 13:31 On that very day some Pharisees came, saying to him, “Get out and depart from here, for Herod wants to kill you.” 32 And he said to them, “Go, tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected [teleioumai].' ” (NKJV)
The primary suffering of t
he Messiah was his final agony on the cross. However, his total experience as a human being also qualified as suffering. It was the physical and mental distress, as well as the corresponding temptations that he endured, that “perfected” Yeshua.
As the divine spirit being called the “Angel of the LORD,” Yeshua led the Israelites out of Egypt during the Exodus and guided them through their 40 years of wilderness wanderings (Jdg. 2:1). During that time, he saw God's chosen people at their worst. In order to truly comprehend how people could behave the way that the Israelites did, he had to be subjected to the same temptations and sufferings that humans had to endure. Only this experience would allow him to be “completed” and become an empathetic High Priest to God's people (Heb. 2:17; 4:15).
HEBREWS 2:11 For both he who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one [ex henos pantes], for which reason he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying: “I will declare Your name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”8 13 And again: “I will put my trust in Him.”9 And again: “Here am I and the children whom God has given me.”10 14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, he himself likewise shared in the same, that through death he might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (NKJV)
In verse 11, the author tells us that Yeshua and those he is in the process of sanctifying (“setting apart for a holy purpose”) are “all of one.” By the concluding statement that Yeshua “is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN,” we know that the first part of the verse is referring to Yeshua and those he is sanctifying being “all of one” FAMILY, with God being the Father of both (cf. Eph. 3:14-15).
Verse 12 begins another series of quotations from the Tanakh with a citation of 8Psalm 22:22. Psalm 22 is a messianic psalm that prophetically records some of the actual words later spoken by Yeshua (cf. Psa. 22:1).
The next two quotes come from the last part of 9Isaiah 8:17 and first part of 10Isaiah 8:18. This too is a messianic prophecy; immediately preceding this passage is the declaration that the Messiah would be “a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense to both the houses of Israel” (Isa. 8:14; cf. Rom. 9:32-33; I Pet. 2:7-8).
HEBREWS 2:16 For indeed he does not give aid to angels, but he does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things he had to be made like his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself has suffered, being tempted, he is able to aid those who are tempted. (NKJV)
Continuing on, the author states in verse 16 that the Messiah became human in order to provide help to the descendants of Abraham. Verse 17 states that Yeshua's death was a means of providing forgiveness for the sins of the people, that they might be reconciled to God. This verse reiterates that Yeshua had to be made like his human brethren in order to be a merciful and faithful High Priest for God's people. In verse 18, we are told that Yeshua had to suffer and endure temptation as a man that he might (as our High Priest) be able to assist those who are suffering and being tempted.
Verse 18 is also a clear indication of the distinction between God the Father and Yeshua. Yeshua was tempted while in the flesh so that he might understand how temptation affects humans. However, we are clearly told that God the Father CANNOT be tempted:
JAMES 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. (NKJV)
Further on in the book of Hebrews, the author again stresses the fact that Yeshua was tempted by evil in the same way all mankind is, but that he was without sin:
HEBREWS 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. (NIV)
Yeshua's status as the Son of God and his human temptation is confirmed numerous times in the Gospel accounts:
MARK 1:13 And He was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan, and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered to Him. (NKJV)
MATTHEW 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, afterward he was hungry. 3 Now when the tempter came to him, he said, “If you are the Son of God, command that these stones become bread.” (NKJV)
MATTHEW 4:5 Then the devil took him up into the holy city, set him on the pinnacle of the temple, 6 and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down. For it is written: 'He shall give His angels charge over you,' and, 'In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.' ” 7 Jesus said to him, “It is written again, 'You shall not tempt the LORD your God.' ” (NKJV)
Notice that the devil's entire focus of temptation consisted of attempting to goad Yeshua into proving he was “the Son of God.” Satan was very familiar with the Son in his role as the Angel of the LORD, as the Scriptures show (Zec. 3:1-10). The devil was, in effect, asking Yeshua to prove that he was the divine Son of God (Pro. 30:4) come down to earth in human form.
