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Mercy
Polycarp
Saint Polycarp of Smyrna (martyred in his 87th year, ca. 155–167) was a Christian bishop of Smyrna (now İzmir in Turkey) in the second century. He died a martyr when he was stabbed after an attempt to burn him at the stake failed. Polycarp is recognized as a saint in both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. It is recorded that “He had been a disciple of John.” The options for this John are e.g. John the son of Zebedee traditionally viewed as the author of the Fourth Gospel, or John the Presbyter (Lake 1912). Traditional advocates follow Eusebius in insisting that the apostolic connection of Papius was with John the Evangelist, and that the author of the Gospel of John was the Apostle. Polycarp does not quote from the Gospel of John in his surviving letter, which may be an indication that whichever John he knew was not the author of that gospel, or that the gospel was not finished during Polycarp's discipleship with John.
Its seems questionable here that he was a disciple of John the beloved!
But here is a quote from Polycarp to the Philiipians…
Polycarp 12:2
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal
High-priest Himself the [Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in
faith and truth, and in all gentleness and in all avoidance of wrath
and in forbearance and long suffering and in patient endurance and in
purity; and may He grant unto you a lot and portion among His saints,
and to us with you, and to all that are under heaven, who shall
believe on our Lord and God Jesus Christ and on His Father that
raised him from the dead.
So is he a Trinitarian or not?
The confusion comes from the fact that Jesus is God.
People assume that they understand what Jewish Monotheism was.
The Most High God (El) had sons. Jesus is one of them. God them declared them gods.
Jesus the firstborn and preeminent son came as messiah and inherited the whole earth. No longer just israel. The other sons of God (the powers, principilaties, wickedness in high places) have had their dominions cut down. They had Fallen.
Polycarp was not a trinitarian.
I dont have a handy quote from Polycarp. But I do from Ignatius the other apostle of John.
Nor is He a mere man, by whom and in whom all things were made; for “all things were made by Him.” “When He made the heaven, I was present with Him; and I was there with Him, forming [the world along with Him], and He rejoiced in me daily.” And how could a mere man be addressed in such words as these: “Sit Thou at My right hand?” And how, again, could such an one declare: “Before Abraham was, I am?” And, “Glorify Me with Thy glory which I had before the world was?” What man could ever say, “I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me?” And of what man could it be said, “He was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not?” How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me.” (p. 213, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians”)
. . . But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We also have as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” (pp. 110-111, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”)
. . . For the Son of God, who was begotten before time began, and established all things according to the will of the Father, He was conceived in the womb of Mary, according to the appointment of God, of the seed of David, and by the Holy Ghost. (p. 120, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”)
. . . Do ye all come together in common, and individually, through grace, in one faith of God the Father, and of Jesus Christ His only-begotten Son, and “the first-born of every creature,” but of the seed of David according to the flesh . . . (p. 122, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”)
. . . Jesus Christ. He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever . . . (p. 129, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers,”The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians”)
. . . Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. . . . To those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father . . . (p. 134, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians”)
. . . One of the ancients gives us this advice, “Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil.” For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power. (p. 142, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians”)
. . . Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man . . . (p. 165, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians”)
. . . Being fully persuaded, in very truth, with respect to our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary . . . (p. 175, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyraeans”)
And [know ye, moreover], that He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things. For says the apostle, “There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.” And again, “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus;” and, “By Him were all things created that are in heaven, and on earth, visible and invisible; and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.” (p. 212, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians”)
Quote The confusion comes from the fact that Jesus is God. People assume that they understand what Jewish Monotheism was.
The Most High God (El) had sons. Jesus is one of them. God them declared them gods.
Jesus the firstborn and preeminent son came as messiah and inherited the whole earth. No longer just israel. The other sons of God (the powers, principilaties, wickedness in high places) have had their dominions cut down. They had Fallen.
MercySo how does this disagree with trinitarianism?
God is the only being who always existed.
Jesus and the other sons of God were created.
God appointed his sons as gods.
God then gave the whole earth to his firstborn son Jesus.
Jesus is not equal to the Father but second.
The Holy Spirit is not a seperate person. Rather the spirit of the invisible God that moves and opporates with power directly and/or through prophets and saints.
That is not trinitarianism.
Quote God is the only being who always existed. Jesus and the other sons of God were created.
God appointed his sons as gods.
God then gave the whole earth to his firstborn son Jesus.
Jesus is not equal to the Father but second.
The Holy Spirit is not a seperate person. Rather the spirit of the invisible God that moves and opporates with power directly and/or through prophets and saints.
That is not trinitarianism.
Mercy
Sorry this is where we part.
There is no scriptural evidence that Jesus had a beginning.
Furthermore, Jesus is the co-creator of “All things” now if he created all things and by him all things consisted and had their origen, then that would not include himself. All things. He didnt create himself.
And there is Creator and created.
This is scriptural. Please if you can show me where Im wrong.
Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,07:51) God is the only being who always existed. Jesus and the other sons of God were created.
God appointed his sons as gods.
God then gave the whole earth to his firstborn son Jesus.
Jesus is not equal to the Father but second.
The Holy Spirit is not a seperate person. Rather the spirit of the invisible God that moves and opporates with power directly and/or through prophets and saints.
That is not trinitarianism.
Jesus was created? Where in the Bible would we find this information?This is a perfect example of what I was talking about.
I will show you this verse. You probably have read it before and have a theological stance already in place on it’s interpretation.
However, the early church fathers disagree with your interpretation if that be the case.
Collosians 1:15
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.The literal interpretation is that Jesus was the first being ever born. Would make sense since he is the son of God and was begotten.
