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BTW, what does your wife think of your mistress – Heaven.net.nz. You spend an emmense amount of time here.
Quote Ok, yum. My butler made me some sort of fish sandwich. I'll ring this bell and have him bring me some water.
Fish sandwich?…..not my idea of a good late night snack….Hey, a little more incidental conversation and i'll get my post count past 1000….might even beat WJ to it (although I doubt it).
Is 1:18,
I noticed your signature. I think (not sure) you have placed that there as a banner for all us non-trinitarians to see. Implying that if we don't not think Jesus is a multiple personality of God then we are going to die in our sins.
First of all it doesn't say that we must believe he is God. He qualifies it in the very next verse.
John 8:25
25So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.He has claimed to be the Christ and the Son of God.
I believe those things and am not a trinitarian.
Also you imply that Jesus is making a reference to the burning bush. I don't think he is. However, if he is, I believe Jesus is the angel that spoke those very words in the first place.
There are Three separate Beings, each God and equal with one another. Though they hold different offices, they are nevertherless each God.
Three Divine beings within the Godhead with three different offices they choose to perform,
H2O can exist in three different realities, yet remain H2)
•Ice
•Liquid
•or SteamEach Person of the Godhead can choose a different office, yet remain God.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
Hi CB,
Remember the children's story-the emperor is wearing no clothes?
You are not serving Christ or his God frantically trying to bolster the works of Constantine and the leaders of the apostasy.
Sincerity and zeal when misplaced are a sad sight.Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 07 2007,04:28) If Paul wanted to convey that Jesus was “first-created” he certainly could have used the word “prōtoktistos” meaning “first-created” to do so (cf. 2 Cor. 5:18: kaine ktisis, “new creation”). But he did not, instead he used “prōtotokos”. This word is used by NT authors to affirm “priority in importance” or “rank”.
Nobody is saying Jesus was first-created as far as I know. Rather that he is the first begotten.Begotten and created are different.
Quote (Morning Star @ Jan. 11 2007,05:48) Is 1:18, I noticed your signature. I think (not sure) you have placed that there as a banner for all us non-trinitarians to see. Implying that if we don't not think Jesus is a multiple personality of God then we are going to die in our sins.
First of all it doesn't say that we must believe he is God. He qualifies it in the very next verse.
John 8:25
25So they said to him, “Who are you?” Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been telling you from the beginning.He has claimed to be the Christ and the Son of God.
I believe those things and am not a trinitarian.
Also you imply that Jesus is making a reference to the burning bush. I don't think he is. However, if he is, I believe Jesus is the angel that spoke those very words in the first place.
Amen Morning Star.
Quote (Cult Buster @ Jan. 11 2007,08:05) There are Three separate Beings, each God and equal with one another. Though they hold different offices, they are nevertherless each God. Three Divine beings within the Godhead with three different offices they choose to perform,
H2O can exist in three different realities, yet remain H2)
•Ice
•Liquid
•or SteamEach Person of the Godhead can choose a different office, yet remain God.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Isaiah 6:3 says, “And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
” Did you catch that? That's one “holy” for each person of the Godhead!
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
All praise to God the Father… God the Son Jesus Christ… and God the Holy Spirit! ALL Three merit perfect praise. Holy, Holy, Holy! If there is only one God they would not have repeated the worshipful praise three times.
Holy! Holy! Holy!
Yes we know all about this false doctrine.BTW: In answer to your last statement, there is only one God. This is the first commandment. The apostasy that calls itself the Trinity Doctrine appears to deny this commandment and tramples into the mud precious truths about Jesus revealed in scripture.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 11 2007,13:38) Hi CB,
Remember the children's story-the emperor is wearing no clothes?
You are not serving Christ or his God frantically trying to bolster the works of Constantine and the leaders of the apostasy.
Sincerity and zeal when misplaced are a sad sight.
That's correct Nick.Being sincerely wrong is still wrong.
I have an idea since scripture is apparently to ambiguous to decipher why don't we ask the apostles who wrote it what they meant.
Oh, shoot. They died.
Well, then lets ask the churches whom they wrote the letters to. Like the church at Smyrna, Jesus was please with Smyrna.
Oh, shoot. They died too.