Going back to Hebrews 3, we see a statement in verse 2 that is absolutely astounding when properly understood. As you read the following statements about the Messiah, keep in mind that the context of this letter is an explanation of WHO the Messiah truly is:
HEBREWS 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly vocation consider the apostle and high priest of our confession, Jesus: 2 Who is faithful to Him that made [poiesanti] him, as was also Moses in all His house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of greater glory than Moses, by so much as he that hath built the house hath greater honour than the house. 4 For every house is built by some man: but He that created all things is God. (DRA)
The Greek word translated “made” in verse 2 is poiesanti. This verb participle is a form of the Greek word poieo, which according to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words means “to do” or “to make.' It “is used in the latter sense (a) of constructing or producing anything, of the creative acts of God” (p. 386).
A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BAGD) states that this word is used “of God's creative activity” to mean “make, manufacture, produce τtι? someth[ing].” Regarding Hebrews 3:2, BAGD goes on to say that poiesanti is used “of the relation of Jesus to God” (p. 680).
Most English translations render poiesanti in Hebrews 3:2 as “appointed.” But the word literally means “made,” referring in this instance to the creative act of God in the origin of the Messiah. Let's look at Revelation 14:7 to see how poiesanti is used elsewhere in the Scriptures:
REVELATION 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made [poiesanti] heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.” (NKJV)
Based on the definition of this word, as well as its biblical usage elsewhere, it's obvious that poiesanti should be translated “who made” in Hebrews 3:2 (as it is in the 1899 Douay-Rheims American translation), not “who appointed” (as it is in most other English translations). Both Moses and Yeshua were faithful to God the Father, who “made” all things (v. 4).
HEBREWS 3:5 Moses was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. 6 But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast. (NIV)
The author goes on in verses 4 an
d 5 to illustrate the pre-eminence of Messiah over Moses (which he first mentioned in v. 3). Moses served in God's house, but Yeshua the firstborn Son has been given rulership over God's house.
Now let's move on to the 5th chapter of Hebrews, where the author begins explaining the priesthood of Messiah:
HEBREWS 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed for men in things pertaining to God, that he may offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can have compassion on those who are ignorant and going astray, since he himself is also subject to weakness. 3 Because of this he is required as for the people, so also for himself, to offer sacrifices for sins. 4 And no man takes this honor to himself, but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So also Christ did not glorify himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to him: “You are My Son, today I have begotten you.”11 (NKJV)
This passage stresses the Father's role in determining the duties assigned to the Messiah. Yeshua did not make himself the High Priest; rather, the Father designated him as such. In Hebrews 5:5 we have a repeat of the citation from 11Psalm 2:7 that the author used earlier (Heb. 1:5). Here the emphasis is on the sonship of the Messiah as the reason for his elevation to High Priest.
HEBREWS 5:6 As He also says in another place: “You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek”;12 7 who, in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save him from death, and was heard because of his godly fear, 8 though he was a Son, yet he learned [emathen] obedience by the things which he suffered. 9 And having been perfected [teleiotheis], he became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey him, 10 called by God as High Priest “according to the order of Melchizedek,”12 (NKJV)
12Psalm 110:4, quoted twice in this passage (vv. 6, 10), serves as an introduction to the exalted position of the Messiah. Contrary to the commonly accepted teaching that Jesus was “fully man” and “fully God” while here on earth, the author tells us that during “the days of his flesh” (v. 7), it was ONLY through the Father that Yeshua obtained the ability to accomplish his mission. God was the one who provided Yeshua the strength to overcome this world, and He did so because of Yeshua's “godly fear” (which manifested itself as total obedience). The point is very clear — even though Yeshua was the Son of God, he learned obedience by the things he suffered as a human.
According to ALGNT, the Greek verb emathen, translated “learned” in verse 8, has “a basic m[eani]ng of directing one's mind to someth[ing] and producing an external effect learn; (1) as learning through instruction be taught, learn from someone (JN 7.15); (2) as learning through inquiry ascertain, discover, find out (AC 23.27); (3) as learning through practice or experience come to know, come to realize (PH 4.11; HE 5.8); (4) as achieving comprehension understand, learn (RV 14.3)”. If Yeshua had already been a perfect divine being before (and during) his incarnation, he could not have learned obedience as a result of the adversity he faced. “Having been perfected” as a direct result of his experiences as a human, we are told that Yeshua became the “author of eternal salvation to all who obey him” (v. 9) and now serves as our heavenly High Priest (v. 10).
