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Quote (Cult Buster @ Jan. 18 2007,04:13) Quote Does anyone know of any evidence that Christians between 100 AD and 200 AD (a century of Christianity after the apostles died) held the view that God was a “substance” with 3 equal and eternal multiple personalities? Whether they did or did not is irrelevent, because the Bible says that there are Three.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
Read the whole post, plz.Quote Dear Trinitarians, I hope you will think about this. I trust that you will be as honest, with yourself as possible, when you read this. Nobody from the forums will know what you are thinking. So it's OK.
Does anyone know of any evidence that Christians between 100 AD and 200 AD (a century of Christianity after the apostles died) held the view that God was a “substance” with 3 equal and eternal multiple personalities?
Is there any evidence that the trinity doctrine, as described in the Athanasian Creed, was understood and believed?
I am not aware of any evidence. What are we left with then if indeed there is none?
The possibilities that come to my mind:
1. The Godhead was not understood by anybody, after the apostles, until 300 years later when men finally got it right. Yet, simultaneously these same inspired men founded the heretical Roman Catholic Church.
2. The apostles believed and taught the trinity and passed this knowledge down through the centuries. Yet, no evidence of an unbroken apostolic succession of this knowledge is apparently available or evidence for it was erased somehow. The writings of the early Christian disciples after the apostles were all done by heretics who unamiously agreed to supress the truth and who then were willing to be martyred for a faith they knew they were lying about.
3. The trinity is a man made doctrine that evolved over time and was not taught by the apostles or their disciples and is therefore a new foundation and a new gospel. Paul declares such new teachings accursed. Galatians 1:8
When you read the above does it not make you pause? When you consider this does any part of you think that you may indeed be misunderstanding the scriptures? Be honest, can you acknowledge this dilemma without even batting an eye?
I'm not saying you are purposefully twisting scriptures, rather you are just like every Christian searching for truth. Millions of Christians read their bible everyday and believe it to be saying different things. Millions of other Christians feel that they are being led in their understanding by the Holy Spirit. Obviously, millions of Christians are wrong since they can't all be right.
Now, before you say that none of this matters because you read your bible and it agrees with your position. These very same early Christians read their bibles too. They quoted it so many times that if we were to loose all the NT manuscripts in the world we could still piece it back together again by simply drawing the verses forth from their writings.
It is obvious that the problem is not whether someone reads and believes what the bible says, the issue is how one intereprets the information in the bible. These same early Christians teach the view of the Godhead directly from the same bible the trinitarians teach their view from.
Could I be the real fool?
Yes, I could be, but I'll be damned if I am not going to be the most honest fool I can be. Feel free to interpret that metaphorically or literally.
Morning Star
The path of those who believe not the scriptures leads them to wander off looking for ghost or someting else to trust in.
As believers in the scriptures we have the best witness of all.
The testimonys and words of the Fathers themselves.
We have a choice to make!
We can believe the scriptures that we have as being true and the inspired word of God, or we can choose to wander off looking for something else.
The scriptures have stood the test of time.
The scriptures is the foundation of the Christian faith. Why?
Because it is the words of the Apostles and Prophets of which the Church of Jesus Christ is built on Jesus being the chief cornerstone.And the Holy Spirit fills that Church uniting the Body of Christ making men “living Epistles”.
II Tim 3:
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Are you looking for a smoking gun?
If you were to find one its probably a fabrication of man.
I believe you are being honest. I believe that you struggle with certain scriptures and are honest enough to admit it.
Our faith must be based on the scriptures and the Holy Spirit that brings light to those scriptures.
Scripture is important. Jesus quoted much scripture.
Its a dangerous thing to go outside of the scriptures. It is true that other writtings may bring some understanding of scripture.
The scriptures are the final authority!
Jesus said….
Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.How important is that?
You say…
Quote 1. The Godhead was not understood by anybody, after the apostles, until 300 years later when men finally got it right. Yet, simultaneously these same inspired men founded the heretical Roman Catholic Church. 2. The apostles believed and taught the trinity and passed this knowledge down through the centuries. Yet, no evidence of an unbroken apostolic succession of this knowledge is apparently available or evidence for it was erased somehow. The writings of the early Christian disciples after the apostles were all done by heretics who unamiously agreed to supress the truth and who then were willing to be martyred for a faith they knew they were lying about.
3. The trinity is a man made doctrine that evolved over time and was not taught by the apostles or their disciples and is therefore a new foundation and a new gospel. Paul declares such new teachings accursed. Galatians 1:8
Take you pick of which one you believe.
One? Two? Three?
Either way you have no proof that the trinity was or was not taught by the Early Fathers.
We have the scriptures!
Thanks for your reply, WJ.
I would like to point out, however, as I did in the post you quoted. I Do Believe the Scriptures.
So did the early Christians. That is not the issue. It is in interpreting the scriptures that the readers diverge.
I am simplying implying that if no christians believed the trinity doctrine up until 3 centuries after Christ then perhaps trinitarians are misinterpreting the scripture.