Well, then lets ask the second generations of christians what traditions were passed on and what their parents and prebysters taught them.
Oh, shoot. They are dead too.
BUT WAIT!
These second and third generation christians left us thousands of letters explaining all their teaching and traditions passed down to them through apostolic succession.
*read read read* Oh, I certainly don't like what they wrote so I will ignore their witness and continue to believe what Constantine and his cronies believed.
Yes that is pretty much it.
Everybody was wrong until Constantine came along. Even Jesus and Paul were wrong.
But Constantine made it all right in the end. He promoted the Trinity Doctrine and made that the foundation and got political backing.
So long as we follow after Constantine, we will not die in our sins. So long as we believe that God is three we are saved.
If we believe that there is one God the Father, then we are deceived, so it seems.
YEAH RIGHT!
Who would believe that garbage. Apparently many do. Even some who come here so it seems. Their post prove this to be so.
But God will judge us all for what we have said and taught. We will all receive wages.
Written by Irenaeus a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the Apostle John.
Irenaeus Against Heresies book III
Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter. Luke also, the companion of Paul, recorded in a book the Gospel preached by him. Afterwards, John, the disciple of the Lord, who also had leaned upon His breast, did himself publish a Gospel during his residence at Ephesus in Asia.
These have all declared to us that there is one God, Creator of heaven and earth, announced by the law and the prophets; and one Christ the Son of God. If any one do not agree to these truths, he despises the companions of the Lord; nay more, he despises Christ Himself the Lord; yea, he despises the Father also, and stands self-condemned, resisting and opposing his own salvation, as is the case with all heretics.
Think about this Trinitarians. This is a test of honesty. Are you really interpreting scripture without bias? All these early fathers disagree with you. These are the fathers who don't believe in killing who live without wealth and who turn the other cheek.
Sadly, trinitarians instead follow after the doctrines of Augustine and his kind who butchered the gospel of the kingdom. The fathers you agree with are the ones who recommended burning at the stake and torture.
You will know them by their fruit.
You may say, I only follow scripture, I don't care about these men. Well, that is a lie, this is about honesty. We are not immune to the hundreds of years of false teachings warping the plain truths of the gospel. Even our translations are biased. Lets be honest.
These men were disciples of the apostles. They are way before the Roman Catholic church. They walked with godly men. They died like martyrs for their faith. Give them a chance and see the scripture through their eyes. They don't ignore the scriptures they simply understand them differently.
Once you understand what they are saying and then go back and re-read the New Testament it will blow you away.
Tatian 2nd century
God was in the beginning; but the beginning, we have been taught, is the power of the Logos. For the Lord of the universe, who is Himself the necessary ground (upostasiv) of all being, in as much as no creature was yet in existence, was alone; but in as much as He was all power, Himself the necessary ground of things visible and invisible, with Him were all things; with Him, by Logos-power (dia logikhv dunamewv), the Logos Himself also, who was in Him, subsists.(12) And by His simple will the Logos springs forth; and the Logos, not coming forth in vain,
becomes the first-begotten work of the Father.
Him (the Logos) we know to be the beginning of the world. But He came into being by participation,(13) not by abscission; for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function,(14) does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Logos, coming forth from the Logos-power of the Father, has not divested of the Logos-power Him who begat Him. I myself, for instance, talk, and you hear; yet, certainly, I who converse do not become destitute of speech (logov) by the transmission of speech, but by the utterance of my voice I endeavour to reduce to order the unarranged matter in your minds. And as the Logos(15) begotten in the beginning, begat in turn our world, having first created for Himself the necessary matter, so also I, in imitation of the Logos, being begotten again,(16) and having become possessed of the truth, am trying to reduce to order the confused matter which is kindred with myself. For matter is not, like God, without beginning, nor, as having no beginning, is of equal power with God ; it is begotten, and not produced by any other being, but brought into existence by the Framer of all things alone.
Theopholis of Antioch book II
And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coeval with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal(18) within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting(19) Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things.
Jesus is of the substance of God being begotten of the Father but he is not God.
God is the Father, God is one. God has no equal.
Jesus is divine as the son of God.
Chapter I.-His Own Sufferings; Exhortation to Stedfastness.
