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Why do unanimously the disciples of John the apostle, Polycarp and Ignatius, and the other ante-nicean fathers disagree with the trinitarians?
Why do the trinitarians refuse to accept that the early fathers know what they are talking about? We are seperated by 2000 years, multiple language barriers, seperate cultures and 2 milleniums filled with deception.
These early church fathers, some who actually walked, with the apostles are in a far better position of understanding the nature of Christ.
If we assume they are wrong then we have to assume they are purposefully being wrong. Because if they can't understand the truth of the matter even discussing it face to face with the apostles then we are doomed to try and understand it now. Yet, if they are purposefully wrong why would they all go and be martyred for a lie?
Think about this, they are the ones who gathered our New Testament together. If you don't trust their integrity then the foundation of your faith is very shaky.
Would some trinitarian please explain why they refuse to hear the words of the early church fathers and instead follow the doctrines of Rome formed hundreds of years later under Constantine?
Quote Why do unanimously the disciples of John the apostle, Polycarp and Ignatius, and the other ante-nicean fathers disagree with the trinitarians? Why do the trinitarians refuse to accept that the early fathers know what they are talking about? We are seperated by 2000 years, multiple language barriers, seperate cultures and 2 milleniums filled with deception.
These early church fathers, some who actually walked, with the apostles are in a far better position of understanding the nature of Christ.
If we assume they are wrong then we have to assume they are purposefully being wrong. Because if they can't understand the truth of the matter even discussing it face to face with the apostles then we are doomed to try and understand it now. Yet, if they are purposefully wrong why would they all go and be martyred for a lie?
Think about this, they are the ones who gathered our New Testament together. If you don't trust their integrity then the foundation of your faith is very shaky.
Would some trinitarian please explain why they refuse to hear the words of the early church fathers and instead follow the doctrines of Rome formed hundreds of years later under Constantine?
Mercy
I would rather believe the writers of the scriptures who walked with Jesus and talked with him.
This debate has been going on for centurys. Both sides have been at it for a long time.
Basically there are two schools of thought which pretty much have their roots in Athanasius and Arias and date back to the 4th century.
But you know what I see. I see millions of believers world wide reaching the Lost with the Gospel. I turn on my TV and I see the Gospel being preached and people getting saved and healed and delivered.
I go to my church and visit churchs everywhere and see God moving in a mighty way. People coming to the alter every sunday. Lives being changed. Jesus is being preached, the sick are being healed, the Addicts are getting delivered, marriages being restored, the Spirit of God being poured out everywhere.
And guess what?
Those that I see that are doing these things are Trinitarians.
Tell me somebody, where can I go and find this kind of fruit among Arian followers or those who dont have a trinitarian view.
Give me the name of a growing church or movement where the fruit is there that dont have a Trinitarian view.
The JWs are doing something. But Other than that, where is the movement of God among those who hold non-trinitarian views?
I am not trying to be critical here. I am sincere. Maybe its a US thing, I dont know.
If this so called truth that we hear is the work of God then it should be spreading throughout the world with fruit.
Mercy have you asked these questions?
Matt 7
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Again we have the scriptures, the direct word from Jesus recorded by his followers, the original Fathers.
If you or any body else choose to base your faith on Polycarp and Ignatius, and the other ante-nicean fathers who disagree with the trinitarians, that is you choice.
Disciples of John? LOL. John in his own writings is the biggest supporter of the trinitarian view.
Remember this…
Mk 9
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.Blessings
Quote Why do unanimously the disciples of John the apostle, Polycarp and Ignatius, and the other ante-nicean fathers disagree with the trinitarians? Why do the trinitarians refuse to accept that the early fathers know what they are talking about? We are seperated by 2000 years, multiple language barriers, seperate cultures and 2 milleniums filled with deception.
Mercy
BTW. Were the writings of these Fathers inspired?
Quote We are seperated by 2000 years, multiple language barriers, seperate cultures and 2 milleniums filled with deception. Mercy you are right.
But the trinitarian view is sweeping the world and people are coming to Jesus and being saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
I think you can hold any of those views and do great things for God. You are missing the point.
Knowing Truth!!!
You still don't address how come your belief disagrees with the disciple of John the apostle.
Honesty is all I ask.
I think I asked a very simple straight forward question that all christians who truly seek truth should take pause and consider.
You Said:
Mercy
I would rather believe the writers of the scriptures who walked with Jesus and talked with him.
This assumes that Polycarp is preaching something different. I don't think he is.