I repeat the issue is not either group disbelieving the scripture it is interpretation.
Quote Thanks for your reply, WJ. I would like to point out, however, as I did in the post you quoted. I Do Believe the Scriptures.
So did the early Christians. That is not the issue. It is in interpreting the scriptures that the readers diverge.
I am simplying implying that if no christians believed the trinity doctrine up until 3 centuries after Christ then perhaps trinitarians are misinterpreting the scripture.
I repeat the issue is not either group disbelieving the scripture it is interpretation.
MS
No scripture is to be for any private interpretation. It speaks for itself.
Yes there are different interpretations. This is why we have the dialogue.
Qustion is if one is convinced of his or her interpretation.
I am! Not to say that I am not open to learning or change.
I have looked at all the scriptures for both sides. This is basically what I see.
Trinitarians believe in the Father.
Trinitarians do not deny the birth of the Son Jesus as a man.
Trinitarians believe that God is One.
Trinitarians believe that the Holy Spirit is more than a force or a power, but is personal and a seperate person from the Father and the Son.
In looking and comparing “all” scriptures, trinitarians belief that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One God best depicts all of the scriptures.
When men have to throw out or ignore certain “obvious” scriptures where there is no room for interpretation, then is when there is doubt.
For me to give up my trinitarian view I would have to ignore to much of the scriptures.
Blessings
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 18 2007,16:59) Quote Thanks for your reply, WJ. I would like to point out, however, as I did in the post you quoted. I Do Believe the Scriptures.
So did the early Christians. That is not the issue. It is in interpreting the scriptures that the readers diverge.
I am simplying implying that if no christians believed the trinity doctrine up until 3 centuries after Christ then perhaps trinitarians are misinterpreting the scripture.
I repeat the issue is not either group disbelieving the scripture it is interpretation.
MS
No scripture is to be for any private interpretation. It speaks for itself.
Yes there are different interpretations. This is why we have the dialogue.
Qustion is if one is convinced of his or her interpretation.
I am! Not to say that I am not open to learning or change.
I have looked at all the scriptures for both sides. This is basically what I see.
Trinitarians believe in the Father.
Trinitarians do not deny the birth of the Son Jesus as a man.
Trinitarians believe that God is One.
Trinitarians believe that the Holy Spirit is more than a force or a power, but is personal and a seperate person from the Father and the Son.
In looking and comparing “all” scriptures, trinitarians belief that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit as One God best depicts all of the scriptures.
When men have to throw out or ignore certain “obvious” scriptures where there is no room for interpretation, then is when there is doubt.
For me to give up my trinitarian view I would have to ignore to much of the scriptures.
Blessings
I agree with you.Except!
I am not Trinitarian. I see my view in the scriptures. Then I find out that the early christians agree with my position.
Talk about an affirmation!
You Said:
When men have to throw out or ignore certain “obvious” scriptures where there is no room for interpretation, then is when there is doubt.
What are these?
MS
You say…
Quote I am not Trinitarian. I see my view in the scriptures. Then I find out that the early christians agree with my position. Not all of them!
YOu say….
Quote What are these? Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was madeCol 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodilyPhi 2:6
Who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be equal with GodTit 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ1Ti 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness God was manifest in the flesh1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.Isa 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega (Jesus speaking), the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.Mic 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Heb 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.1Jo 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.Isa 40:3
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.Gen 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image,Heb 1:6
And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.Joh 20:28,29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God (Theos).
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Mar 2:28
herefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
Exo 20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:Joh 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
(John didnt refute the statement of the Jews, in fact if John wasnt a trinitarian then he wouldnt have quoted them without denying their claim.)Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.Acts 7:59,
“And they stoned Stephen, “calling upon God”, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”By no means is this all of them, but remember the scriptures were inspired by God, it is Gods book to man.
A biography if you will of God.If one writes a book about himself then surely it would speak of himself.
Pss 40:11
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which **testify of me**.Everything in the Bible points to Jesus my friend for it “pleased the Father” that in him should all the fullness dwell, by him all things consist.
What created being could contain all of God?
Hi W,
Was Jesus a man?
Did he contain himself?
You speak of him as if he constantly surreptitiously alleged that he was a deity, drawing attention to his own importance.
I find that utterly contrary to his nature as shown in Phil 2 and throughout scripture, a humble nature we are meant to imitate.Quote Hi W,
Was Jesus a man?
Did he contain himself?
You speak of him as if he constantly surreptitiously alleged that he was a deity, drawing attention to his own importance.
I find that utterly contrary to his nature as shown in Phil 2 and throughout scripture, a humble nature we are meant to imitate.NH
I know its hard to understand with an Arian view!
The Word/God did not cease to be the Word/God when he came in the flesh.
Quote Hi W,
Did he become a man just like us?
Was he humble or a skite?His Body was concieved NH, and he/his Spirit entered that body at conception taking on the form of a man.
