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Quote Can't help but like your humour Dave (even though I detest your christology). So….are you saying that YHWH and someone else was involved in creating the heavens and the earth? Wait a second. This thread is: “Question to trinitiarians.”
so as I said to WJ, I think I will be asking the questions in this thread, unless you want to ask some trinitarians a questions.
Quote (david @ Jan. 10 2007,07:09) Quote So….are you saying that YHWH and someone else was involved in creating the heavens and the earth? I'm saying that Jehovah created the heavens and earth through his son.
I would never speak of Jesus as the creator. He isn't. Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. But he used his son to do it.
Interesting….so do I take that as a 'yes'?Quote But my question to you was:
“If Mr. King builds a temple (the one who supplies the funds, etc), and has his son, Mr. King II does the actual planning and designing etc, does that neccesite that they are one person?”
My answer to this is 'no'.Quote I'm saying that Jehovah created the heavens and earth through his son.
I would never speak of Jesus as the creator. He isn't. Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. But he used his son to do it.DAVID
Is the designer of a building the creator? Yes
Is the builder of the building also the creator? yes
Look again….
Heb 1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?David the context here shows Jesus as the one who laid the foundations of the earth.
Jesus is Co-Creator of the creation.
Quote So….are you saying that YHWH and someone else was involved in creating the heavens and the earth? Quote Interesting….so do I take that as a 'yes Again, I'll be asking the questions here.
1. So, do you take that as a “yes.”
I'm just being difficult. I should have went to sleep a while ago.
2. Was Jesus “involved” in creating the heavens and earth?
It's funny how for the most part everyone agrees except:
One group believes Jesus is a mulitple personality of God
The Other group believes Jesus is preincarnate begotten son who is the express image of his father.
It is interesting how it took a couple hundred years for men to believe that God has multiple personalities.
This basically boils down to a fear of polytheism in my opinion.
BTW Dave, this thread was called “question (singular) to the trinitarians”, it doesn't give you license to cross examine the trinitarians 'till the cows come home'….thats a “newsie” phrase, I think….
Quote Is the builder of the building also the creator? yes I'm not sure about that.
It is because of God's will that they existed and were created. (Rev 4:11)
If Solomon's temple is built by workers, are they considered the creators?
They are the builders. The creator would be solomon.Quote Truth or Tradition? » Question to the Trinitarians Quote BTW Dave, this thread was called “question (singular) to the trinitarians”, it doesn't give you license to cross examine the trinitarians 'till the cows come home'….thats a “newsie” phrase, I think…. I know. I'm just having fun and I'm sleepy, as I've said.
1. No, I do not believe someone other than YHWH was involved. This belief is in strict accordance with scripture:
Isaiah 44:24
Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myselfJob 9:6-8
Then Job answered and said,
6Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble. 7 Which commandeth the sun, and it riseth not; and sealeth up the stars.8Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.2. No. “Jesus” was not.
Quote It is interesting how it took a couple hundred years for men to believe that God has multiple personalities. Yes, it is interesting, isn't it. I have an idea: Let's bury that thought in the sand and forget it exists. Apparently, immediately after the apostles died off, there was a complete flip in thinking and the “church fathers” as they are called had it all wrong, but luckily, that was corrected through hundreds of years of twisted thinking and greek philisophical terms.
Can anyone say: henotheists?
Quote Jesus is Co-Creator of the creation. –WJ
Quote No. “Jesus” was not. –Is 1:18
I think I'll let you two discuss this for a while. I'm going to go make a sandwich.
david
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Jan. 10 2007,07:29) 2. No. “Jesus” was not.
Matthew 1:21-21
21″She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” 22Now all this took place to fulfill what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet: 23″BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL,” which translated means, “GOD WITH US.” 24And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.Luke 2:21
And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.Quote (david @ Jan. 10 2007,07:34) I think I'll let you two discuss this for a while. I'm going to go make a sandwich. david
It's unhealthy to eat a meal immediately before you sleep….So, have you two worked it out yet? This is what troubles me: It seems there are so many different schools of thought, as to what the trinity is. Anyway,
Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures.—Mt 19:4-6
The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6)
Since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9)
Rather than a co-Creator, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked.GENESIS 1:26
“And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.””COLOSSIANS 1:16
“because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.”HEBREWS 1:2
“has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.”Quote It's unhealthy to eat a meal immediately before you sleep…. Ya, I know. I haven't made the sandwich yet. Maybe I'll just go drink some water. Be back in a minute.
Quote Luke 2:21
And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.If you could make your point more clear….
Ok, yum. My butler made me some sort of fish sandwich. I'll ring this bell and have him bring me some water.
Quote (david @ Jan. 10 2007,07:40) Quote Luke 2:21
And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.If you could make your point more clear….
The Logos was made flesh David, read John's prologue. He was named Yahshua by His earthly parents on the eight day after His birth, not before.
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