Question to the Trinitarians

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
The Spirit manifests in the Word and the sons of God are led by the Spirit, if they allow the Spirit to lead them. The bread of life is Spirit and life to us and God and Jesus and the angels rejoice when men are able to let the Spirit rule us and say through us;

“You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God”
NOT
“You are a member of a trinity God in flesh”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi W, The Spirit manifests in the Word and the sons of God are led by the Spirit, if they allow the Spirit to lead them. The bread of life is Spirit and life to us and God and Jesus and the angels rejoice when men are able to let the Spirit rule us and say through us; “You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God” NOT “You are a member of a trinity God in flesh”

NH

Is Jesus the Word/God one with the Spirit? You talk about being led by the Spirit. Who is the Spirit you talk about?

Heres the evidence. Why do you turn from the truth?

Open your eyes. The Spirit is God!

Jn 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

II Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

You should accept the scriptures as they are, and stop trying to make them fit in an Arian view.

I Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

I Cor 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

I Cor 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

II Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, **I will dwell in them**, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Your body is the temple NH God should be living there.

II cor. 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that **Jesus Christ is in you**, except ye be reprobates?

The word there for Jesus is “Yashua”. It literrally means that Jesus lives in us. It is his Spirit! The Lord is that Spirit!

John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

The world sees him not niether knows him. If he is a force or power, how could the world not know him?

Notice to that Jesus says “I will come to you”.

Does Jesus live in you? Not some representitave of him.

The Holy Spirit is divinely and unequelly and wonderfully united together as one with the Father and the Son!

Examine these scriptures closely NH. And you will see Father,Son And Holy Spirit, God.  

[NickHassan]

Hi W,
The Holy Spirit.
The Spirit of God.
The Spirit of Christ
The Spirit of truth
The Spirit of life.

One SPIRIT.
You will recognise the finger of God in the Word of God.
Submit to the Spirit in the Word and allow the Teacher to reveal the beauty therein.

[942767]

HI WJ:

What does Hebrews 1:3 mean when it states that Jesus is THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORYAND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS (that is God's) PERSON?

Thanks, and God Bless

[david]

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David Is God a Spirit? Or is he just a breath or wind or force? Jn 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. Same greek word “pneuma” in Jn 4:24! Just use common sence. God is a Spirit. Holy Spirit is God! A child can see that!

Let's discuss something a child does know. The word “pneumonia.”

hmmm. Show a child that word and show a child the greek word pneuma.

This child may spot a similarity.

What is the meaning of pneuma? This word “primarily denotes 'the wind' (akin to pneo, 'to breathe, blow'); also 'breath'; then, especially 'the spirit,' which, like the wind, is invisible, immaterial and powerful”
We can see that Greek root in several modern English words such as pneumonia, which is an acute infection of the human respiratory system; pneumatic, referring to something powered by air pressure; and the science of pneumatics, which studies the properties of air and other gases. All of these have to do with air, breathing, wind or being powered by air. When you breathe, what is your body doing? It is creating wind going into and out of the body; breathing is simply creating wind on a small scale.
After Jesus showed them the wounds in His hands and side, verifying that He had indeed been raised from the dead, John records that Jesus said: ” 'Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.' And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit [pneuma]' ” (John 20:21-22).

[Is 1:18]

Hi Mercy,

I wrote:

Quote

Okay. Now we are getting to the core of this issue. Let's see from you some quotes showing unequivically that the church Fathers believed that the Logos was a created being. Maybe you could start with “the disciples of John the apostle, Polycarp and Ignatius”

You responded with:

Quote

. . . But our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We also have as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For “the Word was made flesh.” (pp. 110-111, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”) 1. . . . For the Son of God, who was begotten before time began, and established all things according to the will of the Father, He was conceived in the womb of Mary, according to the appointment of God, of the seed of David, and by the Holy Ghost. (p. 120, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”) . . . Do ye all come together in common, and individually, through grace, in one faith of God the Father, and of Jesus Christ His only-begotten Son, and “the first-born of every creature,” but of the seed of David according to the flesh . . . (p. 122, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians”) . . . Jesus Christ. He, being begotten by the Father before the beginning of time, was God the Word, the only-begotten Son, and remains the same for ever . . . (p. 129, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers,”The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians”) . . . Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the Virgin Mary without any intercourse with man. . . . To those who had fallen into the error of polytheism He made known the one and only true God, His Father . . . (p. 134, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians”) . . . One of the ancients gives us this advice, “Let no man be called good who mixes good with evil.” For they speak of Christ, not that they may preach Christ, but that they may reject Christ; and they speak of the law, not that they may establish the law, but that they may proclaim things contrary to it. For they alienate Christ from the Father, and the law from Christ. They also calumniate His being born of the Virgin; they are ashamed of His cross; they deny His passion; and they do not believe His resurrection. They introduce God as a Being unknown; they suppose Christ to be unbegotten; and as to the Spirit, they do not admit that He exists. Some of them say that the Son is a mere man, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are but the same person, and that the creation is the work of God, not by Christ, but by some other strange power. (p. 142, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Trallians”) Nor is He a mere man, by whom and in whom all things were made; for “all things were made by Him.” “When He made the heaven, I was present with Him; and I was there with Him, forming [the world along with Him], and He rejoiced in me daily.” And how could a mere man be addressed in such words as these: “Sit Thou at My right hand?” And how, again, could such an one declare: “Before Abraham was, I am?” And, “Glorify Me with Thy glory which I had before the world was?” What man could ever say, “I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me?” And of what man could it be said, “He was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world: He was in the world, and the world was made by Him, and the world knew Him not. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not?” How could such a one be a mere man, receiving the beginning of His existence from Mary, and not rather God the Word, and the only-begotten Son? For “in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And in another place, “The Lord created Me, the beginning of His ways, for His ways, for His works. Before the world did He found Me, and before all the hills did He beget Me.” (p. 213, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “The Epistle of Ignatius to the Tarsians”) “I shall give you another testimony, my friends,” said I, “from the Scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning, [who was] a certain rational power [proceeding] from Himself, who is called by the Holy Spirit, now the Glory of the Lord, now the Son, again Wisdom, again an Angel, then God, and then Lord and Logos; and on another occasion He calls Himself Captain, when He appeared in human form to Joshua the son of Nave (Nun). For He can be called by all those names, since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will . . . The Word of Wisdom, who is Himself this God begotten of the Father of all things, and Word, and Wisdom, and Power, and the Glory of the Begetter, will bear evidence to me, when He speaks by Solomon the following: 'If I shall declare to you what happens daily, I shall call to mind events from everlasting, and review them. The Lord made me the beginning of His ways for His works. From everlasting He established me in the beginning, before He had made the earth, and before He had made the deeps, before the springs of the waters had issued forth, before the mountains had been established. Before all the hills He begets me. God made the country, and the desert, and the highest inhabited places under the sky. When He made ready the heavens, I was along with Him, and when He set up His throne on the winds: when He made the high clouds strong, and the springs of the deep safe, when He made the foundations of the earth, I was with Him arranging. I was that in which He rejoiced; daily and at all times I delighted in His countenance, because He delighted in the finishing of the habitable world, and delighted in the sons of men. (pp. 453-454, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “Dialogue with Trypho”) And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses . . . Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, “He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me.” From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, “And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people.” And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race . . . (p. 351, vol. I, The Ante-Nicene Fathers, “Dialogue with Trypho”)

None of these texts explicitly state, or even allude to, Yahshua being a created being, certainly not in the sense that you have affirmed. Not one. They manytimes mention a begettal, which of course is something quite different althogether. So even though you put a lot of stock in these early church writings, we appear to
have a very significant disparity between the authors' doctrine and yours….

edited for clarity

[Worshipping Jesus]

God =Father,Son and Holy Ghost

Deut 5:7
Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Exod 23:13
And in all [things] that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Isa 45:
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

BTW. Was the Word/God with the Father when he made this statement, or was it the Father speaking?  

Isa 45:21
Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

Jer 10:10
But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Zech 14:9
And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

I Cor 8
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol [is] nothing in the world, and that [there is] none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 **But to us** [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Matt 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

I Jn 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Then we see Jn 1 and Heb 1. And of course many others.

Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Heb 1:
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Then we have…

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isa
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Rev 1:8
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Acts 20:28
Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Jn 20:
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

If you accept the above scriptures litteraly as they are, then they can only make sense from a trinitarian view.

I challange any one of you to give me scriptural proof that the above scriptures can be interpreted in any other way!

Either accept them or deny them or ignore them.

There is One God! Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

[david]

Quote

God =Father,Son and Holy Ghost

Then you list scriptures and say:

Quote

Either accept them or deny them or ignore them. There is One God! Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I'm sorry. Which of these scriptures said that God's holy spirit is God?

[david]

The holy spirit is always left out for some reason. It's left out of the visions of Stephen, John and Daniel.
It's left out of paul's (and James, Peter and John as well) many greetings from the Faher and Son.
And it's left out of your proof somehow.

For being part of an equal Godhead, the holy spirit is greatly neglected….neglected as being shown God, unlike Jehovah who is specifically called God 1000 times (without question) and many other times that arne't so specific.

[NickHassan]

Hi,
If men had never found the few scriptures that speak of the divine origins of Christ then perhaps we would still share the unity of faith -belief in the Father God. Sadly those verses have caused so many to completely be diverted from simplicity in their pathological fear of polytheism

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

The holy spirit is always left out for some reason.  It's left out of the visions of Stephen, John and Daniel. It's left out of paul's (and James, Peter and John as well) many greetings from the Faher and Son. And it's left out of your proof somehow. For being part of an equal Godhead, the holy spirit is greatly neglected….neglected as being shown God, unlike Jehovah who is specifically called God 1000 times (without question) and many other times that arne't so specific.

David

Can you seperate God from his Spirit?

Gen 1:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[david]

Quote

David Can you seperate God from his Spirit?