Now let's examine one more related passage from the 7th chapter of Hebrews:
HEBREWS 7:26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for his own sins and then for the people's, for this he did once for all when he offered up himself. 28 For the law appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath, which came after the law, appoints the Son who has been perfected [teteleiomenon] forever. (NKJV)
The 7th chapter of Hebrews uses the example of Melchizedek to show how Yeshua (from the tribe of Judah) could serve as High Priest when the Law specifies that the sons of Aaron (from the tribe of Levi) would hold that position. Once again, the author of Hebrews proclaims that we have a high priest in Yeshua who has been “perfected.” In the process of living a totally obedient life while enduring human temptation, Yeshua's understanding of mankind's plight was “completed.” By this experience, he qualified to be God's High Priest, just as Melchizedek had been in the days of Abram.
Now let's examine some other statements about the nature of the Messiah from the New Testament. We'll begin in Paul's letter to the Philippian congregation:
PHILIPPIANS 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form [morphe] of God, did not regard equality with [isa] God a thing to be grasped [harpagmon], 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form [morphen] of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also [dio kai], God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (NASU)
When viewed in the proper context, this is an illuminating passage of Scripture. Paul tells us that before his incarnation, Yeshua existed in the same form (morphe) as God the Father. Yeshua himself said that God is spirit (John 4:24); therefore, Paul's statement indicates that Yeshua initially existed as a spirit being also. The two uses of the Greek root word morphe in this passage (vv. 6, 7) contrast God's existence as spirit and man's existence as flesh and blood.
Paul goes on to show that Yeshua was willing to give up his spiritual state of being. Many English translations render the Greek noun harpagmon (“to be grasped”) as “robbery.” However, BAGD states that this translation “. . . is next to impossible in Phil 2:6 . . .” (p. 108). According to ALGNT, harpagmon (found only once in the New Testament) probably means “. . . not forcefully retaining something for one's own advantage something not to be held onto . . .”
Yeshua did not consider being “equal to” (Gr. isa) God in form something that he should selfishly hold on to. Rather, he humbly emptied himself of divinity and became flesh and blood that he might fulfill the Father's will. Living an obedient life as a human here on the earth, Yeshua gave himself as our sacrifice on the cross, that our sins might be forgiven through him.
The Greek phrase dio kai that begins verse 9 is used to indicate a self-evident inference. Paul tells us that because of his humble, unselfish act, God the Father highly exalted Yeshua and bestowed on him a name above all names. Not because of his nature, but rather due to his obedience, God will cause “every knee to bow” to Yeshua and “every tongue will confess” that he is Lord.
Verses 10 and 11 are a paraphrase of Isaiah 45:23:
ISAIAH 45:22 “Look to Me, and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. (NKJV)
Based on the statement in Isaiah 45:22 that “I am God, and there is no other,” some try to make the case that Yeshua and God are one and the same being (in either a “Trinitarian” or “Oneness” sense). This is a misinterpretation of the text, as a close examination of Paul's concluding statement in verse 11 plainly shows. By every knee bowing to Yeshua the Messiah and every tongue taking an oath that he is Lord, Paul tells us that God the Father will be gl
orified. There is only one true God, the Father (John 17:3), as Isaiah 45:22 states. However, every knee will in effect be bowing to Him when they bow to His Anointed One, Yeshua the Messiah.
Now let's examine another passage from Paul, this one from his initial letter to the Corinthian assembly. To make the passage easier to understand, I've replaced “him” and “his” with the one being spoken of:
I CORINTHIANS 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then comes the end, when [Christ] delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when [God] puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For [Christ] must reign till [God] has put all enemies under [Christ's] feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. (NKJV)
This Scripture speaks of the delegation of God's authority to the Messiah as a means of achieving God's will. We see that the Messiah's rule will be completed when all God's enemies have been destroyed. After the destruction of the final enemy, death, Yeshua will return the reconciled kingdom to his Father, just as a craftsman hands over his finished product to the architect of the work.