Could it be perhaps, Your view, is the one that does not believe the writers of the scriptures.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 06 2007,01:40) Quote We are seperated by 2000 years, multiple language barriers, seperate cultures and 2 milleniums filled with deception. Mercy you are right.
But the trinitarian view is sweeping the world and people are coming to Jesus and being saved and filled with the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:
38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
40 And to him they agreed: and when they had called the apostles, and beaten them, they commanded that they should not speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.
42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.
Praise God I think that it is wonderful that people are getting saved if they are really saved. Many come in Jesus' name and mislead many (Mat. 24:5).Also the path of righteousness is narrow and few are they that find it.
It has been my experience that some Christians are worse than some heathens I know. A walk to the alter and even getting wet means nothing if the heart is not right and the Father is not drawing them.
There are more weeds than wheat
Along with the alter call is the message of material wealth and other lies. All the daughters of the Harlot take up the slack of their mother with lies covered with some truth. Few dig past the lies because they like what they here. This is the very end time as Paul states they will gather for themselves teachers according to their own disires to tickle their itching ears. That's why the path to destruction is wide. Jesus gives warning that many will say Lord did we not speak in other tongues heal the sick etc. and what did Jesus say to the many “I never knew you” who commit lawlessness.
Spiritual gifts doesn't save you!Any Trinitarian care to tackle this directly as in actually adress the question.
Are the early fathers and martyrs deceivers?
Did they understand the teachings of the apostles?
Do their interpretations reflect accurate interpretations of scripture?
Could trinitarians simply be mistaken in interpretation. Not purposefully but mistaken none the less?
Quote think you can hold any of those views and do great things for God. You are missing the point. Knowing Truth!!!
You still don't address how come your belief disagrees with the disciple of John the apostle.
Honesty is all I ask.
I think I asked a very simple straight forward question that all christians who truly seek truth should take pause and consider.
Mercy
He wasnt much of a disciple of John if he didnt believe these words!
Jn 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.Jn 14:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?Jn 8:
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM , ye shall die in your sins.Jn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.Jn 9:
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.Jn 13:9
Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I AM .Jn 18:
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I AM. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM, they went backward, and fell to the ground.Jn 20:
27 Then saith he to Thomas, reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.I Jn 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)I Jn 4:
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ [Word/God] is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ [Word/God] is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.I Jn 5:
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.2 Jn 1:7
7] For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ [Word/God] is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Understand that during this time Gnostisism was a big problem back then. John reiterates Jesus coming from God, he was not just a man.Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.Rev 22:
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.Rev 5
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Again I did answer your question.II Tim 3:
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Jesus is God, One with the Father and the Spirit. Now if Johns disciple didnt believe Johns Gospel then why would you follow him?The writings or beliefs of the early fathers are not Canonical.
While we may gain some insight from them we should not base our faith on them, or build doctrines around them.
My faith is in the scriptures which many of Godly men gave their lives and even died to bring us the Holy Scriptures that we have.
You want to base your faith on them fine.
My trust is in the the Holy Spirit of truth in me and the Holy Scriptures that we have.
You dont understand my friend.
He did believe those things.
He would quote those very same verses right back at you to prove his views. He happens to have also been taught by John himself.
Here is a scenario that happens all the time. Two people will read the same verse and thinks it means different things.
It is the interpretation of the verses that differ. He believed all those very verses were true.
Polycarp vs. 21st Century Joe Trinitarian
Polycarps Credentials:
1. Disciple of John the Apostle
2. Received many oral and written teachings
3. A second generation christian message very new.
4. All the other second generation fathers agree with his view of Christ.
5. Supports all his teachings from scriptures.21st Century Joe Trinitarian Credentials:
1. Has a bible
2. Has a fully researchable history of the corruption and formation of the trinity doctrine. But ignores the obvious. Even when the Catholic Church admits they made up the doctrine.
3. Thinks since he owns a concordance he can remain more true to the teachings in the scripture than Polycarp.
4. Cannot grasp the fact that multiple people can believe the very same scripture and yet have different interpretations.
5.Can't possibly believe that it is his own interpretation that is in error.You Said:
Disciples of John? LOL. John in his own writings is the biggest supporter of the trinitarian view.
And after saying that it doesn't give you the slightest pause? Not even for a moment? “Hey what if I am not interpretating the scripture accurately?”