No more than I can separate you from your finger, or you from your breath, or you from your hand….

You get it.

Wait a second. I thought this thread was called:
Question to the trinitarians.

So, I'll be asking the questions in this thread.

[david]

so, my question:

You said:

Quote

Quote God =Father,Son and Holy Ghost Then you list scriptures and say: Quote Either accept them or deny them or ignore them. There is One God! Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I'm sorry. Which of these scriptures said that God's holy spirit is God?

Well?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

so, my question: You said: Quote   Quote God =Father,Son and Holy Ghost Then you list scriptures and say: Quote Either accept them or deny them or ignore them. There is One God! Father, Son and Holy Ghost.   I'm sorry.  Which of these scriptures said that God's holy spirit is God? Well?

David

II Cor 3:
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Jn 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

But you will not believe these words!

[Is 1:18]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 10 2007,05:57)

Jer 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

Hi WJ,
Funny that you quoted Jeremiah 10:10, I was watching a DVD debate between James White and Greg Stafford today and that same verse was raised (by White).

Here is the verse put in its immediate context:

Jeremiah 10:10-11
10But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King at His wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure His indignation. 11Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.”

In the verses leading up to vss 10 and 11 YHWH mocks the “customs of the peoples (i.e. nations)”, and in particular their idols. Then in vs 10 he identifies Himself as the true God. But in vs 11 he gives the Israelites some monotheistic apologetic material, as it were (“you shall say to them”) – they were to use His act of creation to authenticate Him as the True God. Only the true God can make the “heavens and the earth “, in contrast the false gods can make nothing.

What do the NT authors ascribe to Yahshua:

John 1:3
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Hebrews 1:2
in these last days (B)has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Hebrews 1:10
YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS

Creation, that is how the True God is to be identified.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Hi WJ, Funny that you quoted Jeremiah 10:10, I was watching a DVD debate between James White and Greg Stafford today and that same verse was raised (by White). Here is the verse put in its immediate context: Jeremiah 10:10-11 10But the LORD is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting King at His wrath the earth quakes, and the nations cannot endure His indignation. 11Thus you shall say to them, “The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.” In the verses leading up to vss 10 and 11 YHWH mocks the “customs of the peoples (i.e. nations)”, and in particular their idols. Then in vs 10 he identifies Himself as the true God. But in vs 11 he gives the Israelites some monotheistic apologetic material, as it were (“you shall say to them”) – they were to use His act of creation to authenticate Him as the True God. Only the true God can make the “heavens and the earth “, in contrast the false gods can make nothing. What do the NT authors ascribe to Yahshua: John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities–[/b]all things have been created through Him[/b] and for Him. Hebrews 1:2 in these last days (B)has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. Hebrews 1:10 YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS Creation, that is how the True God is to be identified.

Hi Isa 1:18

As usaual very elequantly put!

Amen a thousand times over!

Blessings to you and yours!

[david]

Could I ask you a question Mr. Trinitarian?

Oh, I guess I just did. Nevermind.

Can I ask you another one?

Oops. Nuts to this.

Ok, it's late, seriously, Is 1:18:

“If Mr. King builds a temple (the one who supplies the funds, etc), and has his son, Mr. King II does the actual planning and designing etc, does that neccesite that they are one person?”

Please be truthful.

I'm looking for a yes or no here.

The director could say: “I made a movie.” He could even call it “my movie.”
But so could the producer, who supplied the opportunity. It's his movie, as well, isn't it? Really, It's the producer's movie. But, the one put in charge of doing the work could also be spoken of as making the movie. Couldn't he?

[Is 1:18]

Can't help but like your humour Dave (even though I detest your christology). So….are you saying that YHWH and someone else was involved in creating the heavens and the earth?

[david]

Quote

So….are you saying that YHWH and someone else was involved in creating the heavens and the earth?

I'm saying that Jehovah created the heavens and earth through his son.
I would never speak of Jesus as the creator. He isn't. Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. But he used his son to do it.

But my question to you was:

Quote

“If Mr. King builds a temple (the one who supplies the funds, etc), and has his son, Mr. King II does the actual planning and designing etc, does that neccesite that they are one person?”

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote

Could I ask you a question Mr. Trinitarian? Oh, I guess I just did.  Nevermind. Can I ask you another one? Oops.  Nuts to this. Ok, it's late, seriously, Is 1:18: “If Mr. King builds a temple (the one who supplies the funds, etc), and has his son, Mr. King II does the actual planning and designing etc, does that neccesite that they are one person?” Please be truthful. I'm looking for a yes or no here. The director could say: “I made a movie.”  He could even call it “my movie.” But so could the producer, who supplied the opportunity.  It's his movie, as well, isn't it?  Really, It's the producer's movie.  But, the one put in charge of doing the work could also be spoken of as making the movie.  Couldn't he?

David

But could the King say he is the essence by wich the temple is built and that by the word of his power the temple is upheld?

But could the director say he is the source of the movie and by him all that pertains to the movie consist?  

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