The early fathers all agree that Jesus was the first creative act by God. Then God created everything else through Jesus the divine architect at his side.
You may disagree with this and that goes to show my point. You can say that the verse symbolically represents Christ’s right to rule as King.
The church fathers are in a far better position of understanding that verse.
Jesus still created everything except himself. This doesn’t change that.
Is 1:18,
Care to address my very first post directly?
I truly am interested in knowing why people reject their opinions especially considering that the issue is not that we don't use the same bibles but rather how we interpret them.
We know the angels existed prior to the creation of the world because they sang with Joy when God laid its foundations. Jesus was part of the whole process of creating the earth and everything in it.
Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,07:42) Nor is He a mere man, by whom and in whom all things were made; for “all things were made by Him.” “When He made the heaven, I was present with Him; and I was there with Him, forming [the world along with Him], and He rejoiced in me daily.” And how could a mere man be addressed in such words as these: “Sit Thou at My right hand?” And how, again, could such an one declare: “Before Abraham was, I am?” And, “Glorify Me with Thy glory which I had before the world was?” What man could ever say, “I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me?” And of what man could it be said, “He was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not?” How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me.” (p. 213, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians”) . . . But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We also have as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” (pp. 110-111, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”)
. . . For the Son of God, who was begotten before time began, and established all things according to the will of the Father, He was conceived in the womb of Mary, according to the appointment of God, of the seed of David, and by the Holy Ghost. (p. 120, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”)
. . . Do ye all come together in common, and individually, through grace, in one faith of God the Father, and of Jesus Christ His only-begotten Son, and “the first-born of every creature,” but of the seed of David according to the flesh . . . (p. 122, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”)
. . . Jesus Christ. He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever . . . (p. 129, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers,”The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians”)
. . . Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. . . . To those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father . . . (p. 134, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians”)
. . . One of the ancients gives us this advice, “Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil.” For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power. (p. 142, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians”)
. . . Since, also, there is but one unbegotten Being, God, even the Father; and one only-begotten Son, God, the Word and man . . . (p. 165, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philadelphians”)
. . . Being fully persuaded, in very truth, with respect to our Lord Jesus Christ, that He was the Son of God, “the first-born of every creature,” God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and was of the seed of David according to the flesh, by the Virgin Mary . . . (p. 175, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyraeans”)
And [know ye, moreover], that He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,” and God the Word, who also created all things. For says the apostle, “There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.” And again, “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus;” and, “By Him were all things created that are in heaven, and on earth, visible and invisible; and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.” (p. 212, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians”)
He he….even though you have selectively quoted Polycarp here the writings STILL strongly affirm the deity of Yahshua.
Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:16) We know the angels existed prior to the creation of the world because they sang with Joy when God laid its foundations. Jesus was part of the whole process of creating the earth and everything in it.
Is this your evidence proving that the Logos was created??You said:
Furthermore, Jesus is the co-creator of “All things” now if he created all things and by him all things consisted and had their origen, then that would not include himself. All things. He didnt create himself.
Logically God created all things but did not create himself.
Now, you interpret that to mean Jesus must have always existed himself, just like God.
However, if you have that hard of a stance on “all things” then you would have to wonder how God created himself since he created all things.
See how all doesnt necessarily mean all. But rather means all other things.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 06 2007,08:21) Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:16) We know the angels existed prior to the creation of the world because they sang with Joy when God laid its foundations. Jesus was part of the whole process of creating the earth and everything in it.
Is this your evidence proving that the Logos was created??
No, my evidence is a couple posts up. I am posting to fast for you i think.You said:
He he….even though you have selectively quoted Polycarp here the writings STILL strongly affirm the deity of Yahshua
Thats because I also strongly affirm the deity of Yahshua
Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:22) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 06 2007,08:21) Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:16) We know the angels existed prior to the creation of the world because they sang with Joy when God laid its foundations. Jesus was part of the whole process of creating the earth and everything in it.
Is this your evidence proving that the Logos was created??
No, my evidence is a couple posts up. I am posting to fast for you i think.
Tell you what, you re-submit what you consider to be your absolute BEST evidence that the Logos is a created being and i'll address this question (from your first post in this thread) for you:Quote Why do unanimously the disciples of John the apostle, Polycarp and Ignatius, and the other ante-nicean fathers disagree with the trinitarians? Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:24) You said: He he….even though you have selectively quoted Polycarp here the writings STILL strongly affirm the deity of Yahshua
Thats because I also strongly affirm the deity of Yahshua
So for you there is more than one God? Isn't that, by definition, polytheism Mercy?God made his sons gods.
What is the definition of Polytheism? Multiple gods.
Then yes it is polytheism.
But what if Jewish Monotheism meant that Only one God has ever truly existed for all time? The Most High God.
If a monothiestic God made other gods would it then become polytheism?
Its what the bible said happened.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 06 2007,08:26) Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:22) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 06 2007,08:21) Quote (Mercy @ Jan. 06 2007,08:16) We know the angels existed prior to the creation of the world because they sang with Joy when God laid its foundations. Jesus was part of the whole process of creating the earth and everything in it.
Is this your evidence proving that the Logos was created??
No, my evidence is a couple posts up. I am posting to fast for you i think.
Tell you what, you re-submit what you consider to be your absolute BEST evidence that the Logos is a created being and i'll address this question (from your first post in this thread) for you:Quote Why do unanimously the disciples of John the apostle, Polycarp and Ignatius, and the other ante-nicean fathers disagree with the trinitarians?
Um just scroll back one page.
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