Polycarp was an overseer at Smyrna. We have testimony from Jesus himself that Polycarp was accurate. Why? Lets see what Jesus says about his church. Maybe even him personally if one interprets the angel of the church of Smyrna as being Polycarp himself.
Revelation 2
To the Church in Smyrna
8″To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.Jesus had nothing but good things to say, my friend.
Seriously, I hope all trinitarians will swallow their pride and at the very least reconsider their position.
Quote Praise God I think that it is wonderful that people are getting saved if they are really saved. Many come in Jesus' name and mislead many (Mat. 24:5). Also the path of righteousness is narrow and few are they that find it.
It has been my experience that some Christians are worse than some heathens I know. A walk to the alter and even getting wet means nothing if the heart is not right and the Father is not drawing them.
There are more weeds than wheat
Along with the alter call is the message of material wealth and other lies. All the daughters of the Harlot take up the slack of their mother with lies covered with some truth. Few dig past the lies because they like what they here. This is the very end time as Paul states they will gather for themselves teachers according to their own disires to tickle their itching ears. That's why the path to destruction is wide. Jesus gives warning that many will say Lord did we not speak in other tongues heal the sick etc. and what did Jesus say to the many “I never knew you” who commit lawlessness.
Spiritual gifts doesn't save you!kenrch
Is there anything in what I said that indicates even slightly that spiritual gifts saves men?
And who are you to Judge the hearts of the thousands of souls being born into the kingdom and accepting Christ in their lives?
What because the move of God in these last days will be huge fulfilling the feast of Tabernacles, bringing people by the millions into the kingdom, the pouring out of his Spirit on all flesh, the whole earth being filled with his glory, because it is big, its wrong?
Where is the rejoicing and praise to God that he is moving in churchs all over the world in a great way, and that people are comming to the kingdom?
Whats this critical Spirit toward these testimonys.
Oh yes, and I am quite sure that you are walking perfectly before God.
How about the porn, is any of that in your life? Or glutany, or lieing, or stealing?
Jn 8:7
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.Mk 9:
37 Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
Quote Polycarp vs. 21st Century Joe Trinitarian Polycarps Credentials:
1. Disciple of John the Apostle
2. Received many oral and written teachings
3. A second generation christian message very new.
4. All the other second generation fathers agree with his view of Christ.
5. Supports all his teachings from scriptures.21st Century Joe Trinitarian Credentials:
1. Has a bible
2. Has a fully researchable history of the corruption and formation of the trinity doctrine. But ignores the obvious. Even when the Catholic Church admits they made up the doctrine.
3. Thinks since he owns a concordance he can remain more true to the teachings in the scripture than Polycarp.
4. Cannot grasp the fact that multiple people can believe the very same scripture and yet have different interpretations. 5.Can't possibly believe that it is his own interpretation that is in error.Mercy
Wright back to you. Tell me how you would interpret the scriptures I post.
You dont address them , you do what all the rest do, you simply say Im wrong.
You say
Quote Can't possibly believe that it is his own interpretation that is in error. What about you could you be wrong? So it looks like we are right back where we started.
I believe what God has personally shown me from the scriptures and you believe in…
Polycarps Credentials:
1. Disciple of John the Apostle
2. Received many oral and written teachings
3. A second generation christian message very new.
4. All the other second generation fathers agree with his view of Christ.
5. Supports all his teachings from scriptures.My faith is in the scriptures and what God has shown me through Polycarps Spiritual leader Johns writings and apparantly your faith rest in other mens interpretations.
It really is no use. sigh
If you want me to go back and forth with scripture I will.
Can you at least acknowledge that it is possible for two people to have different interpretations when reading the exact same verse?
If you can, then, my premise is that Polycarp is in a far better position to claim to have the proper understanding.
As for me not addressing your verses, This post was my question to Trinitarians. It wasn't trinitarians please come ask me questions post.
I still don't have any of my reasoning or logic addressed.
Instead you simply quote some verses.
Say that is is sad that the early church fathers didnt follow their masters teachings.
Give a good message about how christians are getting saved all over through trinitarian ministries.
And accuse me of not following scripture but rather following the church fathers teachings.
My point is that my view is what the scriptures are saying.
My view is what the early church fathers are saying.
The scriptures view is what the early church fathers are saying.
The early church fathers view are what the scriptures are saying.
To top it off Jesus commends the church of Polycarp.
If you can't see these things as serious questions that need addressed then are you really interested in the truth?
Quote You Said: Disciples of John? LOL. John in his own writings is the biggest supporter of the trinitarian view.