From Syria even unto Rome I fight with beasts not that I am devoured by brute beasts, for these, as ye know, by the will of God, spared Daniel, but by beasts in the shape of men, in whom the merciless wild beast himself lies hid, and pricks and wounds me day by day. But none of these hardships “move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself,”(1) in such a way as to love it better than the Lord. Wherefore I am prepared for [encountering] fire, wild beasts, the sword or the cross, so that only I may see Christ my Saviour and God, who died for me. I therefore, the prisoner of Christ, who am driven along by land and sea, exhort you: “stand fast in the faith,”(2) and be ye steadfast, “for the just shall live by faith; “(3) be ye unwavering, for “the Lord causes those to dwell in a house who are of one and the same character.”(4)
Chapter II.-Cautions Against False Doctrine.
I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born [only(5) ] in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance; others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all.(6) Others, again, hold that He is a mere man, and others that this flesh is not to rise again, so that our proper course is to live and partake of a life of pleasure, for that this is the chief good to beings who are in a little while to perish. A swarm of such evils has burst in upon us.(7) But ye have not “given place by subjection to them, no, not for one hour.”(8) For ye are the fellow-citizens as well as the disciples of Paul, who “fully preached the Gospel from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum,”(9) and bare about “the marks of Christ” in his flesh.(10)
Chapter III.-The True Doctrine Respecting Christ.
Mindful of him, do ye by all means know that Jesus the Lord was truly born of Mary, being made of a woman; and was as truly crucified. For, says he, “God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of the Lord Jesus.”(11) And He really suffered, and died, and rose again. For says [Paul], “If Christ should become passible, and should be the first to rise again from the dead.”(12) And again, “In that He died, He died unto sin once: but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.”(13) Otherwise, what advantage would there be in [becoming subject to] bonds, if Christ has not died? what advantage in patience? what advantage in [enduring] stripes? And why such facts as the following: Peter was crucified; Paul and James were slain with the sword; John was banished to Patmos; Stephen was stoned to death by the Jews who killed the Lord? But, [in truth, ] none of these sufferings were in vain; for the Lord was really crucified by the ungodly.
Chapter IV.-Continuation.
And [know ye, moreover], that He who was born of a woman was the Son of God, and He that was crucified was “the first-born of every creature,”(14) and God the Word, who also created all things. For says the apostle, “There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things.”(15) And again, “For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus; “(16) and, “By Him were all things created that are in heaven, and on earth, visible and invisible; and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist.”(17)
Chapter V.-Refutation of the Previously Mentioned Errors.
And that He Himself is not God over all, and the Father, but His Son, He [shows when He] says, “I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.”(18) And again, “When all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall He also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.”(19) Wherefore it is one [Person] who put all things under, and who is all in all, and another [Person] to whom they were subdued, who also Himself, along with all other things, becomes subject [to the former].
Chapter VI.-Continuation.
Nor is He a mere man, by whom and in whom all things were made; for “all things were made by Him.”(20) “When He made the heaven, I was present with Him; and I was there with Him, forming [the world along with Him], and He rejoiced in me daily.”(21) And how could a mere man be addressed in such words as these: “Sit Thou at My right hand? “(22) And how, again, could such an one declare: “Before Abraham was, I am? “(23) And, “Glorify Me with Thy glory which I had before the world was? “(24) What man could ever say, “I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me? “(25) And of what man could it be said, “He was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not? “(26) How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,(27) and the Word was God.”(28) And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me.”(
Justin Martyr's apology that the Word appeared as the angel of the Lord.