I CORINTHIANS 15:27 For “[God] has put all things under [Christ's] feet.”13 But when He says “all things are put under [Christ],” it is evident that [God] who put all things under [Christ] is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to [God], then the Son himself will also be subject to [God] who put all things under [Christ], that God may be all in all. (NKJV)
This passage specifically shows that, contrary to Trinitarian doctrine, Yeshua will always be subordinate to the Father (not co-equal). Verse 27 starts with a citation of 13Psalm 8:6. This is an interesting messianic psalm, and one that most don't fully grasp the significance of. Here is the pertinent section of this psalm:
PSALM 8:3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained, 4 what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him? 5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and You have crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet, (NKJV)
In the Gospels, Yeshua is referred to as the “Son of Man” 83 times. The mention of the “son of man” in Psalm 8:4, combined with the use of this prophecy by Paul to specifically refer to Yeshua (as well as a similar usage in Hebrews 2), leaves little doubt that this passage is a messianic prophecy. The “son of man” spoken of in Psalm 8:4 is plainly the Messiah, who will have all things put under his feet by God the Father (I Cor. 15:25).
I Corinthians 15:27 also specifically states that God the Father has placed all things under Yeshua with the exception of Himself. Clear distinction is made here between the heavenly Father and His firstborn Son, Yeshua the Messiah. The Father has currently delegated all things to His Son, that Yeshua may reconcile them to Him (Col. 1:20). However, when the reconciliation is finally accomplished, we see that the entire creation, including the Son, will be subject to God (v. 28).
This passage isn't the only place where Paul shows the superior position of the Father in relation to the Son. Earlier in I Corinthians 11, Paul documented the line of authority from mankind to God:
I CORINTHIANS 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. (NKJV)
Once again we see that God the Father is over Yeshua in authority. Contrary to the doctrine of the Trinity, they are not co-equal.
Additionally, the Scriptures show that only God the Father is omniscient (“all-knowing”):
MARK 13:32 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Take heed, watch and pray; for you do not know when the time is.” (NKJV)
This declaration shows that the Messiah himself acknowledged only the Father knew the timing of his second coming. Yeshua's statement confirms the passages we reviewed from Hebrews earlier which show that Yeshua was “completed” by his human experience. This verification also supports several passages from the Tanakh which show that the preincarnate Messiah did not know all things (Gen. 18:21; 22:12).
In the final book of the Bible, Yeshua uses a title for himself that is very enlightening, when placed in the proper context:
REVELATION 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” (NIV)
Here we see that Yeshua tells us he is the “Morning Star.” Peter confirms this identification of Messiah in his second epistle:
II PETER 1:17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; (NKJV)
This title is not just a poetic description of the Messiah. It identifies his status, as a passage from Job 38 shows:
JOB 38:4 ” Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (NKJV)
In this Scripture, “morning stars” are parallel to and synonymous with the angelic “sons of God” (Gen. 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1). By his use of the title “Morning Star,” Yeshua establishes that he was one of those sons of God present at the creation of the world. As other Scriptures show, he was the firstborn Son of God through whom the Eternal Father created the world.
Conclusion
When viewed with an open mind, the available historical and scriptural evidence strongly suggests that early believers had a much different understanding of the origin and nature of Yeshua than we do today. In contrast to modern Judaism, first-century Jews who accepted Yeshua as the prophesied Messiah had no trouble assigning to him the status of a second divine spirit being who was subordinate to the Most High God. He was understood to be the “Angel of the LORD” who had led Israel out of Egypt. In contrast to modern Christianity, early believers understood that the Messiah was the “firstborn of every creature” (Col. 1:15), the “only begotten” Son of God. He was the wisdom of God (I Cor. 1:24), begotten before all things to be the workman who helped the Father create the world (Pro. 8:22-31). He was the divine Word (Logos), who was with God the Father in the beginning and was also 'elohim (“God”-John 1:1).Quote Hi Mercy,
If Jesus is an angel where is this written?
If Jesus is the chief angel where is this written?
If Jesus is “I Am Who Am” then where is this written?
If I gave you my name would you become me?NH
Welcome back!
Hope you are well.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 07 2007,07:20) Mercy and David! “Polytheism”
Belief in several deities: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deities.So tell me. Do you believe these scriptures?
Deut 5:7
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.Exod 23:13
And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:Isa 45:
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.Jer 10:10
But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.Zech 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.I Cor 8
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 **But to us** [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.Matt 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.There is One True God. All elxe is false!
I agree with everything you are saying.You simply just don't understand that God giving his sons authority and then giving them the title “gods” does not qualify as polytheism. Talk to God about why he did this. Ask him why he governs via a council.
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