And after saying that it doesn't give you the slightest pause? Not even for a moment? “Hey what if I am not interpretating the scripture accurately?”
Polycarp was an overseer at Smyrna. We have testimony from Jesus himself that Polycarp was accurate. Why? Lets see what Jesus says about his church. Maybe even him personally if one interprets the angel of the church of Smyrna as being Polycarp himself.
Revelation 2
To the Church in Smyrna
8″To the angel of the church in Smyrna write:
These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again. 9I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.Jesus had nothing but good things to say, my friend.
Seriously, I hope all trinitarians will swallow their pride and at the very least reconsider their position.
Mercy
Show me the scripture thats says Polycarp is the Angel of the Church in Smyrna .
Quote
Seriously, I hope all trinitarians will swallow their pride and at the very least reconsider their position.
So if a person is confident in their belief, thats pride?
Phil 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:James 1:
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.Rom 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.2 Tim 1:12
For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.Quote It really is no use. sigh If you want me to go back and forth with scripture I will.
Can you at least acknowledge that it is possible for two people to have different interpretations when reading the exact same verse?
If you can, then, my premise is that Polycarp is in a far better position to claim to have the proper understanding.
As for me not addressing your verses, This post was my question to Trinitarians. It wasn't trinitarians please come ask me questions post.
I still don't have any of my reasoning or logic addressed.
Instead you simply quote some verses.
Say that is is sad that the early church fathers didnt follow their masters teachings.
Give a good message about how christians are getting saved all over through trinitarian ministries.
And accuse me of not following scripture but rather following the church fathers teachings.
My point is that my view is what the scriptures are saying.
My view is what the early church fathers are saying.
The scriptures view is what the early church fathers are saying.
The early church fathers view are what the scriptures are saying.
To top it off Jesus commends the church of Polycarp.
If you can't see these things as serious questions that need addressed then are you really interested in the truth?
Mercy
And the early church Fathers that we should trust is the ones who walked with Jesus and wrote the inspired scriptures that we have.
Sorry if you are offended that I wont budge on this position.
Sure its possible two people can read the same verse and see differently, hence this conversation.
I guess I don understand why when I try to stay with the scriptures and not deviate then people get frustrated and upset and would prefer not look at the scriptures.
The Christian faith is based on the Bible. Why dont people that dont agree with it just make up there own and start their own religion and leave the bible alone?
Jn 1:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.My interpretation: When the world was Made Jesus was present, Jesus was with God (El) and Jesus was God(YHWH). They were both a God. God declared his sons to be gods (psalms 82) and the scriptures cannot be broken. Jesus is the firstborn unique preeminent son of God. This is what Jesus meant here:
John 10
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.” 34Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? 35If he called them gods to whom the word of God came–and Scripture cannot be broken– 36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?Here is were God gives his son the nation of Israel as an inheritence:
Deuteronomy 32:8-9
8When the Most High (EL) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided mankind,
he fixed the borders[a] of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God.
9But the LORD's (YHWH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted heritage.Jn 14:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?God made his firstborn son to be the exact glorius image of himself. Yet, only he himself is immortal, omnipotent and all knowing. Jesus only says and does what is Father wants him to. He is the revelator of the invisible God so must be like him.
Jn 8:
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I AM not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I AM , ye shall die in your sins.Jesus was the one who said I AM from the burning Bush. God gave his son the nation of Israel. Jesus is YHWH the angel of the Lord.
Jn 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.Very true.
Jn 9:
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.Sounds Great! No conflicts here.
Jn 13:9
Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I AM .I do believe he is.
Jn 18:
5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I AM. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I AM, they went backward, and fell to the ground.Powerful stuff being an appointed God and the son of the Most High.
I could keep going but I dont think i would conflict with anything else.
You Said:
The Christian faith is based on the Bible. Why dont people that dont agree with it just make up there own and start their own religion and leave the bible alone?
Arg this is what I meant. I do agree with the bible. Do you see the predicament here. I don't believe I am making up my own. I am leaving the Bible alone.
It is all in interpretation and who is doing it correctly.
For the record I love to address, study and compare scripture.
But the whole point of this post was to show that all of us keep posting scriptures back and forth back and forth. Yet, we don't change our positions. We simply understand them differently.
I wanted to demonstrate that the early church fathers, I mean the very very early ones, could help with clarity.
In particular the amazing man, Polycarp, who's church at Smyrna received praise from Jesus Christ himself.
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