“Moses, then, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God, sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by Another who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal intercourse with none, whom we believe to be Maker and Father of all things; for he speaks thus: ‘God appeared to him under the oak in Mamre….’…. I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things – above whom there is no other God – wishes to announce to them….He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things – numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world – above whom there is no other God – has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with.…The Scripture just quoted by me will make this plain to you. It is thus: ‘The sun was risen on the earth, and Lot entered into Segor (Zoar); and the Lord rained on Sodom sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and overthrew these cities and all the neighbourhood.’…He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who [remains] in the heavens, i.e., the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrah the [judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms: ‘The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.’” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 56)
Further Quotations from Justin Martyr:
“God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father’s will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will; just as we see happening among ourselves: for when we give out some word, we beget the word; yet not by abscission, so as to lessen the word [which remains] in us, when we give it out: and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled [another], but remains the same; and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled. The Word of Wisdom…is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter….” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 61)
“…this Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him; even as the Scripture by Solomon has made clear, that He whom Solomon calls Wisdom, was begotten as a Beginning before all His creatures and as Offspring by God….He [is] God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 62)
“…you must not imagine that the unbegotten God Himself came down or went up from any place. For the ineffable Father and Lord of all neither has come to any place, nor walks, nor sleeps, nor rises up, but remains in His own place, wherever that is, quick to behold and quick to hear, having neither eyes nor ears, but being of indescribable might; and He sees all things, and knows all things, and none of us escapes His observation; and He is not moved or confined to a spot in the whole world, for He existed before the world was made. How, then, could He talk with any one, or be seen by any one, or appear on the smallest portion of the earth…? Therefore neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will; whom also it pleased Him to be born man by the Virgin; who also was fire when He conversed with Moses from the bush. Since, unless we thus comprehend the Scriptures, it must follow that the Father and Lord of all had not been in heaven when what Moses wrote took place: ‘And the Lord rained upon Sodom fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven;’ and again, when it is thus said by David: ‘Lift up your gates, ye rulers; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting gates; and the King of glory shall enter;’ and again, when He says: ‘The Lord says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.’” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 127)
“Christ [is] Lord, and God the Son of God,…appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush….they call Him the Word, because He carries tidings from the Father to men: but maintain that this power is indivisible and inseparable from the Father, just as they say that the light of the sun on earth is indivisible and inseparable from the sun in the heavens; as when it sinks, the light sinks along with it; so the Father, when He chooses, say they, causes His power to spring forth, and when He chooses, He makes it return to Himself….And that this power which the prophetic word calls God, as has been also amply demonstrated, and Angel, is not numbered [as different] in name only like the light of the sun but is indeed something numerically distinct, I have discussed briefly in what has gone before; when I asserted that this power was begotten from the Father, by His power and will, but not by abscission, as if the essence of the Father were divided; as all other things partitioned and divided are not the same after as before they were divided: and, for the sake of example, I took the case of fires kindled from a fire, which we see to be distinct from it, and yet that from which many can be kindled is by no means made less, but remains the same.” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 128)
“When Scripture says, ‘The Lord rained fire from the Lord out of heaven,’ the prophetic word indicates that there were two in number: One upon the earth, who, it says, descended to behold the cry of Sodom; Another in heaven, who also is Lord of the Lord on earth, as He is Father and God; the cause of His power and of His being Lord and God. Again, when the Scripture records that God said in the beginning, ‘Behold, Adam has become like one of Us,’ this phrase, ‘like one of Us,’ is also indicative of number; and the words do not admit of a figurative meaning, as the sophists endeavour to affix on them, who are able neither to tell nor to understand the truth. And it is written in the book of Wisdom: ‘If I should tell you daily events, I would be mindful to enumerate them from the beginning. The Lord created me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He formed the earth, and before He made the depths, and before the springs of waters came forth, before the mountains were settled; He begets me before all the hills.’…the Scripture has declared that this Offspring was begotten by the Father before all things created; and that which is begotten is numerically distinct from that which begets, any one will admit.” (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 129)
Hi MS,
There is a thread on the traditionalist philosopher Justin Martyr.
He stepped off the path of simple truth and we should not follow him.Hi MS,
The scripturally unsupported opinion of Justin on these matters is as useful as yours or mine.Quote Yes that is pretty much it. Everybody was wrong until Constantine came along. Even Jesus and Paul were wrong.
But Constantine made it all right in the end. He promoted the Trinity Doctrine and made that the foundation and got political backing.
So long as we follow after Constantine, we will not die in our sins. So long as we believe that God is three we are saved.
If we believe that there is one God the Father, then we are deceived, so it seems.
YEAH RIGHT!
Who would believe that garbage. Apparently many do. Even some who come here so it seems. Their post prove this to be so.
But God will judge us all for what we have said and taught. We will all receive wages.
t8
Dont forget Arius, Polycarp and Ignatius.
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