Believe the scriptures…
Pss 40:7
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,Nature itself shows that no creature can change its molecular structure and become and cease to be what it was and become another creature or something else.
This is evolution! Evolution is false and untrue!
Jesus the Word/God did not go thruogh an evolutionary process in taking on human form!
Hi W,
So he was not a real man?
Not body, soul and spirit like us?
Scripture says he was made like us in all ways except sin.
He claimed to be flesh and blood like us even after he was raised.
And it says HE died, not his body died, he died.Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.Do you believe this?
Quote Hi W,
So he was not a real man?
Not body, soul and spirit like us?
Scripture says he was made like us in all ways except sin.
He claimed to be flesh and blood like us even after he was raised.
And it says HE died, not his body died, he died.Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly
Romans 5:8
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 6:10
For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Romans 8:34
Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
Romans 14:9
For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
2 Corinthians 5:15
And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.Do you believe this?
NH
Jesus was a man, but he was the perfect man that God wanted the first adam to be, and since the first adam failed being that he was but flesh and blood.
God, the Word saw that he must do it himself and left his glory and became the savior for all men to now overcome and do what the first adam didnt.
How do we do this? Not by might nor by the natural power of a mere mortal or son of adam but by his Spirit that is in us.
That Spirit could not come and dwell in us without God preparing a body for the Word/God to dwell in so he could become the Lamb of God through his body being offered once and for all.
Jesus is not and was not a mere mortal like you and every one else who denys his deity want to make him in the name of “he has to be like us or he couldnt save us” theory.
The truth is we have to be like him the firstborn son, the second Adam and overcome the world as he did.
He is the pattern Son. Because God wants us to be like him!
If Jesus was a mere mortal then why didnt he live like a normal man?
Why all the acts of God?The way was made by him to elevate man above even the angels.
This could only be accomplished by God sending the Word and becoming one with us but not one of us!
Sin came by the first adam. But he became the righteousness of God for us as the second adam.
I Cor 15:47
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man the Lord from heaven.Do you believe this!
Hi W,
Did you not know that the Son of Man was alike to us in ALL WAYS except sin?
Did you not know that Jesus of Nazareth, a man like us, was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power?
Did you not know that God was in him and with him enabling his works of power?
Did you think he did them in his own power?No he was like us and we do not have such powers naturally so neither did he.
So we can follow him.So you should discard those human accretions to truth your masters teach you.
Quote Hi W,
Did you not know that the Son of Man was alike to us in ALL WAYS except sin?
Did you not know that Jesus of Nazareth, a man like us, was anointed with the Holy Spirit and power?
Did you not know that God was in him and with him enabling his works of power?
Did you think he did them in his own power?No he was like us and we do not have such powers naturally so neither did he.
So we can follow him.So you should discard those human accretions to truth your masters teach you
NH
Your Jesus was born in sin!
Jesus was not born of the seed of Adam but of the seed of God.
Jesus had no earthly Father therefore he was not a son of adam!
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:You and I were born in sin and every other man that is born from the bloodline of adam.
Rom 5:15
But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.All have sinned from the first adam.
I Cor 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.Hi W,
Jesus was conceived and born of Mary too.
Conception involves two parties.
Jesus was conceived in Mary just as John was conceived in Elizabeth.Sin resides in natural men though for sin to conceive and live in us we must submit to our natural lusts. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and Mary is among the all.
The inside of the cup must be cleansed just as Jesus cleansed the temple so also the temple of his body that God could take up residence there.
We can follow him.
Quote Hi W,
Jesus was conceived and born of Mary too.
Conception involves two parties.
Jesus was conceived in Mary just as John was conceived in Elizabeth.Sin resides in natural men though for sin to conceive and live in us we must submit to our natural lusts. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and Mary is among the all.
The inside of the cup must be cleansed just as Jesus cleansed the temple so also the temple of his body that God could take up residence there.
We can follow him.
NH
The blood line is from the man!
Study it. You are wrong in this!
Hi,
Geneologically?
According to the flesh Jesus was truly a son of Mary and son of Adam, a son of Man.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 18 2007,17:07) Quote Hi W,
Jesus was conceived and born of Mary too.
Conception involves two parties.
Jesus was conceived in Mary just as John was conceived in Elizabeth.Sin resides in natural men though for sin to conceive and live in us we must submit to our natural lusts. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and Mary is among the all.
The inside of the cup must be cleansed just as Jesus cleansed the temple so also the temple of his body that God could take up residence there.
We can follow him.
NH
The blood line is from the man!
Study it. You are wrong in this!
So your Messiah is not the son of David?Luke 1:32
“He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.”Quote So your Messiah is not the son of David? Luke 1:32
“He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.”Whatistrue
Are you a son of Abraham?
Jesus is the fulfillment of the Prophesys of David. He is not by the natural seed of David.
Joseph was not his Father.
Matt 1:
16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations.
18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.He was the Son of David by promise, just like we are the children of Abraham by promise!
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